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Just to Mention EvE, CCP and the CSM

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La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-11-07 07:42:51 UTC  |  Edited by: La Rynx
From time to time i read comments, saysing that the CSM is worthless and without influence. CSM can't change anything and similiar.

This might look like that BUT

CSM sign a "silence treaty":
Meaning any future change the bring into the game are to kept silence about.
The Things the players get, are the minutes the can read. 
But not about the final decissions that where taken with those guys.


OK, they are just consultants, CCP does not need to follow what CSM says, but they still listen.

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
Ultim8Evil
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#2 - 2015-11-07 07:46:12 UTC
RIP English

Follow me on Twitter for literally no good reason @TheUltim8Evil
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-11-07 07:55:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sibyyl
Like any other aspect of EVE, CSM involves metagaming. By its very nature metagaming can sometimes accidentally (or deliberately) violate the invisible rules CCP has for their game and the players.


If you can't stand the fact that EVE players will metagame to their own or their Corp or Alliance's benefit, I suggest you stop playing EVE.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Cecil Montague
PCG Enterprises
#4 - 2015-11-07 08:44:44 UTC
I see the CSM's primary role as making sure CCP doesn't do anything really stupid. As such we never really see the influence as the bad ideas never make it off the drawing board.

It's like Infrastructure. If absolutely nothing interesting happens it means they're doing their job. Smile

"There is no such thing as an effective segment of Totality" - Bruce Lee: The only man with a Chuck Norris killmail.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#5 - 2015-11-07 10:46:58 UTC
CSM gives CCP a mechanism for testing ideas against the player base without actually involving the entire player base. This is a good thing. Most of these "trial balloons" will never make it into the game and it makes no sense to send player emotions and the market on a roller coaster ride until they have been developed into concepts that are being seriously considered for further development.
Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#6 - 2015-11-07 10:55:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Otso Bakarti
The CSM is a corporate device intended to give the appearance of customer input into design. This is only possible if the entire CSM represents the entire playerbase...or reasonably close. CSM members, but for a certain one (possibly two) have stated they are there for their own organization's interests and if you don't like it, run yourself.

The tale of the tape is what sort of changes are forthcoming. What is the nature, and general thrust of the development process? Vets have for years been begging, "Fix things we already have before you go into lengthy, new elaborations." This has been the majority view for years. This has not happened. Read all the CSM minutes you want. It's never there - as an example.

Rational customers prefer an actual say in what's going on if "customers" are getting a say; not just some customers. Sure, CSM is in there doing something. The Fizzle SoV® genius is in there doing something. And, of course the "Looky At Us We're Doin' Sumpthin' NEW!" team is in there stroking away. However, the issue is WHAT they are doing, not THAT they are.

As long as we have this CSM, or whatever you want to call it, the powers that be can claim they're getting customer input to guide their steps, even though it isn't the majority of the playerbase - it's just some customers. If you want to endorse this process, it's a free internet. Knock yourself out. There are those of us who see things differently -
to be diplomatic about it.

There just isn't anything that can be said!
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#7 - 2015-11-07 11:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Otso Bakarti wrote:
The CSM is a corporate device intended to give the appearance of customer input into design. This is only possible if the entire CSM represents the entire playerbase...or reasonably close. CSM members, but for a certain one (possibly two) have stated they are there for their own organization's interests and if you don't like it, run yourself.

The tale of the tape is what sort of changes are forthcoming. What is the nature, and general thrust of the development process? Vets have for years been begging, "Fix things we already have before you go into lengthy, new elaborations." This has been the majority view for years. This has not happened. Read all the CSM minutes you want. It's never there - as an example.

Rational customers prefer an actual say in what's going on if "customers" are getting a say; not just some customers. Sure, CSM is in there doing something. The Fizzle SoV® genius is in there doing something. And, of course the "Looky At Us We're Doin' Sumpthin' NEW!" team is in there stroking away. However, the issue is WHAT they are doing, not THAT they are.

As long as we have this CSM, or whatever you want to call it, the powers that be can claim they're getting customer input to guide their steps, even though it isn't the majority of the playerbase - it's just some customers. If you want to endorse this process, it's a free internet. Knock yourself out. There are those of us who see things differently -
to be diplomatic about it.
You're right the CSM doesn't represent the majority of players, they do however represent those that could be bothered to vote; which was approx 11-12% of subbed accounts for CSM X IIRC.

