These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

To Tuulinen-"haan" regarding his lies about Tibus Heth
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#121 - 2015-11-02 20:24:05 UTC
Arrendis wrote:

*yawn* Even by your standards, that one was weak, Kimmy.

Have to admit, though, I'm surprised you'd leap to the defense of someone extolling the amazing superiority of the Gallente Culture. Guess those theories about you being a Fed mole aren't so wrong, huh?

Thank you for displaying goon level of stupidity... once again.
Now please vacate the thread and go back to your null sec playing toy soldiers.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#122 - 2015-11-02 20:25:16 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

One of the most traditional Caldari that I know is actually a Brutor by genetics. Korsavius. It's a shame he's a Liberal, but he really is an alright sort for all of that.

I knew that creature. Calling him "traditional Caldari" is insult to all Caldari.
Even to those, who became gurista.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#123 - 2015-11-02 20:35:56 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Arrendis wrote:

*yawn* Even by your standards, that one was weak, Kimmy.

Have to admit, though, I'm surprised you'd leap to the defense of someone extolling the amazing superiority of the Gallente Culture. Guess those theories about you being a Fed mole aren't so wrong, huh?

Thank you for displaying goon level of stupidity... once again.
Now please vacate the thread and go back to your null sec playing toy soldiers.


See? You're doing it again. Someone disagrees with the Gallente-worship, and you want them out of the thread. You really are an amazing little Federation propaganda machine.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#124 - 2015-11-02 20:44:49 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Arrendis wrote:

*yawn* Even by your standards, that one was weak, Kimmy.

Have to admit, though, I'm surprised you'd leap to the defense of someone extolling the amazing superiority of the Gallente Culture. Guess those theories about you being a Fed mole aren't so wrong, huh?

Thank you for displaying goon level of stupidity... once again.
Now please vacate the thread and go back to your null sec playing toy soldiers.


See? You're doing it again. Someone disagrees with the Gallente-worship, and you want them out of the thread. You really are an amazing little Federation propaganda machine.

And this is, ladies and gentlemen, a typical example of an education level among goon grunts, who fail to distinguish even between four major Empires...
Rather sad sight.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#125 - 2015-11-02 21:05:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
Diana Kim wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

One of the most traditional Caldari that I know is actually a Brutor by genetics. Korsavius. It's a shame he's a Liberal, but he really is an alright sort for all of that.

I knew that creature. Calling him "traditional Caldari" is insult to all Caldari.
Even to those, who became gurista.


Tell me, Kim. Who among the Caldari capsuleers do you respect? Oniseki-Charantes-haani? Tuulinen-haan? Lavius-haan? Silver Night? Ruil-haani? Desiderya Tuulinen-haani? Revenent-haan? Samenel-haan? Haritimado-haani?

I could list more, but I suspect those will be the ones you'd most easily carry an opinion on.

And please, do tell us who in the capsuleer community is a paragon of Caldari virtue.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#126 - 2015-11-02 21:10:58 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
And please, do tell us who is a paragon of Caldari virtue.

Why, Tibus Heth, of course.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#127 - 2015-11-02 21:23:24 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Makoto Priano wrote:
And please, do tell us who is a paragon of Caldari virtue.

Why, Tibus Heth, of course.


Hm; point. I only said 'Caldari capsuleers' once. I'll make sure to repeat it a time or three.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#128 - 2015-11-02 21:24:45 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

One of the most traditional Caldari that I know is actually a Brutor by genetics. Korsavius. It's a shame he's a Liberal, but he really is an alright sort for all of that.

I knew that creature. Calling him "traditional Caldari" is insult to all Caldari.
Even to those, who became gurista.


He's got this amazing stretch of land on an island, with a wonderful shrine. He held a festival there and everything was so perfect that it quite took my breath away. He was an excellent host and observed all of the old traditions.

You should look a little deeper than his skin and his corporate affilliation, Commander.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#129 - 2015-11-02 21:37:12 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

One of the most traditional Caldari that I know is actually a Brutor by genetics. Korsavius. It's a shame he's a Liberal, but he really is an alright sort for all of that.

I knew that creature. Calling him "traditional Caldari" is insult to all Caldari.
Even to those, who became gurista.


