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CCP Management Meetings

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DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#41 - 2015-10-20 22:52:03 UTC
Meykud Khamsi wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
I was a new player 2 years ago.

There is nothing wrong with the things you've listed being part of the game experience. If they are not retaining players, that doesn't imply they are bad mechanics. Just that players have low tolerance towards them. Sucks to be them...


Right. They're rational people, and they play games, and pay to play games, and CCP's attitude is "Screw that!!"

You know, some games have PVP flags...
And some games care about scammers...
And some games want players to afford things, especially when they're paying a subscription...

Cheers,

Meykud



1) show me on the space ship doll where the bad ganker touched you

2) the hell you talking about "games want players to afford things" I've played eve for nearly 12 years now, 8 of those years i never once broke a billion isk. but if i wanted something i easily had it... i'd lose it the next day, but i could get what i wanted. Making money in eve is stupid simple. Scammers are easily avoided, as are suicide gankers, grifters, awoxers, etc. In my 12 years here i have prolly be really suicide ganked 6 times. 6 times in 12 years...though i thinks its way less then that. and i lived in hs for 9 of those 12. I've been only really scammed once, but that was at the alliance level and i was out 25b. I have only had 3 awoxers in my corp in 10 years, and 3 corp thefts but they did not get much.

So either you are REALLY bad at eve, or your mentality is wrong and you need to fix it. but hey, eve is not for everyone and thats fine. I like it how it is thanks. And i'm not even a pvper.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#42 - 2015-10-20 22:52:12 UTC
Meykud Khamsi wrote:
There's a surprise -- a 7-year-old character who enjoys playing a game wherein "**** people over!!" is the key selling point.

Here are some taglines:

"EVE: Because Griefing Isn't Allowed in WOW"
"EVE: For When Everyone Is Better Than You At Everything Else"
"EVE: If The Players Won't Grief You, The Developers Will"

Cheers,

Meykud


I only started early last year and those are the reasons why I unsubbed from all other MMOs. EVE doesn't hold your hand. I would rather play a game with 20k people in an environment like EVEs than a game with 500k with an environment like WoWs.

a company catering to a niche market isn't a bad thing at all. It's actually a great business move.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#43 - 2015-10-20 23:00:27 UTC  |  Edited by: DaReaper
OP: you are basicly a checkers player looking over at chess players and thinking they are stupid for wanting to play chess.

that what eve is, chess.

you have to strategist, plan, plot, and sometimes back stab your opponent to get ahead. Offtern time you get your ass kicked, but it doesn't matter. A chess or in this case eve player, will wipe off the dirt, look around and go 'well that did not work... lets try that again but this time i'll do this instead'

The question is not why someone would pay ccp $15 to realize 2 years later they are not having fun, the question is why you, who are clearly not having fun, are still paying $15 to post on the forms. If you are not having fun, start -> control panel -> programs -> eve -> uninstall.

http://account.eveonline.com -> log in -> unsubscribe.

Because as long as your here, then you are pretty much just a sadist who wants to **** and moan about a game he hates yet still fork over your cash to **** an moan about a game he hates. CCP will have no issues taking your money.

So either go back to checkers or stop pissing and moaning.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#44 - 2015-10-20 23:09:09 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
you have to strategist, plan, plot, and sometimes back stab your opponent to get ahead. Offtern time you get your ass kicked, but it doesn't matter. A chess or in this case eve player, will wipe off the dirt, look around and go 'well that did not work... lets try that again but this time i'll do this instead'
To reinforce this point I'm going to quote CCP Falcon's personal view, one that is apparently shared by the other devs.

CCP Falcon wrote:
Okay, so what follows is entirely my personal opinion.

It's not a case of not "catering to the tearfilled entitled", it's a case of us staying true to the core of what EVE was built on.

Some of the people complaining in this thread have valid points about the fact that they don't feel safe. Simple fact of the matter is, that you're not suppose to feel safe in New Eden.