Better that we get some representation, albeit possibly biased, than we get none at all

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Jenshae Chiroptera
#8 - 2015-11-07 12:09:20 UTC
A lot of CSM members tend to complain that they could enact greater changes from outside the CSM. They have more free reign to reach out and convince more players who then carry their cause forward.

Team Five 0 have consistently ignored advice from CSM about changes relating to Capitals, Fozzie SOV and Tech 3 destroyers just to name this year's main alterations.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#9 - 2015-11-07 12:12:06 UTC
Cecil Montague wrote:
I see the CSM's primary role as making sure CCP doesn't do anything really stupid. As such we never really see the influence as the bad ideas never make it off the drawing board.

It's like Infrastructure. If absolutely nothing interesting happens it means they're doing their job. Smile


This is absolutely the case. In 3 years, 5 months, I'll be able to mention a few concrete examples.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#10 - 2015-11-07 12:16:06 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
A lot of CSM members tend to complain that they could enact greater changes from outside the CSM. They have more free reign to reach out and convince more players who then carry their cause forward.


This is also absolutely the case. If you want to drive a specific solution or change, then the CSM is not a great platform to do it from. The devs tend to react pretty strongly against CSM "pet ideas".

What it is pretty good for is to get a specific issue some attention. That's great, as long as you accept that your influence on the way that the issue with dealt with is pretty much going to be "Get some input on how it's communicated, maybe help fine tune details or the specific order that phased changes are released in" at best - most likely that issue will be addressed the next CSM's term.


"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#11 - 2015-11-07 17:17:11 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Otso Bakarti wrote:
The CSM is a corporate device intended to give the appearance of customer input into design. This is only possible if the entire CSM represents the entire playerbase...or reasonably close. CSM members, but for a certain one (possibly two) have stated they are there for their own organization's interests and if you don't like it, run yourself.

The tale of the tape is what sort of changes are forthcoming. What is the nature, and general thrust of the development process? Vets have for years been begging, "Fix things we already have before you go into lengthy, new elaborations." This has been the majority view for years. This has not happened. Read all the CSM minutes you want. It's never there - as an example.

Rational customers prefer an actual say in what's going on if "customers" are getting a say; not just some customers. Sure, CSM is in there doing something. The Fizzle SoV® genius is in there doing something. And, of course the "Looky At Us We're Doin' Sumpthin' NEW!" team is in there stroking away. However, the issue is WHAT they are doing, not THAT they are.

As long as we have this CSM, or whatever you want to call it, the powers that be can claim they're getting customer input to guide their steps, even though it isn't the majority of the playerbase - it's just some customers. If you want to endorse this process, it's a free internet. Knock yourself out. There are those of us who see things differently -
to be diplomatic about it.
You're right the CSM doesn't represent the majority of players, they do however represent those that could be bothered to vote; which was approx 11-12% of subbed accounts for CSM X IIRC.

Better that we get some representation, albeit possibly biased, than we get none at all
I thought I said we get no representation at all in all that text. Allow me to rephrase. We get no representation at all. It's just like with PLEX prices. Don't boycott the sellers, the prices just go up. Keep saying CSM is better than nothing, then we get the nothing that's the CSM. In all seriousness, CSM is all "we're" going to get anyway. So, just don't get the wrong idea about it like....
...it has something to do with the EVE playerbase....other than sleight of hand.

There just isn't anything that can be said!
Vollhov
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2015-11-07 17:22:32 UTC
Question.
What for in general need this CSM Question
What made the CSM for the game Question

End of Time. I'm not fanatic, I'm just a servant by Her Majesty the Empress Jamyl Sarum I. It's time to leave this world to me. YC111 to YC117.12.10 20:00
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#13 - 2015-11-07 18:07:18 UTC
Otso Bakarti wrote:
I thought I said we get no representation at all in all that text. Allow me to rephrase. We get no representation at all.
You did, and I disagreed with you; I still disagree with you.

Quote:
It's just like with PLEX prices. Don't boycott the sellers, the prices just go up.
Pray tell how the price of PLEX is relevant to your little diatribe.

Quote:
Keep saying CSM is better than nothing, then we get the nothing that's the CSM. In all seriousness, CSM is all "we're" going to get anyway. So, just don't get the wrong idea about it like.
Some of us are well aware of the limitations of the CSMs influence, and that slight influence is better than none at all.

Quote:
...it has something to do with the EVE playerbase....other than sleight of hand.
What are you trying to say?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
ISD Buldath
#14 - 2015-11-07 19:34:33 UTC
Quote:
3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.


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