Player Features and Ideas Discussion

t a hard counter for a gang against ECM, use a Armour Tanked Vexor or something like that, that doesn't need to be tackle, and fit it with 1-2 remote ECCM, 2 of those will break a Falcon jam, you can't really complain about ECM when it is the one E-WAR, that is countable both with Local fits, and Remote fits.

Two words: Sensor Dampeners.

Even on an unbonused hull, a lone damp can stop a Griffin jamming anything without getting significantly closer. Of course, you'll need to get the damp on them before they get a jam cycle off on you.

If you step back and take a look, ECM is arguably the least destructive of the EWAR varieties with the exception of TPs. A sensor dampener can lower a ship's targeting range to the point that it can't lock anything. Tracking disruptors lower the tracking on a ship to the point it can't actually hit anything. How frustrating is it that you can lock a target, but you can't track well enough to even hit it? Of course, TDs don't work against logistics, EWAR, or missile boats. That would make TDs less effective than ECM.

In other words, ECM, damps, and tracking disruption all have the potential to remove enemies from the fight. ECM and damps prevent you from locking, and TDs prevent your guns from doing anything effective. ECM is balanced in the way that it has a non-trivial chance of outright failing none of the other EWARs have. In fact SDs, TDs, and TPs never miss. ECM effects lasts 20 seconds whereas SD and TD effects last for as long as the module is activated.

Another balancing factor is that ECM is a mid-slot module in a race that is purely shield tanking. The other three races can fill their mids with EWAR and put together a reasonable armor tank. It is no mystery that this is why the CFC celestis fleets are so successful. They are combining never miss EWAR with a bonused ship that can tank long enough for logi to rep them. Caldari ships can put together a tissue paper armor tank at best.

One more reason ECM is less effective than the other types of EWARs is that to be effective in all situations a ECM ship needs to fit 4 specialized modules compared to the 1 generalized module that TDs, SDs and TPs enjoy. This means that tank is often sacrificed to reacha bare minimum of effectiveness.

"That is all fine and dandy," You say "but ECM is still too powerful". Why don't we take a look at some numbers?

Take a T2 Minmatar jammer. The ECM Phase Inverter II has a Ladar jam strength of 3.6.
Jammer vs Rifter: 3.6/8 sensor strength = 45% chance of a jam or 55% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Stabber: 3.6/13 sensor strength = 27.69% chance of a jam or 72.31% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Hurricane: 3.6/16 sensor strength = 22.5% chance of a jam or 77.5% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Tempest: 3.6/20 sensor strength = 18% chance of a jam or 82% chance of doing nothing.

See? hardly anything wrong with ECM. Even against the most basic frigate it will fail more times than it will succeed. Imagine if your guns, hardeners, point, MWD, etc. had that fail rate. *shudder*

You see your issue is not truly with ECM. Your issue, is in fact, with the ECM bonused hulls. Take a Falcon with all level 5 skills fit with racial jammers, 2 Sensor Distortion Amps, and one ECM strength rig and let's look at those numbers again.

All level 5 Falcon vs. Sensor Comp. 5 ship:
Jammer vs Rifter: 14.2/9.6 sensor strength = 100% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 14.2/15.6 sensor strength = 91.02% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 14.2/19.2 sensor strength = 73.95% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 14.2/24 sensor strength = 59.16% chance of jamming

That really isn't OP at all. Considering the vast amount of training one has to accomplish to become a perfect Falcon pilot. In comparison the time it take to train a racial sensor comp to 5 or fit an ECCM module is trivial. In addition a Falcon has a tissue paper tank, a non-trivial chance of missing a jam, and unlike the other forms of EWAR it doesn't last forever.

Now you are likely to bring up a rather painful point in small gang and solo PvP: The ECM drone. Why don't we take a look at those?

EC-300 drone strength is 1.
Jammer vs Rifter: 1/9.6 sensor strength = 10.41% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 1/15.6 sensor strength = 6.41% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 1/19.2 sensor strength = 5.23% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 1/24 sensor strength = 4.16% chance of jamming

EC-600 drone strength is 1.5.
Jammer vs Rifter: 1.5/9.6 sensor strength = 15.62% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 1.5/15.6 sensor strength = 9.61% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 1.5/19.2 sensor strength = 7.81% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 1.5/24 sensor strength = 6.25% chance of jamming

Neither of those scream OP at all. "Now that isn't the real story" you exclaim "Most ships have 5!" True:
(How to calculate: Link calculator: Link (P (X>=1)) is the important number)

5 EC-300 jam strength 1:
vs Rifter: 42.28% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Stabber: 28.19% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Hurricane: 23.55% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Tempest: 21.02% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
For 25m3 of drones these do seem a touch too powerful. I would recommend a reduction in jam strength down to .75.

5 EC-600 jam strength 1.5:
vs Rifter: 57.22% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Stabber: 39.66% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Hurricane: 33.40% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Tempest: Or 27.58% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
For 50m3 of drones these seem very well balanced for their size.

You see in the grand scheme of things ECM is neither OP, broken, wrong, out of place, or any of the other things people claim ECM is. It is merely a different and perfectly valid form of EWAR. It is high-risk high-reward, only truly effective on bonused hulls (as it should be) which at best can manage a tissue paper tank when fitting jams, and doesn't last forever like the other forms of EWAR. All things considered, it is perfectly in line with the other forms of EWAR. What's so wrong with that?

bigger ship have higher sensor strength, thus reduce chance to jam.

There is counter against ECM, it is called ECCM, Drone* and Auto-targeting missile

*BS should have 5 light drone which will destroy fragile griffin given that it likely to have no tank if it manage to permajam BS somehow. so if your corpmate can't kill griffin with Tempest, it is not because ECM is OP as hell.

and you think having auto-targeting missles is effective in a BS to do anything but shield off a griffin, or that a small fleet of frigites have a problem dealing with 5 small drones?

it is pretty stupid that a frigite can keep a BS that has a much higher sensor strength permanently jammed

I aint against ECM either but maybe it should base its chances on size of ship so a frigite cant permanently jam a BS

Hello,

I'm actually in FW since almost 4 years so I get in small PvP gangs really often and I'm getting really tired of ECMs, I've got nothing
against the idea of the ECM itself but I think it should get nerfed. I think getting a Vigilant worth 300M killed by a small gang of frigs just because there was a 2M worth Griffin in this gang is not normal. The Griffin was able to perma jam my Vigilant for the whole fight, I just had to wait for my death. A corp mate got the same kind of thing with his Tempest, he got perma jammed by a little Griffin (ok it's a minmatar ship but it's a battleship...).


The first idea is : If someone manages to jam a ship, he gets a malus to his ecm chances for the second cycles, if he manages to jam the ship twice, he got a bigger malus for the third cycles. If the jammer fails a cycle the malus resets. A bigger ship could have a smaller malus per successful jam cycle.


The second idea is : if the ship you're trying to jam is bigger than yours, you get a malus to the chances to jam it and the bigger the ship is compared to yours, the bigger the malus will be .
(For example if you're in a frigate : you got a 10% malus while trying to jam a dessie, 25% on a cruiser, 50% on a battlecruiser and 90% on a battleship. These numbers are only here for the example).

Ok you could say "Dude, it's called sensor strength..." but this would be added to the current mechanics. This idea would get more people to go out with bigger ECM ships like the Scorpion.


The third idea is to create sizes to the ECM modules (small, medium, heavy) but this would mean create sizes for all other electronic warfare modules (damp, tracking disruptors, etc...) but why not.

Fly safe ! o7