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Make player standings to NPC corps a tradeable commodity.

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Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#21 - 2015-10-20 09:36:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
cecil b d'milf wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
you know you can already buy standings


Exactly... the process between players already exists, this would just simplify an already existing process much as the proposal to sell skill extractors does with the character bazaar.


lets just remove any sort of player interaction from the game and throw everything on the market to turn eve into a solo game, god forbid if some carebear has to actually talk to someone in an mmo. what is the point in doing lvl 4 missions if you have bought skills and standings for real money, do they really need to grind missions if they are so rich?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-10-20 10:27:05 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
This suggestion is the tops.

I'd like to see capsuleers also able to extract letters from their name and sell them to other players. This way you can't just change your name, but you could eventually collect and extract enough letters to get a new name you build yourself.


Don't be daft, you know full well goons would simply buy up all the vowels to be arses...
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#23 - 2015-10-20 10:39:27 UTC
cecil b d'milf wrote:
Once Skillpoint trading beds in and all the whiners get over it, CCP will start looking for other things they can monetize. This will come at some point, I'm just suggesting we cut the BS and get to it now.

If monetization starts to be the only real reason for the introduction of "new" or outright daft things, when can we expect new ships to be introduced only against AUR payments? When can we expect expect new and rebalanced modules only accessible against AUR payments? The daftness of your reasoning and that of CCP is beyond me. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#24 - 2015-10-20 14:35:09 UTC
The usual disclaimer that I have not fully research this so I may be off base applies here.
It is my understanding that the system under consideration by CCP is not a pay for SP per say but a pay to move SP from one skill tree to another on the same character and as such it is radically different than what you are proposing.

New players can already accomplish this by buying a character off the bazaar so why do we need this new feature? What is the problem with the current system this is supposed to fix?

Not sure if they still exist but there used to be player corps all over the EvE Universe that for a price would bring you in and raise your standings. They got their start because of jump clone standings, with that gone from the game perhaps this is a new service they can offer.

An alternate form of this is instead of crying to CCP to change the game how about you set up a corp that provides this service to new players, after all this is sandbox and all that and we the players are supposed to provide content and assistance. An added benefit of this is it would require those new players to get involved with vets that can help them in things far beyond simple standngs.

On a personal note I am against this idea for many reasons but here are two that I consider extremely important especially for new players.

New players need to understand the game mechanics at work before moving up into more difficult things. Since missions have come up I will use them as an example. There are aspects to missions like triggers, groups, neuts etc that are added slowly over time as you progress from level to level. By allowing new players to essentially jump straight into level 4's you are opening them up to huge losses ship wise simply because they do not understand the mechanics of these high level missions.

Another problematic aspect I see with this is character skills. Again going back to the missions as our example, so they can buy the standings to run level 4's does their character have the skills trained that will be required to run them? if not then again you are opening them up to ship losses simply because they are not prepared for the challenges at hand.

I will not waste the time to post them but there are many parallels to these in the PvP(shoot other players) segment of the game as well.

So in the end you get a -1 from me simply because your idea looks at and accounts for less than half of the situation, and because of that your idea has the possibility of putting new players into an even worse situation than they are in now.
cecil b d'milf
Perkone
Caldari State
#25 - 2015-10-21 15:21:56 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:


New players need to understand the game mechanics at work before moving up into more difficult things. Since missions have come up I will use them as an example. There are aspects to missions like triggers, groups, neuts etc that are added slowly over time as you progress from level to level. By allowing new players to essentially jump straight into level 4's you are opening them up to huge losses ship wise simply because they do not understand the mechanics of these high level missions.


So it's OK that players will be able to buy the Skillpoints to fly level 4 capable ships, but they can't be trusted with the standings to allow them to actually use them ? What's the point of selling the skillpoints then ? Also this "safety net" doesn't apply to pvp at all since anyone can pvp their brand new, just skilled into battleship, why protect players from PVE more than PVP ... that just makes no sense at all.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2015-10-21 15:31:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
cecil b d'milf wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:


New players need to understand the game mechanics at work before moving up into more difficult things. Since missions have come up I will use them as an example. There are aspects to missions like triggers, groups, neuts etc that are added slowly over time as you progress from level to level. By allowing new players to essentially jump straight into level 4's you are opening them up to huge losses ship wise simply because they do not understand the mechanics of these high level missions.