He's got this amazing stretch of land on an island, with a wonderful shrine. He held a festival there and everything was so perfect that it quite took my breath away. He was an excellent host and observed all of the old traditions.

You should look a little deeper than his skin and his corporate affilliation, Commander.


Ah! The Twin Flames! That was a phenomenal event. Didn't Scherezad-haani give a recitation of Napanii poetry at the event?

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#130 - 2015-11-02 22:28:02 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

One of the most traditional Caldari that I know is actually a Brutor by genetics. Korsavius. It's a shame he's a Liberal, but he really is an alright sort for all of that.

I knew that creature. Calling him "traditional Caldari" is insult to all Caldari.
Even to those, who became gurista.


He's got this amazing stretch of land on an island, with a wonderful shrine. He held a festival there and everything was so perfect that it quite took my breath away. He was an excellent host and observed all of the old traditions.

You should look a little deeper than his skin and his corporate affilliation, Commander.

I didn't look neither at his skin, nor at his affiliation.
I was looking at his words, and they were words not of Caldari, but of a rabid tribal.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Vikarion
Doomheim
#131 - 2015-11-03 00:22:56 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You should look a little deeper than his skin and his corporate affilliation, Commander.


Kim cannot look beyond his skin precisely because she cannot look beyond her own.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#132 - 2015-11-03 00:36:46 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You should look a little deeper than his skin and his corporate affilliation, Commander.


Kim cannot look beyond his skin precisely because she cannot look beyond her own.

I wonder when idiots will stop lying about me like that?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Calliste Dauvienne
Doomheim
#133 - 2015-11-03 00:38:26 UTC
Arrendis wrote:

I mean, sure, he definitely was saying things that weren't praising the amazing awesomeness of the Gallente Culture, but you're the one who read the word 'oppression' into it. I mean, maybe I'm blind, but I've run his post through at least 3 different computers, and none of us find 'oppress' anywhere in it.

So, you know, maybe you wanna back off the idea that anyone who says 'people talking about their politics and trying to get me to take sides in their internal spat make me uncomfortable' is claiming to be oppressed? Maybe? Just a little?

Or, you know, I've got a long-running argument with my cousin Cailyn about which brand of chocolate drink tastes better. I prefer Choco-Q from Quafe, and she prefers the clearly inferior DarkMoo from a little micro-bottler on Perimeter II. If I attempt to sell you on the virtues of Choco-Q, am I oppressing you? Or just being an annoying pain in the butt?

And wow, way to confirm all of his claims of being treated as 'the Other'. Since your amazing Federal Education System didn't seem to see fit to cover basic sociology, 'the Other' is a term indicating that the individual or group in question is segregated or presented as outside of 'normal' society in a specific attempt to demonize them and incite popular opinion against them. So, yeah, good job on demonstrating how accurate that claim was. I mean, really, that whole 'if you don't want to be a unique and opinionated indivdiual just like everyone else, there's the border, get the frik out'? Just classic.

So, sure, you're willing to sit down and chat with someone who's already an 'Other' for you, someone whose rejection of your cultural norms actually fits the predefined role you have for her in your head. In fact, you're not only 'willing' to do it, you're really happy to trumpet your own open-mindedness about it! You're willing to talk to Diana Kim! You're a gorram hero! A champion of freedom and individuality! A veritable crusader for people to express opinions you can argue with!

But when someone says 'it's great that you have opinions, but I don't need to hear them', well, that's just an offense against freedom itself! Heavens forfend someone might want the freedom to not argue, and not be argued at. Seriously, someone who works within and for the Federation dares to say 'hey, guys, no offense, but stop trying to force me to be like you in the name of freedom', and wow do the claws come out. And you call him a free-loader! That's hilarious! He gets paid if he does stuff! That's pretty much the definitive opposite of a free-loader.

And people wonder why so many of us are happier in null...


While the word oppress was not used I would say you yourself acknowledge that it was implied:

Arrendis wrote:
'the Other' is a term indicating that the individual or group in question is segregated or presented as outside of 'normal' society in a specific attempt to demonize them and incite popular opinion against them


Sociologically, I would call that social conformity pressure and a method of oppression by ostracizing or segregating those who do not prescribe to a popular opinion of the majority.

