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200mill/h+ Lv4s, typical 3h run breakdown
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Ploing
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#41 - 2015-10-19 22:34:29 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

Ran two today. First one was stable at just under 50% and the second was closer to 33%

I was having real bad luck with timing my web on the second one so it was taking longer than usual.


second one at 33 is more impotant. means he nearly breaks your tank. will only say its a bit dangerous, but anyhow we are at the wrong thread Smile
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#42 - 2015-10-19 22:38:16 UTC
Ploing wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

Ran two today. First one was stable at just under 50% and the second was closer to 33%

I was having real bad luck with timing my web on the second one so it was taking longer than usual.


second one at 33 is more impotant. means he nearly breaks your tank. will only say its a bit dangerous, but anyhow we are at the wrong thread Smile



Not really. Burners are lvl 4. And 33% is where your recharge starts to shine... now if I was at 22% sure I would be getting concerned. But it never gets to the peak recharge because MATHS

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Ploing
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#43 - 2015-10-19 22:46:07 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Ploing wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

Ran two today. First one was stable at just under 50% and the second was closer to 33%

I was having real bad luck with timing my web on the second one so it was taking longer than usual.


second one at 33 is more impotant. means he nearly breaks your tank. will only say its a bit dangerous, but anyhow we are at the wrong thread Smile



Not really. Burners are lvl 4. And 33% is where your recharge starts to shine... now if I was at 22% sure I would be getting concerned. But it never gets to the peak recharge because MATHS


i know that they shine at that peak and told it to people that had concerns about it. but you know sometimes burners act a bit crazy.

anyway the fit paid of 50 times Big smile
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2015-10-19 22:54:32 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
[quote=Chainsaw Plankton]

Also, the LP market is going to tank since the probe changes... now its almost impossible to lose them.


People losing probes never explained the ongoing high demand for the launchers.

I have always suspected the probe market is powered by all those new players going into low sec based on the exciting tutorial descriptions of exploration and trying to make up for low skills with good probes. Its not that they lose the probes, they lose entire ships to people on losec roams (or just get bored of exploration and park the ship and probes and go do something else).
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#45 - 2015-10-19 23:00:00 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
But 10, of the perfect quality burners that give the 14k lp dumps... no way, not that consistently. Hiding the hours on the screenshot confirmed my suspicions. Hell I ran Burners all day today, was quite fun... but not once did I get one within 5 jumps of my agent. I was averaging 10 minutes a damn mission.

Now you're just being paranoid. Unless he managed to perfectly time it for dozens upon dozens of hours so that it showed 6-7 min? I mean come on, at some point even you have to realize what you're saying and how absolutely absurd it is.

Also you're in the wrong system. Burners are 1-3 jumps from where I mission. 80% of the time its 2 jumps. Now do the calcs based on having to do 8-10(back and forth counted as 2) fewer jumps per burner.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2015-10-19 23:35:18 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:


Also you're in the wrong system. Burners are 1-3 jumps from where I mission. 80% of the time its 2 jumps. Now do the calcs based on having to do 8-10(back and forth counted as 2) fewer jumps per burner.


I get 0-1 jump with the odd 2 jump one occasionally and very very rare 3 jumps, never had more than 3 jumps. Never had a lowsec burner either.
Ploing
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#47 - 2015-10-19 23:41:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ploing
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:


Also you're in the wrong system. Burners are 1-3 jumps from where I mission. 80% of the time its 2 jumps. Now do the calcs based on having to do 8-10(back and forth counted as 2) fewer jumps per burner.


I get 0-1 jump with the odd 2 jump one occasionally and very very rare 3 jumps, never had more than 3 jumps. Never had a lowsec burner either.


kidding me? most burners are 4-6 jumps from agent. rare 0,1,2 jumps

perhaps this is a pattern Big smile
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#48 - 2015-10-19 23:46:32 UTC
Ploing wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:


Also you're in the wrong system. Burners are 1-3 jumps from where I mission. 80% of the time its 2 jumps. Now do the calcs based on having to do 8-10(back and forth counted as 2) fewer jumps per burner.


I get 0-1 jump with the odd 2 jump one occasionally and very very rare 3 jumps, never had more than 3 jumps. Never had a lowsec burner either.


kidding me? most burners are 4-6 jumps from agent. rare 0,1,2 jumps

perhaps this is a pattern Big smile

There is no pattern, nothing. It is controlled by one single factor; where you are. Move to one of the other mission hubs and the distance to the burners will most likely change. I will know, I used to get 6-8 jumps most of the in LS. However I moved and now it's 1-3 jumps.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Ploing
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#49 - 2015-10-19 23:48:47 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Ploing wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:


Also you're in the wrong system. Burners are 1-3 jumps from where I mission. 80% of the time its 2 jumps. Now do the calcs based on having to do 8-10(back and forth counted as 2) fewer jumps per burner.


I get 0-1 jump with the odd 2 jump one occasionally and very very rare 3 jumps, never had more than 3 jumps. Never had a lowsec burner either.


kidding me? most burners are 4-6 jumps from agent. rare 0,1,2 jumps

perhaps this is a pattern Big smile

There is no pattern, nothing. It is controlled by one single factor; where you are. Move to one of the other mission hubs and the distance to the burners will most likely change. I will know, I used to get 6-8 jumps most of the in LS. However I moved and now it's 1-3 jumps.


hmm...observe this Smile
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#50 - 2015-10-20 01:05:09 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Atomeon wrote:
Keep posting that crazy numbers till fozzie reads it and nerf more the high sec activities, because i believe at every DT they nerfing something P

I'm mostly convinced they need some sort of nerf, but I haven't seen the burners killboard either Lol



I don't have time to find it... but it was reported earlier this year that the Burners are killing us at a very good rate. Now its getting easier to run since we are getting more established. But I wanna say that earlier it was like 1/5 attempts ended in a lost player ship.

