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Decloaking red inactive players

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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#21 - 2015-11-08 07:43:26 UTC
ISD must be on holidays ...

Well, the standing rule of "not operating in a camped system" is just as dumb as doing it without support. If the system is worth it, people holding it should just determine what would be going to drop on them with a disposable victim and the next time just counterdrop the droppers, when they go for a juicier bait. I do not see the difference between having a standing fleet ready to undock/jump for a couple of hours from just sitting in station playing Spin My Ship.

Smaller entities might have problems organizing that (However, I know for a matter of fact from at least one small entity in the Drone Regions that they are perfectly fine countering drops from bigger droppers and even managed to drive the droppers out of their systems just by having certain people online), but especially large groups like the oh-so good SMA should be very much capable of having a BLOPS fleet or Titan bridge ready in their main system in range of valuable target systems being camped. Do this a couple of times and people will stop perma-camping your systems.

It requires effort, you say? Oh well ... too bad. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#22 - 2015-11-08 07:50:20 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Not sure why people play dumb on this issue. The problem is every ship that's cloaked in local has the potential to be sitting right next to you and the ability to open up a cyno dropping anything from a frig to an entire coalition on your head.

The fix is to do what most other games do, place the icon into dimmed after a certain period of inactivity. Why CCP refuses to make such a simple change is beyond curious.



It would help not only to improve the cloaking issue but also prevent the problem of hunting down players online but inactive rather than finding out they're inactive after spending hours using locators and spies trying to hunt them when they're not even playing.

Alternatively adding a [player name] was last active [days, hours, minutes, seconds] ago in info tab.


Nice idea, but...
If this mechanism happens, people will figure out how the game determines they're AFK, and:
1: Use it to spai
2: Wait until they're pretty sure whoever's in system isn't paying attention and drop stuff on them because the game said they were more AFK than they really were and very close to the mining action. If you think "Just warp to another belt" is a counter to that, the AFK cloaker can always warp to a belt the miners aren't mining and eventually they'll warp to the belt the covops is actually are cloaked in.

A signature :o
Iain Cariaba
#23 - 2015-11-08 07:51:23 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Active is recent input, mouse click, chat, mail whatever. Time is irrelevant really but some games go 5 mins others a few hours.

Well, I could only think of about 15 ways to get around this, without actually being at my computer, while reading this thread. Give me a few minutes and I can come up with a couple dozen more.

AFK cloakers are not the problem, it's OP's, and others like him, unwillingness to adapt to a perceived threat that is the problem.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2015-11-08 07:56:25 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
ISD must be on holidays ...

Well, the standing rule of "not operating in a camped system" is just as dumb as doing it without support. If the system is worth it, people holding it should just determine what would be going to drop on them with a disposable victim and the next time just counterdrop the droppers, when they go for a juicier bait. I do not see the difference between having a standing fleet ready to undock/jump for a couple of hours from just sitting in station playing Spin My Ship.

Smaller entities might have problems organizing that (However, I know for a matter of fact from at least one small entity in the Drone Regions that they are perfectly fine countering drops from bigger droppers and even managed to drive the droppers out of their systems just by having certain people online), but especially large groups like the oh-so good SMA should be very much capable of having a BLOPS fleet or Titan bridge ready in their main system in range of valuable target systems being camped. Do this a couple of times and people will stop perma-camping your systems.

It requires effort, you say? Oh well ... too bad. Roll

Easier said than done though. The crucial advantage the dropper has over the locals is randomness. You don't go into someone's system and start dropping. You go in cloak up and leave it for a few days, week or whatever. Add whoever is pvpr cap capable to your watch list from kill boards. Drop on someone then AFK for another random period hours days or week. Rinse repeat. Have multiple cyno cloakers and just rotate. The defending alliance cannot counter as they would be required to have 24 hour counter drop fleet on standby with every potential friendly target cyno fitted. If your watch list shows a spike of cap pilots suddenly log on or logged on the droppers will just do something else, the cloakers are just low skilled alts anyway.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2015-11-08 08:06:57 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Active is recent input, mouse click, chat, mail whatever. Time is irrelevant really but some games go 5 mins others a few hours.

Well, I could only think of about 15 ways to get around this, without actually being at my computer, while reading this thread. Give me a few minutes and I can come up with a couple dozen more.

AFK cloakers are not the problem, it's OP's, and others like him, unwillingness to adapt to a perceived threat that is the problem.

There's really no way to get around it. It does one thing and that's determine recent input. Is it foolproof against droppers, no but complete safety against them is not really desirable either. It's more of a concession against lazy cyno alts and lazy industrialists.

