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NERF The Watchlist.......

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Avvy
Doomheim
#101 - 2015-11-03 16:49:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Masao Kurata wrote:
[quote=Avvy]
Actually it's funny that you say get rid of locators and watch lists but keep local, the former two almost exclusively are content drivers while the latter reduces content by promoting risk averse gameplay.




Not funny at all, without locator agents and being able to use the watch lists, you would never find anyone if local was also changed.

You are right about some don't log on for long and so time is a factor.

However, it doesn't change the fact that locator agents and watch-lists can be used as griefing tools. The problem with a game like this one is it can be very difficult to know when it's actual griefing as the lines become blurred in a game with not many boundaries.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#102 - 2015-11-03 18:07:53 UTC
Avvy wrote:
However, it doesn't change the fact that locator agents and watch-lists can be used as griefing tools. The problem with a game like this one is it can be very difficult to know when it's actual griefing as the lines become blurred in a game with not many boundaries.


Like I said, actual grief play is an issue for the GMs. What the mechanics allow is player interaction, which is fundamentally a good thing. Only very few player interactions are actually undesirable.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#103 - 2015-11-03 19:27:10 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Madd Adda wrote:
And instant online/offline grants you more intel, how? Without other sources, online/offline status is largely meaningless (even to me). Even with gankers added, they can enter my system at anytime. The watchlist merely makes me paranoid enough not to leave my computer without docking. You cannot tell where the target are and what they are doing/flying, you need to run a locator for that. Even then, they could be in transit to somewhere else. I don't see your logic when you're using a third party site to gain intel, as opposed to merely knowing if someone is online.


Clearly, you've never been involved with large scale, multiple fleet, capital and supercapital brawls.

Simply knowing that your opponent is logging in supercaps is a HUGE piece of intel for a bloc level FC. I really can't stress enough just how powerful that piece of intel is.

I was involved in a carrier/dread operation in Lowsec a while back. We successfully baited our opposition into dropping some expensive stuff on us, which we then countered with our own (well, not MY own, I can't fly anything much bigger than a frigate)

After a solid 10'ish minutes of gud'fighting when we started to hold the upper hand, our FC starts yelling at us all to RUN and GTFO. His watchlist had just gone beserk with our enemies supercaps logging on.

Sure enough, less than a minute later, we had three Nyxs, three Aeons and two Erebus drop onfield (and my watchlist grew by eight).

Now, we had no spai in that alliance, yet we knew INSTANTLY when their biggest, most expensive and shiny toys came out to play.

That's Over-Powered.

Let me see if I got this right. WL warned you when you were about to get your ass stomped, and this is a bad thing?

You seriously want people to be able to log their super fleets on and drop them on you with no warning what-so-ever?

Really?


Being able to drop 100 supers on a bunch of entitled pro-frigate spacepoor hobos with no warning what so ever.... is what made Eve great.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#104 - 2015-11-04 06:22:13 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:

Being able to drop 100 supers on a bunch of entitled pro-frigate spacepoor hobos with no warning what so ever.... is what made Eve great.


well, yes. except for the simple fact that we DO get a warning that supers are on the way.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#105 - 2015-11-04 09:34:53 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Tell you what, if I remember, when I get online tonight I'll post here that I'm online.

I'm going to predict that nothing untoward happens as a result, any and all comers are welcome.

Or watch list me, go on! Enjoy yourselves.



I was busy last night.

I'm online. I await the impending apocalypse.....Roll
Manes Avatarr
Superfast
#106 - 2015-11-04 10:23:03 UTC
Oh man, 1000x yes.
CCP.. please remove watchlist (contact watchlist, not that one in fleet UI) as a whole. Its surreal and thing completely out of realism. We cant know if someone goes online or offline, it destroys immersion and its no fun at all.

FRONTIER ADVENTURERS Corp. | To explore, build & fight! | recruitment topic
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#107 - 2015-11-04 10:31:01 UTC
Manes Avatarr wrote:
Oh man, 1000x yes.
CCP.. please remove watchlist (contact watchlist, not that one in fleet UI) as a whole. Its surreal and thing completely out of realism. We cant know if someone goes online or offline, it destroys immersion and its no fun at all.



But apparently your "immersion" isn't hurt by someone disappearing form existence completely? Right in front of you?

Pull the other one son, it's got bells on.
Manes Avatarr
Superfast
#108 - 2015-11-04 10:47:22 UTC
afkalt wrote:
[
But apparently your "immersion" isn't hurt by someone disappearing form existence completely? Right in front of you?