Eve is not a game for the faint hearted. It's a game that will chew you up and spit you out in the blink of an eye if you even think about letting your guard down or becoming complacent.

While every other MMO starts off with an intro that tells you you're going to be the savior of the realm, holds your hand, protects you, nurtures your development and ultimately guides you to your destiny as a hero along with several other million players who've had the exact same experience, EVE assaults you from the second you begin to play after you create a character, spitting you out into a universe that under the surface, is so complex that it's enough to make your head explode.

The entire design is based around being harsh, vicious, relentless, hostile and cold. It's about action and reaction, and the story that unfolds as you experience these two things.

True, we're working hard to lower the bar of entry so that more players can enjoy EVE and can get into the game. Our NPE (New Player Experience) is challenging, and we're trying to improve it to better prepare rookies for what lies out there, but when you start to play eve, you'll always start out as the little fish in the big pond.

The only way to grow is to voraciously consume what's around you, and its your choice whether that happens to be New Eden's abundant natural resources, or the other people who're also fighting their way to the top.

EVE is a playing experience like no other, where every action or reaction resonates through a single universe and is felt by players from all corners of the word. There are no shards here, no mirror universes, no instances and very few rules. If you stumble across something valuable, then chances are someone else already knows where you are, or is working their way toward you and you better be prepared to fight for what you've discovered.

EVE will test you from the outset, from the very second you undock and glimpse the stars, and will take pleasure from sorting those who can survive from those who'd rather curl up and perish.

EVE will let you fight until you collapse, then let you struggle to your feet, exhausted from the effort. Then when you can see the light at the end of the tunnel it'll kick you flat on your ass in the mud again and ask you why you deserve to be standing. It'll test you against every other individual playing at some point or another, and it'll ask for answers.

Give it an answer and maybe it'll let you up again, long enough to gather your thoughts. After a few more steps you're on the ground again and it's asking more questions.

EVE is designed to be harsh, it's designed to be challenging, and it's designed to be so deep and complex that it should fascinate and terrify you at the same time.

Corporation, Alliances and coalitions of tens of thousands have risen and fallen on these basic principles, and every one of those thousands of people has their own unique story to tell about how it affected them and what they experienced.

That's the beauty of EVE. Action and reaction. Emergence.

Welcome to the most frightening virtual playground you'll ever experience.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
ColdBeauty
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2015-10-20 23:20:21 UTC
Don't worry, soon you'll be able to buy skillpoints and PWN UR NMIEZ !!! Lol
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#46 - 2015-10-20 23:23:52 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
But smack with your main, and accept the consequences.
I try. I really do. But it doesn't really work out. Most of the null morons I'm smackin' get confused by big words strung together into coherent sentences.

So I mostly just talk with my guns.

As for the forums. Since I'm a forum alt, yet still years older than most that post with their mains here, I think I've earned the right to keep things as they are.

Mr Epeen Cool
Marsha Mallow
#47 - 2015-10-20 23:42:25 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
I know it's an over-used analogy, but this guy is a vegan, and walked into a steak house, and is appalled (appalled I tell you) at all the meat consumption going on here.

The bolded part is the big tell here. This person has come to this game (whether it was yesterday or 12 years ago) with a really faulty expectation, and when the game doesn't live up to that expectation, he doesn't like it.

Anyone wanna link him the post where CCP suggests that there is no evidence that any of the stuff he complains about hurts retention?

Why not use something real. Woman comes on comms to say hello. Is dogpiled. Eventually chats to some onliner they like, exchanges photos, rl info, flirts - then rejects said person, or just decides to move. They accrue a horde of nasty little followers whose only weapon, is that they can attack a woman in full view of a load of other forevervirgins. So any woman who steps up is crucified, in public, by nasty little online virgins. At some point. I've been monitoring these campaigns all the time I've been here, so try it with me - and I'll cut you, without remorse, because you deserve it. SJWs are newbies with no teeth. I'm 36 years old and I will eviscerate anyone who really pushes it. With me, or with my friends.