So it's OK that players will be able to buy the Skillpoints to fly level 4 capable ships, but they can't be trusted with the standings to allow them to actually use them ? What's the point of selling the skillpoints then ? Also this "safety net" doesn't apply to pvp at all since anyone can pvp their brand new, just skilled into battleship, why protect players from PVE more than PVP ... that just makes no sense at all.


To be fair, they're more likely to lose that ship in PVP because they don't know how to pilot, than they are to lose it in PVE.

Having said that, I'm against buying/selling Standings, as much as I'm against buying/selling SP.

I wouldn't have a problem if this new system CCP has suggested was only to be used to remap your own SP, but that's not the case.

Also, even if I hate the idea of SP trading, if the system is going through, then I don't want to see penalties on returns simply because I had to take the time to learn all my skills.
Vet toons should get the same amount of SP from this new system as a new toon.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#27 - 2015-10-21 18:43:50 UTC
No. You can already sell split standng by having someone share mission completion with you.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#28 - 2015-10-21 18:50:54 UTC
cecil b d'milf wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:


New players need to understand the game mechanics at work before moving up into more difficult things. Since missions have come up I will use them as an example. There are aspects to missions like triggers, groups, neuts etc that are added slowly over time as you progress from level to level. By allowing new players to essentially jump straight into level 4's you are opening them up to huge losses ship wise simply because they do not understand the mechanics of these high level missions.


So it's OK that players will be able to buy the Skillpoints to fly level 4 capable ships, but they can't be trusted with the standings to allow them to actually use them ? What's the point of selling the skillpoints then ? Also this "safety net" doesn't apply to pvp at all since anyone can pvp their brand new, just skilled into battleship, why protect players from PVE more than PVP ... that just makes no sense at all.


who said the sp trading was for buying lvl 4 ships?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#29 - 2015-10-21 19:50:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
It is funny how CCP has suddenly become fixated on this philosophy that everything be tradable; but yet when it comes to skins once injected they are dead against those being tradeable. (don't need to be a genius to guess why)

Also what happened to the philosophy that everything should be destructible; it seems with skins and skill points that went out the window.

And then the philosophy that everything should be manufactured by the players; again out the window when it comes to skins and anything else they can sell using a micro transaction.

But it is very noble of CCP to have developed this new philosophy and seem be sticking to it so rigidly.
Wolf Lafisques
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2015-10-21 20:12:53 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
This suggestion is the tops.

I'd like to see capsuleers also able to extract letters from their name and sell them to other players. This way you can't just change your name, but you could eventually collect and extract enough letters to get a new name you build yourself.


Bahaha!
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#31 - 2015-10-21 21:51:30 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
This suggestion is the tops.

I'd like to see capsuleers also able to extract letters from their name and sell them to other players. This way you can't just change your name, but you could eventually collect and extract enough letters to get a new name you build yourself.



lol... best comment ever.

Though, Chance, I respect your opinion, and I would like you to post a youtube video expressing your opinion on this new buying/selling of SP that CCP is implementing.


I was planning to do it this week then remembered I'd be going to Eve Vegas this week. When I get back ill try to put one together.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2015-10-21 22:29:43 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
This suggestion is the tops.

I'd like to see capsuleers also able to extract letters from their name and sell them to other players. This way you can't just change your name, but you could eventually collect and extract enough letters to get a new name you build yourself.



lol... best comment ever.

Though, Chance, I respect your opinion, and I would like you to post a youtube video expressing your opinion on this new buying/selling of SP that CCP is implementing.


I was planning to do it this week then remembered I'd be going to Eve Vegas this week. When I get back ill try to put one together.


Much appreciated.

Maybe you can you it as a car-cast on the way to Vegas?
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#33 - 2015-10-21 23:14:00 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
This suggestion is the tops.

I'd like to see capsuleers also able to extract letters from their name and sell them to other players. This way you can't just change your name, but you could eventually collect and extract enough letters to get a new name you build yourself.

I think you should suggest this to CCP, see if they get the message, was amusing. *chuckles*

I take it you are against the SP trading nonsense, it seems a lot of the CSM are barring a few of the big alliance leaders. I'm wondering how did it get through the CSM without it being shot down? I guess you tried, are CCP fixed on implementing this do you think? Hopefully there is still some chance to change their minds.