Pull the other one son, it's got bells on.



Like cloaking your ship? Nope. Its tech.

FRONTIER ADVENTURERS Corp. | To explore, build & fight! | recruitment topic
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#109 - 2015-11-04 10:49:22 UTC
Manes Avatarr wrote:
afkalt wrote:
[
But apparently your "immersion" isn't hurt by someone disappearing form existence completely? Right in front of you?

Pull the other one son, it's got bells on.



Like cloaking your ship? Nope. Its tech.



And the watch list is spies on the ship. HTH.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#110 - 2015-11-04 11:57:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
Masao Kurata wrote:
Avvy wrote:
However, it doesn't change the fact that locator agents and watch-lists can be used as griefing tools. The problem with a game like this one is it can be very difficult to know when it's actual griefing as the lines become blurred in a game with not many boundaries.


Like I said, actual grief play is an issue for the GMs. What the mechanics allow is player interaction, which is fundamentally a good thing. Only very few player interactions are actually undesirable.



You're being griefed if you have to lock your door because they are coming up your front steps IRL. Excessive griefing is when you have to reload. The in game stuff is just pixels. There are a lot of other games out there that draw the line in a different location. Feel free to choose to play where you are comfortable. It's your money PICK a game that makes you happy, don't try to change a perfectly good game that you are not comfortable with.

Sometimes I think folks forget that eve is a space fantasy alternate (non) reality. It's rules and terms of engagement have zero to do with the real life morals and scruples. You're logging into a fantasy, not a model/replica of real life.


EDIT: On topic - get rid of local and the watch list will be fine. You're ignoring the problem and attacking the solution here.

EDIT 2: For super pilots - with the incoming changes the watch list is the least of your worries. Sheet is goning to explode, BIG sheet and lots of it. The reign of the apex fleet is coming to an end. Embrace it, live it, be epic!
Shai'd Hulud
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2015-11-04 13:49:43 UTC
-1 for OP

I like the watchlist it's a good tool. Don't touch this. It's the same rules for all. I see you, you see me!

You talk about killboard too. Don't remove fit on it. It's a good source of useful information for ship fit.. When I purchase a new ship I often check the killboard in order to inspire me and make my own fit.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#112 - 2015-11-04 14:46:38 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Manes Avatarr wrote:
afkalt wrote:
[
But apparently your "immersion" isn't hurt by someone disappearing form existence completely? Right in front of you?

Pull the other one son, it's got bells on.



Like cloaking your ship? Nope. Its tech.



And the watch list is spies on the ship. HTH.


Spy in your pod?

Oh wait you mean spy device pre installed right?

Who install them?

Why don't you get the wrong info if I gave my ship to someone else?
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#113 - 2015-11-04 14:54:30 UTC
To the Op, Chance Ravinne brought up this very same issue maybe... 5 months back on the wormhole forums. People freaked out at the prospect, but recognize what its used for. They didn't know whether they could handle the change. He was summarily yelled at (after trolling a bit himself).

People do not want to give this up. This system is CREEPY. Its free stalker intelligence for the entire eve community. The watchlist is almost akin to local. People's basic answer is....

"How will I know when they are here?".

People are addicted to local because it is free intel of who is in system and also free intel when there is a fleet and potential fight.

People are addicted to the watchlist because it is free intel of who is logged on and also free intel when they are bringing their buddies on to smash you.

... is pretty much the same sh-t. Very few will actively say "get rid of it", when they really should iterate on it.

Yaay!!!!
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#114 - 2015-11-04 15:25:10 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Manes Avatarr wrote:
afkalt wrote:
[
But apparently your "immersion" isn't hurt by someone disappearing form existence completely? Right in front of you?

Pull the other one son, it's got bells on.



Like cloaking your ship? Nope. Its tech.



And the watch list is spies on the ship. HTH.


Spy in your pod?

Oh wait you mean spy device pre installed right?

Who install them?

Why don't you get the wrong info if I gave my ship to someone else?



I don't make the rules, ask an immersion freak for that. Replace ship with planet/POS/station/same magic that lets someone find you precisely for a fee in 10 minutes flat with hundreds of light years to comb to do it.

Or how they can explain a 18km long, couple of trillion ton hull just disappearing into the ether, untouchable by anything. "Cloaking" or "tech" doesn't quite cover it, otherwise it would be employed defensively.