So what happens when thousands of professional women with money and no time to grind walk into this game, ready to pay to play? And start doing the ingame narrative thing with real passion? They're going to annihilate you lot, in all of the ways you deserve. And all of the existing men (I mean real men) and women will cheer. We're not talking teeny-bopper 'I R 14 here's a pic of my ****, please violate me on reddit'. Actual women will nail you to the wall, for sport. We just need more of them.

Objections?

You culled my people from this game with your nastiness, and I've been watching you do it. If they come back in en masse they're going to very quickly bring the lash you deserve.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#48 - 2015-10-20 23:57:26 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
I know it's an over-used analogy, but this guy is a vegan, and walked into a steak house, and is appalled (appalled I tell you) at all the meat consumption going on here.

The bolded part is the big tell here. This person has come to this game (whether it was yesterday or 12 years ago) with a really faulty expectation, and when the game doesn't live up to that expectation, he doesn't like it.

Anyone wanna link him the post where CCP suggests that there is no evidence that any of the stuff he complains about hurts retention?

Why not use something real. Woman comes on comms to say hello. Is dogpiled. Eventually chats to some onliner they like, exchanges photos, rl info, flirts - then rejects said person, or just decides to move. They accrue a horde of nasty little followers whose only weapon, is that they can attack a woman in full view of a load of other forevervirgins. So any woman who steps up is crucified, in public, by nasty little online virgins. At some point. I've been monitoring these campaigns all the time I've been here, so try it with me - and I'll cut you, without remorse, because you deserve it. SJWs are newbies with no teeth. I'm 36 years old and I will eviscerate anyone who really pushes it. With me, or with my friends.

So what happens when thousands of professional women with money and no time to grind walk into this game, ready to pay to play? And start doing the ingame narrative thing with real passion? They're going to annihilate you lot, in all of the ways you deserve. And all of the existing men (I mean real men) and women will cheer. We're not talking teeny-bopper 'I R 14 here's a pic of my ****, please violate me on reddit'. Actual women will nail you to the wall, for sport. We just need more of them.

Objections?

You culled my people from this game with your nastiness, and I've been watching you do it. If they come back in en masse they're going to very quickly bring the lash you deserve.
I'm not sure I see how that ties in to the conversation, but I like it. Some good stuff there.

In my defense, I've been up all night with a federal election, a son preparing to move out to open his own restaurant in a far away town and a cranky daughter cramming for her criminal law mid-terms. When it rains, it pours.

So I'm not trying to be obtuse or derisive. I'm just freaking exhausted.

Mr Epeen Cool
Marsha Mallow
#49 - 2015-10-21 00:05:13 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
I'm not sure I see how that ties in to the conversation, but I like it. Some good stuff there.

Yeh it doesn't, but I'm cross-posting on multiple sites wth themes in mind to try plant the seed. Rather than write really long articles on a private blog. Fun thing is, watching the real players step up and not only bounce the ideas between sites but elaborate on them. It's actually amazing and fascinating to watch, and thank you for fighting this fight so strongly. I'm really surprised and pleased to observe it.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#50 - 2015-10-21 00:18:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Why not use something real. Woman comes on comms to say hello. Is dogpiled. Eventually chats to some onliner they like, exchanges photos, rl info, flirts - then rejects said person, or just decides to move. They accrue a horde of nasty little followers whose only weapon, is that they can attack a woman in full view of a load of other forevervirgins. So any woman who steps up is crucified, in public, by nasty little online virgins. At some point. I've been monitoring these campaigns all the time I've been here, so try it with me - and I'll cut you, without remorse, because you deserve it. SJWs are newbies with no teeth. I'm 36 years old and I will eviscerate anyone who really pushes it. With me, or with my friends.