However, with Mr. Egivand's statements it does appear to imply that he feels oppressed not by a single opinion or popular consensus but by the fact that there are opinions, that he is asked about his own, and that discussion takes place.

As such, if one feels oppressed not by the social conformity pressure of a single opinion but by opinions and discussion themselves then the Federation cannot change itself to accomodate because yes, it is built on a diversity of opinion and discussion.

Such a stance would mean that any time there exists discussion or expression of opinions it is to be considered oppression in and of itself. That a platform such as the IGS for example is then a venue of the tyranny of opinion and discussion in which Mr. Egivand himself is also a tyrant for expressing his own. In fact any human society in which discussion or opinions exists would thus be oppressive.

Therein lies my curiousity in the apparent contradiction contained in Mr. Egivand's personal anecdote, and if there might be anything more substantive to it or if it is just one man's personal experiences and opinions.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#134 - 2015-11-03 01:46:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Calliste Dauvienne wrote:


So you are a Minmatar who works for the FDU purely out of economic self-interest and financial remuneration which has parallels in the billions of Republic economic migrants to the Federation. And the only "burden" of the associated financial gains involved in working in, and for the Federation, is confronting a diversity of opinions and political views?

That's your ordeal in life in the Federation? The persecution of people having their own thoughts and opinions and asking about your own? You say you don't want to participate in discussions with people in the Federation, and then say they're the ones ostracizing you as, "Other"?

Is the Federation oppressing Minmatar by providing them access to economic opportunity and the ability to provide remittances back to the Republic?

Is the Federation oppressing the Minmatar by granting the Republic Trade Agreements beneficial to their local economy?

Is the Federation oppressing the Minmatar by offering financial stimulus and humanitarian aid for refugees and recently freed slaves?

No, it seems the oppression of the Federation comes from having to face the opinions of others. I never realized the rest of humanity does not experience personal disagreement, contrary opinions, differing politics or ideology, and the partisanship related to contributing factors of self-identity and loyalty -- ethnic, tribal, national, cultural, corporate, familial, religious, political, or feudal, to name a few.

For a Federation with trillions of citizens and complex dynamics of individual and collective identities then discussion and expression of opinions is an unavoidable fact of life to ensure measures of compromise given the sheer proclivities of views and interests within the Federal mileu. This cannot be changed so long as the Federation remains a heterogeneous society.

Fortunately, for the Minmatar who do not desire to be part of such a diverse and cosmopolitan mileu with a wide range of contrary thought and opinion there does exist an open border policy between Federation and Republic.

Ironically, for a man so willing to decry Gallentean persecution and vilification by having to experience the scrutiny of contrary opinion, you seem very much Gallentean yourself in your adherence to traditional libertarian-individualist ideology -- to free-load and benefit from society for your own individual self-interest while shouting oppression at the first instance if that same society or other individuals counter personal worldview.

And yet for all that, here I am, a Federal citizen, a Jin-Mei, who has offered to sit down and discuss openly in a tet-a-tet with a Caldari Officer such as Ms. Kim, who as far as I can see rejects Gallentean and Federal values but who I am willing to talk with in the pursuit of understanding and respect, even if we may initially disagree.


I thank Arrendis for her defense of my opinions, but I am going to speak for myself on this regard.

First, the problem I am alluding to has nothing to do with what the Gallente is doing for the Republic. It’s about the regular citizen trying to basically indoctrinate an outsider into their political beliefs and being a veritable pain in the arse about it.

So take your Corovid-crap that is your ‘Look at how much we helped you’ rhetoric and shove it into the depths of your cargo hold. Helping is one thing; disrespecting one’s refusal to make a comment about a matter, especially matters close to your heart is another. Yes, you have your opinions. Fine. I’m not interested! I have no comments! I am not taking a side! This is a fence and I’m sitting on it! You guys can argue about whatever policies or political ideal you guys hold strongly but I’m not contributing an opinion about it! I’m just going to sit here and listen and not say a thing! In fact, I’m not even a citizen and I’m not voting in the next election! Sounds fair?

Of course not! Let’s drag the outsider who is just sitting here trying to eat his dinner into the discussion anyway! If he isn’t going to state an opinion we are going to either stay away from him or force our opinions into him in the most annoying parrot-like way possible! Well, bugger off! I am exercising my right to remain silent!