By the way I have a proposal for an alternative linked in my sig that may be of some interest if you get a chance to discuss this with them again.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#34 - 2015-10-22 05:13:14 UTC
cecil b d'milf wrote:
So it's OK that players will be able to buy the Skillpoints to fly level 4 capable ships, but they can't be trusted with the standings to allow them to actually use them ? What's the point of selling the skillpoints then ? Also this "safety net" doesn't apply to pvp at all since anyone can pvp their brand new, just skilled into battleship, why protect players from PVE more than PVP ... that just makes no sense at all.

If you want to keep this focused on missions then the answer to your questions is yes, I do think they should be required to earn there way into them and not buy their way into them. No one should be able to buy standings.

Moving away from missions low standings, the problems associated with them and the grind required to repair them is supposed to be a consequence for undertaking criminal actions in EvE(killing other players). The current systems in game already makes repairing those standings far to easy and this idea would make it even easier yet.

I have always found it interesting that those who partake of the PvP(shoot other players) portion of the game are quick to point out choices and consequences and often use it as a reason why carebear ideas to remove some of their consequences are bad. And yet those same PvP(shoot other players) people are all in and instantly for any idea that removes some of the consequences associated with their actions.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#35 - 2015-10-22 08:18:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Donnachadh wrote:
cecil b d'milf wrote:
So it's OK that players will be able to buy the Skillpoints to fly level 4 capable ships, but they can't be trusted with the standings to allow them to actually use them ? What's the point of selling the skillpoints then ? Also this "safety net" doesn't apply to pvp at all since anyone can pvp their brand new, just skilled into battleship, why protect players from PVE more than PVP ... that just makes no sense at all.

If you want to keep this focused on missions then the answer to your questions is yes, I do think they should be required to earn there way into them and not buy their way into them. No one should be able to buy standings.

Moving away from missions low standings, the problems associated with them and the grind required to repair them is supposed to be a consequence for undertaking criminal actions in EvE(killing other players). The current systems in game already makes repairing those standings far to easy and this idea would make it even easier yet.

I have always found it interesting that those who partake of the PvP(shoot other players) portion of the game are quick to point out choices and consequences and often use it as a reason why carebear ideas to remove some of their consequences are bad. And yet those same PvP(shoot other players) people are all in and instantly for any idea that removes some of the consequences associated with their actions.
Consequences are not removed by tags for standing - the effort to repair them has just become possible to outsource. Someone has to spend the time to gather the resources to repair the standing and they are just compensated for it by the person who buys the tags and uses them with ISK. If you burn you security status, you will pay a pretty penny to pay someone to give you the tags to fix it.

It's why complex economies generate so much wealth. Each participant does what they are good at and trades that effort for money which they can in turn buy goods or services from others. You see that in Eve all the time where players farm resources or do parts of an industry chain they specialize in or enjoy doing, and trade that for other things from other players. Tags for security fits well in this hyper-capitalist game setting of New Eden. Further, it generates the mini-profession of 'tag farmer' which gets people out flying in lowsec who serve as content for other players.

I see tag for faction/corp standings similarly a good thing. As long as the tags are not just given as free loot to players already engaging in PvE and are placed outside of highsec, they will serve as a new resource that will get people to put themselves at risk to collect them bringing life to these parts of the game. The only downside I see is that it will put out of business the specialized standing boosting corps.

CCP is also keen on the idea (Page 50). I would not be surprised to see them appear in the next little while.

EDIT: I should comment on the OP though. No, I don't see how trading accumulated standings to other players makes sense. It's pretty immersion breaking and would only shave a small amount of grinding to get into level 4's. If standings are a problem for some reason, better to just remove their requirement for missions than to build in the massive and confusing amount of tags for each NPC corp to trade them between players. That or add tags that can be used to get positive standing like I suggested above.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
cecil b d'milf
Perkone
Caldari State
#36 - 2015-10-22 10:45:55 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
cecil b d'milf wrote:
So it's OK that players will be able to buy the Skillpoints to fly level 4 capable ships, but they can't be trusted with the standings to allow them to actually use them ? What's the point of selling the skillpoints then ? Also this "safety net" doesn't apply to pvp at all since anyone can pvp their brand new, just skilled into battleship, why protect players from PVE more than PVP ... that just makes no sense at all.