So what happens when thousands of professional women with money and no time to grind walk into this game, ready to pay to play? And start doing the ingame narrative thing with real passion? They're going to annihilate you lot, in all of the ways you deserve. And all of the existing men (I mean real men) and women will cheer. We're not talking teeny-bopper 'I R 14 here's a pic of my ****, please violate me on reddit'. Actual women will nail you to the wall, for sport. We just need more of them.

Objections?

You culled my people from this game with your nastiness, and I've been watching you do it. If they come back in en masse they're going to very quickly bring the lash you deserve.
I get your point and agree with it.

Female gamers shouldn't be denigrated for their gender, because it shouldn't matter. Unfortunately it does happen, because some people just can't accept that a woman can best them in what has traditionally been a male dominated activity.

One of my female friends is an avid FPS fan, I've heard some of the crap she has to put up with and find her solution to be quite amusing; she hunts down the little shites at every given opportunity and repeatedly kills them until they find another server or see her name and find another match.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Raffael Ramirez
Alcohol Fuelled
#51 - 2015-10-21 00:32:58 UTC
Meykud Khamsi wrote:
Wouldn't it be fun to sit in a management meeting at CCP? Do they actually sit and wonder why they can't get more players while running a game wherein scamming people is a legitimate in-game occupation?

"Let's take a look at what new users do. They get suicide ganked. Then somebody scams them. Then they get flamed in local chat. But that's all allowable in-game mechanics! Then the few who do hold on can either run missions or mine asteroids for weeks on end until they can afford a better ship at prices that are hyper-inflated by our selling PLEX that gets turned into ISK..., and that ship is promptly destroyed, and isn't covered by the highest insurance available... But that's all allowable in-game mechanics!"

"Well, if that's allowable in-game mechanics, why isn't our retention rate higher? Why wouldn't somebody pay us money for this experience?!"

Cheers,

Meykud

Ps: I look forward to this thread being locked, as CCP refuses to acknowledge that talking about the biggest problems with their game is "constructive."


So you want to be the hero and always have an advantage above everybody else - have combat without any consequence, have a completely linear game play?

EvE is for the ones that look beyond the usual single player experience, it is a game that is the opposite of everything else out there. Where other games make you the hero and give you an advantage over your opponents EvE makes you insignificant and gives you a disadvantage to start with.
The ones that like challenges and are intrigued by 3 dimensional, ever changing puzzles are the right personality for this game. If you look for quick fun as it is in other games you will be bitter and disappointed. Anything you create and archive especially in the beginning of your adventure is achieved and created against the odds, so basically getting an ore haul home or making your first million is a milestone to be proud of.
EvE is also learning by failure, which seems to be frowned upon nowadays because everybody wants to always win, that is not how it works in this universe.

That being said CCP made it a lot easier to become part of eve in a meaningful way for new players, usually it is the players attitude towards challenges that is the problem not the mechanics.


Marsha : That escalated quickly Shocked
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#52 - 2015-10-21 00:44:19 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
What you say is a bad mechanic, I and many others feel is what actually attracts many people to the game and has been a solid contributor to its longevity.

Mr Epeen Cool

not enough games have idiot checks anymore

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#53 - 2015-10-21 01:57:09 UTC
Thread was locked by accident. Continue your chat.

/tea

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#54 - 2015-10-21 01:59:28 UTC
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:
Thread was locked by accident. Continue your chat.

/tea



WOOHOO!!! EVERYBODY CONTINUE STONING THE HERETIC!!!!!

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#55 - 2015-10-21 02:25:35 UTC
Eve is one of those few games that still punishes stupidity. but more importantly, rewards the clever for exploiting said stupidity. I hope it stays this way.
Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#56 - 2015-10-21 03:22:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Otso Bakarti
OP has a point. The chronically criminal only comprise 18% of the population.
That's a tiny demographic to shoot for, no?

Stick 'em up! Cool


(ISDs are people. TOO!)