And freeloading? You do realise that a privateer is only paid for *work* done, right? We don’t get monthly wages.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#135 - 2015-11-03 04:50:35 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Vikarion wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You should look a little deeper than his skin and his corporate affilliation, Commander.


Kim cannot look beyond his skin precisely because she cannot look beyond her own.

I wonder when idiots will stop lying about me like that?

Not lies. Biased observations. If you were to, maybe, slightly alter the way you interact with people, you might notice a drastic change in the way people regard you.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#136 - 2015-11-03 07:23:15 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Vikarion wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You should look a little deeper than his skin and his corporate affilliation, Commander.


Kim cannot look beyond his skin precisely because she cannot look beyond her own.

I wonder when idiots will stop lying about me like that?


When you don't give them a reason to. Meaning when you stop acting like a deranged genocidal nationalist on public avenues - which is probably never - they will stop "lying" about you.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#137 - 2015-11-03 08:44:39 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Vikarion wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You should look a little deeper than his skin and his corporate affilliation, Commander.


Kim cannot look beyond his skin precisely because she cannot look beyond her own.

I wonder when idiots will stop lying about me like that?


When you don't give them a reason to. Meaning when you stop acting like a deranged genocidal nationalist on public avenues - which is probably never - they will stop "lying" about you.

Biased observations.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#138 - 2015-11-03 14:14:44 UTC
Calliste Dauvienne wrote:

While the word oppress was not used I would say you yourself acknowledge that it was implied:

Arrendis wrote:
'the Other' is a term indicating that the individual or group in question is segregated or presented as outside of 'normal' society in a specific attempt to demonize them and incite popular opinion against them


Sociologically, I would call that social conformity pressure and a method of oppression by ostracizing or segregating those who do not prescribe to a popular opinion of the majority.


You would say it was implied. I would say it was inferred. The difference? One is the act of the speaker/writer, the other the act of the listener/reader. To be blunt, oppression is systemic and it is institutionalized. Being jerks isn't oppression.

I'm certainly not saying you're being oppressive.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#139 - 2015-11-03 14:31:09 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:

Tell me, Kim. Who among the Caldari capsuleers do you respect? Oniseki-Charantes-haani? Tuulinen-haan? Lavius-haan? Silver Night? Ruil-haani? Desiderya Tuulinen-haani? Revenent-haan? Samenel-haan? Haritimado-haani?

I could list more, but I suspect those will be the ones you'd most easily carry an opinion on.

And please, do tell us who in the capsuleer community is a paragon of Caldari virtue.

Somehow you have included peoples rather... not fitting Caldari description at all. For example, Oniseki-"Charantes"-haani. As far as I remember this creature is... a girl, who is married on a girl. Such marriage is not tolerated neither in the State nor in general Caldari population. And listing her as Cadlari capsuleers or even asking me about respect to this person is insulting.

Somehow you haven't listed those Caldari capsuleers who did for the State more than others. How about Gen. Damar Rocarion? Subsparx? Scylus Black?.. From those who appear on IGS you didn't mention Lt. Col. Nieli and 1st Lt. Maxwell. There are a lot of names I could list further, but as you have insulted Caldari name by referencing Oniseki there, I don't feel like I really want to talk to someone like you about Caldari, you won't understand us anyways.

As for "paragon of Caldari virtue", you see, unlike your gallentean ideals we aren't individualists. Our, Caldari culture, isn't carried within a single person. Every Caldari has good and bad sides of them. Of course, I meant little vices and mismatches, not something completely repulsive to the very basis of Caldari culture, like that Oniseki, who married a girl, or like you, who was a honorless coward.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#140 - 2015-11-03 17:05:45 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Teinyhr wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Vikarion wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You should look a little deeper than his skin and his corporate affilliation, Commander.


Kim cannot look beyond his skin precisely because she cannot look beyond her own.

I wonder when idiots will stop lying about me like that?


When you don't give them a reason to. Meaning when you stop acting like a deranged genocidal nationalist on public avenues - which is probably never - they will stop "lying" about you.

Biased observations.


Speaking of deranged nationalists, funny that a member of the Ushra'Khan would show up.