Tie a string to your toe and to your mouse - risk of losing toe
Automation - risk of bannation
Move mouse every x minutes or hours - risk of losing sleep / life
Park in likely location of targets - risk of being in wrong spot

It's all better than park cloakie with cyno n scram fitted and clear out entire system while not playing for days, weeks, months apart from logging in and cloaking every 24 hours.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#26 - 2015-11-08 08:17:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Infinity Ziona wrote:
... If your watch list shows a spike of cap pilots suddenly log on or logged on the droppers will just do something else ...

Mission accomplished. I also do not see how an alliance or combined coalition as active and big as the CFC should not be able to have this kind of 24/7 readiness. They value their social net and interaction and big community, this is exactly a situation where their boasting is put to the test. And judging by this thread, it's nothing but empty words.
Furthermore, you can minimize the effort and length of such fleets by coordinating your ratting/mining activities into time tables if your systems are being camped so that people rat and mine in certain systems only when a proper defense fleet can be active. Or if you really want to solo rat/mine, you just chose systems that appear to be rather unattractive (lower sec status, fewer belts, semi-active transit systems, far out systems, etc.) and most of the time you are left in peace or can even contribute to the intel by detecting people early who pass through to camp juicier systems further down.

Besides, tons of capitals are useless to counter regular hot droppers unless they bring lots of capitals as well.

But as said, it requires effort and people being in their space rather than missioning in High sec or gank ships in High sec. Roll But woe not, CCP has already hinted that the Observatory Arrays could potentially possess the feature of pin-pointing cloaked targets over time. This was even mentioned in the respective then-stickied thread, which makes this thread even more redundant.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2015-11-08 09:00:18 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Active is recent input, mouse click, chat, mail whatever. Time is irrelevant really but some games go 5 mins others a few hours.

Well, I could only think of about 15 ways to get around this, without actually being at my computer, while reading this thread. Give me a few minutes and I can come up with a couple dozen more.

AFK cloakers are not the problem, it's OP's, and others like him, unwillingness to adapt to a perceived threat that is the problem.

There's really no way to get around it. It does one thing and that's determine recent input. Is it foolproof against droppers, no but complete safety against them is not really desirable either. It's more of a concession against lazy cyno alts and lazy industrialists.

Tie a string to your toe and to your mouse - risk of losing toe
Automation - risk of bannation
Move mouse every x minutes or hours - risk of losing sleep / life
Park in likely location of targets - risk of being in wrong spot

It's all better than park cloakie with cyno n scram fitted and clear out entire system while not playing for days, weeks, months apart from logging in and cloaking every 24 hours.



Stay out of WH, you'll have an aneurysm. You don't have your little safety blanket of local there.
Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
#28 - 2015-11-08 09:11:26 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Zepheros Naeonis wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The fix is to do what most other games do, place the icon into dimmed after a certain period of inactivity. Why CCP refuses to make such a simple change is beyond curious.


Probably because there is no logical reason for adding it and it kills the immersion that a hostile environment should have. You're basically saying the ship or the system that mysteriously keeps track of players in a system should announce when a player is inactive. That would be a field day for gankers and people harrassing others. Not that local chat displaying users in system isn't immersion breaking as it is...

Logical reason is 1) 1 person cannot hold a system to ransom based on the potential to drop an overwhelming number of ships onto players. 2) the ability to filter out inactive players so one does not waste game time on hunting players who are not playing.

Both reasons are logical and would improve gameplay for those who are playing rather than those not playing. Emphasis should always be on players who are active obviously.


1. "ransom" is an excuse. You're simply incapable or unwilling to do something about it and just want a "problem" you face dealt with by drastically changing the way players take advantage of a certain style of gameplay.

2. Hardly a logical excuse when you're likely not even this type of player. Those that hunt can do so efficiently and generally MOVE ON to hunt rather than piddling around, PvEing, then getting dropped on and crying about it.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2015-11-08 12:33:13 UTC
Zepheros Naeonis wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Zepheros Naeonis wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The fix is to do what most other games do, place the icon into dimmed after a certain period of inactivity. Why CCP refuses to make such a simple change is beyond curious.


Probably because there is no logical reason for adding it and it kills the immersion that a hostile environment should have. You're basically saying the ship or the system that mysteriously keeps track of players in a system should announce when a player is inactive. That would be a field day for gankers and people harrassing others. Not that local chat displaying users in system isn't immersion breaking as it is...

Logical reason is 1) 1 person cannot hold a system to ransom based on the potential to drop an overwhelming number of ships onto players. 2) the ability to filter out inactive players so one does not waste game time on hunting players who are not playing.

Both reasons are logical and would improve gameplay for those who are playing rather than those not playing. Emphasis should always be on players who are active obviously.