Immersion breaking indeed. Weapons grade bullshit, more like.

Or all the things that stop eve being "immersive", this is probably at the very bottom of a list so long I can't even see the bottom of it.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#115 - 2015-11-04 16:13:30 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Manes Avatarr wrote:
afkalt wrote:
[
But apparently your "immersion" isn't hurt by someone disappearing form existence completely? Right in front of you?

Pull the other one son, it's got bells on.



Like cloaking your ship? Nope. Its tech.



And the watch list is spies on the ship. HTH.


Spy in your pod?

Oh wait you mean spy device pre installed right?

Who install them?

Why don't you get the wrong info if I gave my ship to someone else?



I don't make the rules, ask an immersion freak for that. Replace ship with planet/POS/station/same magic that lets someone find you precisely for a fee in 10 minutes flat with hundreds of light years to comb to do it.

Or how they can explain a 18km long, couple of trillion ton hull just disappearing into the ether, untouchable by anything. "Cloaking" or "tech" doesn't quite cover it, otherwise it would be employed defensively.

Immersion breaking indeed. Weapons grade bullshit, more like.

Or all the things that stop eve being "immersive", this is probably at the very bottom of a list so long I can't even see the bottom of it.



the fact that gate guns forget what you did if you warp off and back again is more immersion breaking.
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#116 - 2015-11-04 16:32:46 UTC
Shai'd Hulud wrote:
-1 for OP

I like the watchlist it's a good tool. Don't touch this. It's the same rules for all. I see you, you see me!

You talk about killboard too. Don't remove fit on it. It's a good source of useful information for ship fit.. When I purchase a new ship I often check the killboard in order to inspire me and make my own fit.



You know who you are watching - They do not know that you are watching them.

That is not the same rules for all, It's completely one sided - I see you, you don't see me because you don't even know to look for me.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#117 - 2015-11-04 17:18:22 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Shai'd Hulud wrote:
-1 for OP

I like the watchlist it's a good tool. Don't touch this. It's the same rules for all. I see you, you see me!

You talk about killboard too. Don't remove fit on it. It's a good source of useful information for ship fit.. When I purchase a new ship I often check the killboard in order to inspire me and make my own fit.



You know who you are watching - They do not know that you are watching them.

That is not the same rules for all, It's completely one sided - I see you, you don't see me because you don't even know to look for me.



they can just add you to watch list also. It not like its some obscure hidden thing in the client. People don't hush up and stop talking when you start asking about the watch list.


If you don't know who to watch list thats your problem and nothing else.
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#118 - 2015-11-04 17:48:33 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Shai'd Hulud wrote:
-1 for OP

I like the watchlist it's a good tool. Don't touch this. It's the same rules for all. I see you, you see me!

You talk about killboard too. Don't remove fit on it. It's a good source of useful information for ship fit.. When I purchase a new ship I often check the killboard in order to inspire me and make my own fit.



You know who you are watching - They do not know that you are watching them.

That is not the same rules for all, It's completely one sided - I see you, you don't see me because you don't even know to look for me.



they can just add you to watch list also. It not like its some obscure hidden thing in the client. People don't hush up and stop talking when you start asking about the watch list.


If you don't know who to watch list thats your problem and nothing else.



You cannot counter what you do not know
- And -
If you believe otherwise..... I used the easy to find watch-list button to watch list you with an alt account please feel free to post their name here




Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#119 - 2015-11-04 17:55:49 UTC
Totally misread the post P
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#120 - 2015-11-04 17:57:21 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Shai'd Hulud wrote:
-1 for OP

I like the watchlist it's a good tool. Don't touch this. It's the same rules for all. I see you, you see me!

You talk about killboard too. Don't remove fit on it. It's a good source of useful information for ship fit.. When I purchase a new ship I often check the killboard in order to inspire me and make my own fit.



You know who you are watching - They do not know that you are watching them.

That is not the same rules for all, It's completely one sided - I see you, you don't see me because you don't even know to look for me.



they can just add you to watch list also. It not like its some obscure hidden thing in the client. People don't hush up and stop talking when you start asking about the watch list.


If you don't know who to watch list thats your problem and nothing else.



You cannot counter what you do not know
- And -
If you believe otherwise..... I used the easy to find watch-list button to watch list you with an alt account please feel free to post their name here







Perhaps you can list the counters to locators, local or to killboard trawling?


Because, lets face it, without those.....this is worthless.