There just isn't anything that can be said!
Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari
End of Life
#57 - 2015-10-21 04:20:52 UTC
Meykud Khamsi wrote:
Wouldn't it be fun to sit in a management meeting at CCP? Do they actually sit and wonder why they can't get more players while running a game wherein scamming people is a legitimate in-game occupation?

"Let's take a look at what new users do. They get suicide ganked. Then somebody scams them. Then they get flamed in local chat. But that's all allowable in-game mechanics! Then the few who do hold on can either run missions or mine asteroids for weeks on end until they can afford a better ship at prices that are hyper-inflated by our selling PLEX that gets turned into ISK..., and that ship is promptly destroyed, and isn't covered by the highest insurance available... But that's all allowable in-game mechanics!"

"Well, if that's allowable in-game mechanics, why isn't our retention rate higher? Why wouldn't somebody pay us money for this experience?!"

Cheers,

Meykud

Ps: I look forward to this thread being locked, as CCP refuses to acknowledge that talking about the biggest problems with their game is "constructive."


There's a few thing's I've learned about the stuff you 'own' in eve that I think is important for this discussion.

1) You can lose stuff, and big losses hurt.

2) You don't have to use the most expensive stuff to be effective.

3) Everything is replaceable.



Number 1 is important, because it is what sets eve apart from most other games to me. In so many other games when you die you lose nothing more than a few minutes of your time. In eve it can matter, it's what gives you the shakes in PvP. It's what makes your actions feel like they have consequences. It is what drives you to do better next time.

Number 2 means you can control the size of your losses. Don't want to lose a 200 million isk ship? Fly something cheaper! Gankers ruining your day mining? Use a venture, they're cheap as chips. Don't want to get scammed? Double and triple check any contract worth more than you're willing to lose. Go exploring in a T1 exporation frigate instead of a blinged up T3. You absolutely don't need to run missions 'for weeks on end... to afford a better ship'. Figure out how to do what you want to do with the isk you have.

Number 3 is the most important. Even if you get scammed, even if you get suicide ganked or someone evicts you from a WH and takes all your stuff, you can always -ALWAYS- recover from the loss. Learn from the loss, figure out what you can do differently to avoid the same loss in the future. Get back on the horse and go at it again stronger from the lesson you learnt.


This is why so many of us love eve. Losses matter, losses make us stronger.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#58 - 2015-10-21 11:45:00 UTC
EVE is hard, it's harder is you're stupid.
Aoife Fraoch
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2015-10-21 12:06:59 UTC
I think I see the problem here. EVE has a failure state. You can actually lose. And by lose I mean, suddenly have less stuff, not 'win less'. I understand that 'winning less' is frightfully common and it is easy to start to mistake it for losing due to a number of other games, but it isn't actually losing in a literal way.

Not many people know how to deal with those, and when they come across it, some like the OP lash out in confusion and pain.

Perhaps the OP should find something else to do. Clearly this isn't for them.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#60 - 2015-10-21 12:22:49 UTC
Aoife Fraoch wrote:


Not many people know how to deal with those, and when they come across it, some like the OP lash out in confusion and pain.



Couldn't have said it better. What you describe is a common reaction, where as the less common reaction ("gee, I lost a ship, no biggie, just pixels, now, what can I learn from this experience?") is, well, less common lol. CCP is like a gate, a barrier that people try to get through, and if they succeed you know you've got the right kind of player, and if they don't, well the game community is better off (because if you can't figure out how to 'make it' in a video game, it's very little chance you would contribute anything in that video game other than momentarily hilarious death mails).

Unfortunately, many (including some in CCP itself it seems) think it's a good idea to erode EVE's 'barrier' nature in the vain hope that people like the OP (people that can't figure out that LOW SECURITY SPACE is dangerous) stay a bit longer.

I disagree, I say 'fix your advertising CCP, go out and find non-stupid people if you want more subs, you won't find them at MMORPG.com'.