If you want to keep this focused on missions then the answer to your questions is yes, I do think they should be required to earn there way into them and not buy their way into them. No one should be able to buy standings.

Moving away from missions low standings, the problems associated with them and the grind required to repair them is supposed to be a consequence for undertaking criminal actions in EvE(killing other players). The current systems in game already makes repairing those standings far to easy and this idea would make it even easier yet.

I have always found it interesting that those who partake of the PvP(shoot other players) portion of the game are quick to point out choices and consequences and often use it as a reason why carebear ideas to remove some of their consequences are bad. And yet those same PvP(shoot other players) people are all in and instantly for any idea that removes some of the consequences associated with their actions.
Consequences are not removed by tags for standing - the effort to repair them has just become possible to outsource. Someone has to spend the time to gather the resources to repair the standing and they are just compensated for it by the person who buys the tags and uses them with ISK. If you burn you security status, you will pay a pretty penny to pay someone to give you the tags to fix it.

It's why complex economies generate so much wealth. Each participant does what they are good at and trades that effort for money which they can in turn buy goods or services from others. You see that in Eve all the time where players farm resources or do parts of an industry chain they specialize in or enjoy doing, and trade that for other things from other players. Tags for security fits well in this hyper-capitalist game setting of New Eden. Further, it generates the mini-profession of 'tag farmer' which gets people out flying in lowsec who serve as content for other players.

I see tag for faction/corp standings similarly a good thing. As long as the tags are not just given as free loot to players already engaging in PvE and are placed outside of highsec, they will serve as a new resource that will get people to put themselves at risk to collect them bringing life to these parts of the game. The only downside I see is that it will put out of business the specialized standing boosting corps.

CCP is also keen on the idea (Page 50). I would not be surprised to see them appear in the next little while.

EDIT: I should comment on the OP though. No, I don't see how trading accumulated standings to other players makes sense. It's pretty immersion breaking and would only shave a small amount of grinding to get into level 4's. If standings are a problem for some reason, better to just remove their requirement for missions than to build in the massive and confusing amount of tags for each NPC corp to trade them between players. That or add tags that can be used to get positive standing like I suggested above.


Good post. Obviously I like the idea that personal corp standings could be traded, I think selling an appropriately priced mechanism to turn them into tags for specific corps is great. Altho I take your point about it being immersion breaking. I personally feel that selling SPs is somewhat immersion breaking, but perhaps it has become necessary or at least the benefits to the players and CCP outweigh the issues. To be honest, since I don't really use them I'd forgotten that tags for security already existed as an example of exactly what I'm asking for. When someone ITT said the mechanism already existed I thought they meant people paying others to tag along on missions (like in FW missions for example) to get the standings buff when the mission is completed. What I am asking for already exist as a tradable commodity for security status, so corporation standing are hardly a stretch. I really think CCP will do this if the TSPs get traction.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-10-22 10:51:00 UTC
I say no thanks to tradeable standings but would introduce a 'referral letter' mechanism to allow players to push LP up to the controlling Empire faction instead. That way a player can build up standings with a specific corp or with the Empire overall. Make the LP stores more distinct based on the specialization for each company too as an incentive to stick with a corp agent.
cecil b d'milf
Perkone
Caldari State
#38 - 2015-10-22 11:01:02 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I say no thanks to tradeable standings but would introduce a 'referral letter' mechanism to allow players to push LP up to the controlling Empire faction instead. That way a player can build up standings with a specific corp or with the Empire overall. Make the LP stores more distinct based on the specialization for each company too as an incentive to stick with a corp agent.


Interesting take on it.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#39 - 2015-10-22 11:04:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
it took me around a week and a half of grinding to get from 0 standings to 5.0 without the epic arc, in hostile nullsec, and because of no lvl 2 agents i had to grind lvl 1's for quite a while, is that sort of time really too long for people in a game?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2015-10-22 11:08:26 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
it took me around a week and a half of grinding to get from 0 standings to 5.0 without the epic arc, in hostile nullsec, and because of no lvl 2 agents i had to grind lvl 1's for quite a while, is that sort of time really too long for people in a game?


I bet you even actually waited for skills to train in that time too Blink
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