1. "ransom" is an excuse. You're simply incapable or unwilling to do something about it and just want a "problem" you face dealt with by drastically changing the way players take advantage of a certain style of gameplay.

2. Hardly a logical excuse when you're likely not even this type of player. Those that hunt can do so efficiently and generally MOVE ON to hunt rather than piddling around, PvEing, then getting dropped on and crying about it.


No not an excuse at all. Players online need to take precedence over players offline. As a prolific cloakie player I stayed logged in 24/7 in alliance systems for weeks on end tying up their systems and preventing thousands of players from using those systems. I'd go active for 20 mins killing one then go AFK again. Since I have the actual experience of doing it I know how much effort it took, pretty much none to lock the system. I wrote a guide a year or so ago in which I detail how effective it is.

Prior to my null sec hunting I spent years in EvE deccing and hunting specific players in high sec. One of the most effective methods of ruining war decs is to get all players to stay logged in. That way it's virtually impossible to determine who just logged on, who is active and who is not. I've spent countless hours locating players in my address book, setting up an ambush only to find they're AFKd in station.

Both very frustrating results of the inability to determine an active player from on parked AFK.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2015-11-08 12:40:33 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
... If your watch list shows a spike of cap pilots suddenly log on or logged on the droppers will just do something else ...

Mission accomplished. I also do not see how an alliance or combined coalition as active and big as the CFC should not be able to have this kind of 24/7 readiness. They value their social net and interaction and big community, this is exactly a situation where their boasting is put to the test. And judging by this thread, it's nothing but empty words.
Furthermore, you can minimize the effort and length of such fleets by coordinating your ratting/mining activities into time tables if your systems are being camped so that people rat and mine in certain systems only when a proper defense fleet can be active. Or if you really want to solo rat/mine, you just chose systems that appear to be rather unattractive (lower sec status, fewer belts, semi-active transit systems, far out systems, etc.) and most of the time you are left in peace or can even contribute to the intel by detecting people early who pass through to camp juicier systems further down.

Besides, tons of capitals are useless to counter regular hot droppers unless they bring lots of capitals as well.

But as said, it requires effort and people being in their space rather than missioning in High sec or gank ships in High sec. Roll But woe not, CCP has already hinted that the Observatory Arrays could potentially possess the feature of pin-pointing cloaked targets over time. This was even mentioned in the respective then-stickied thread, which makes this thread even more redundant.

From an isk standpoint it'd be much more efficient to just take the hot drop than have a 24/7 counter dropping squad set up. What you would likely get is your entire counter drop baited into trying to save a ratter since your 24/7 gang would be scouted out by spies in no time at all and while they would know every detail of your force sitting at the Titan you'd know pretty much nothing about who random cyno alt from newbie corp is till they dropped you.

You're idea would be a pretty awesome whelp.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Bloody2k
SKULL AND B0NES
#31 - 2015-11-08 13:02:16 UTC
I think it would be enougth, that the screen freeze if the pilot stay afk while cloaked. And everybody have to see the "freeze" in local with an icon.
Whisperen
Resilience.
The Initiative.
#32 - 2015-11-08 16:01:30 UTC
We are not afk.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#33 - 2015-11-08 16:25:02 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
From an isk standpoint it'd be much more efficient to just take the hot drop than have a 24/7 counter dropping squad set up. What you would likely get is your entire counter drop baited into trying to save a ratter since your 24/7 gang would be scouted out by spies in no time at all and while they would know every detail of your force sitting at the Titan you'd know pretty much nothing about who random cyno alt from newbie corp is till they dropped you.

You're idea would be a pretty awesome whelp.

That ISK thinking is the wrong approach to the matter and the reason why people will aways whine like this CFC person instead of doing something about the campers. If your most important concern is ISK, not even set up Observatory Arrays will change that fact a lot as people would probably need to operate the arrays and can't rat. The point is, however, not to have awesome ISK efficiency in terms of "How much you could make in the same time", it is about having content available in your home area, minimizing the need to fly dozens of jumps into other areas, as well as to keep your space cleaner.

A whelp isn't too bad. After all, we always want to see destruction. Next time prepare better by using only part of your fleet on the titan as decoy, check killboards more efficiently or use titans or soon-to-be-introduced player constructed gates from different systems to get on the targets.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
ISD Buldath
#34 - 2015-11-09 01:10:11 UTC
Quote:
17. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked.

As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread.


There already exists A sticky thread regarding AFK Cloaking. Take a look there, post your thoughts. Locked.

~ISD Buldath

Instructor King of the Forums! Knight of the General Discussion

Support, Training and Resources Division

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to EVE-Mails regarding forum moderation.
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