I will try and find it later.

Also, the LP market is going to tank since the probe changes... now its almost impossible to lose them.

if I remember right it was a devblog about a year ago now. if there is something more recent I would be interested in seeing it.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Those are far more accurate numbers to what many have reported. Like it was said before, and like I posted on post #3, 7.6 is the average Jori was getting. 8 seems to be a good number to use for a highly skilled and well seasoned mission vet.

Assuming all goes well and you get lucky 9 would be the max I could ever accept as average.

But 10, of the perfect quality burners that give the 14k lp dumps... no way, not that consistently. Hiding the hours on the screenshot confirmed my suspicions. Hell I ran Burners all day today, was quite fun... but not once did I get one within 5 jumps of my agent. I was averaging 10 minutes a damn mission.

wasn't it 7.6 burners/hour plus a number of other missions in Jorie's post? I think he had 6-7 non burner missions in his pool of accepted missions, been a while since I read that thread.

the 10 burners/hour is a very specific pull where you only run frig sized burners as those are the ones that average ~6 mins each. 2/14 of their posted 1 hour samples had 140k+ lp. Showing that it isn't a consistent pull, but it can happen. Burner bases take slightly longer but pay out more in isk not moving the overall average much, but lowering the LP/hour. Also running other missions like dread pirate increase isk lower LP, and give you a 8mil implant. then there are missions like the assault which are just worse in every way, but are sometimes needed to keep standings in check.

All my agent standings are positive, I could probably decline The Assault more often than I do, but as I said earlier, just running it every time is shows up means I don't have to frequently check standings.

and the 5+ jumps is where my 180 figure came from, I remember averaging 10mins/burner with those conditions. can't say how many optimizations I've made since then, or how many slight nerfs (when did the LML nerf happen?)

Hasikan Miallok wrote:
I have always suspected the probe market is powered by all those new players going into low sec based on the exciting tutorial descriptions of exploration and trying to make up for low skills with good probes. Its not that they lose the probes, they lose entire ships to people on losec roams (or just get bored of exploration and park the ship and probes and go do something else).

I have a lot of old parked ships P


And yes there is a pattern, all dependent on where you are.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2015-10-20 01:21:20 UTC
The number of jumps is very much an artifact of where you are. Lanngisi is is a good example of a hub that rarely if ever sends you more than 3 jumps. Tricky to sustain a blitz though with only the one agent in system.

As far as 10 burners in an hour the random factor does come into it. I had one agent give me 6 burners in a row yesterday one after the other (though unfortunately several of those were the Dramiel base mission that I do not have a ship for) but I have also had runs of 20 or so missions with no burners offered at all
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#52 - 2015-10-20 01:27:13 UTC
Ploing wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:


Also you're in the wrong system. Burners are 1-3 jumps from where I mission. 80% of the time its 2 jumps. Now do the calcs based on having to do 8-10(back and forth counted as 2) fewer jumps per burner.


I get 0-1 jump with the odd 2 jump one occasionally and very very rare 3 jumps, never had more than 3 jumps. Never had a lowsec burner either.


kidding me? most burners are 4-6 jumps from agent. rare 0,1,2 jumps

perhaps this is a pattern Big smile

that is one of the things that annoys me about CONCORD lp being convertible to empire corps. there would be a lot of interesting corps to run missions for. If lp rates go over 1800 or so the most profitable thing to do with concord LP is to convert to that. moving to that system where I have to go 5 jumps and average 10mins/mission I have to get ~2800 isk/lp to get similar lp value to someone who is running ~6min average and converting at 1700 isk/lp. not even counting the extra reward/bounty from doing 4 more burners/hour

it just doesn't make sense to run missions outside a very small number of locations. Straight

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2015-10-20 02:56:42 UTC
It's burner missions that are really driving the ISK/hr for level 4s through the roof and breaking the LP market. They require a significant startup investment in properly fit ships to run them all consistently, but once you're set up and have mastered them it looks like one of the biggest ISK farms in the game...though somewhat self correctly as burner farming steadily crashes the market for LP items (SoE launchers have dropped around 5M/ISK per unit in the past 6 months).

So lets be clear...anyone making the argument that level 4 rewards are too high is talking about burners. You will be hard pressed to top 100M an hour running standard level 4's with one character. Trying to balance ISK generation to deter people who can invest a few billion ISK in ships to get rolling and have multiple characters devoted to the endeavor is just silly.

I personally never got into burners because the barrier to running them consistently is quite high. You either need to multibox (I don't) or invest a few billion ISK in a stable of shiny ships to deal with all of the burners, and you will probably lose a couple when you start out.

People make these "ISK/hr in highsec is too high" arguments and neglect to mention all the other factors in play.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2015-10-20 02:59:40 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Ploing wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:


Also you're in the wrong system. Burners are 1-3 jumps from where I mission. 80% of the time its 2 jumps. Now do the calcs based on having to do 8-10(back and forth counted as 2) fewer jumps per burner.


I get 0-1 jump with the odd 2 jump one occasionally and very very rare 3 jumps, never had more than 3 jumps. Never had a lowsec burner either.


kidding me? most burners are 4-6 jumps from agent. rare 0,1,2 jumps

perhaps this is a pattern Big smile

that is one of the things that annoys me about CONCORD lp being convertible to empire corps. there would be a lot of interesting corps to run missions for. If lp rates go over 1800 or so the most profitable thing to do with concord LP is to convert to that. moving to that system where I have to go 5 jumps and average 10mins/mission I have to get ~2800 isk/lp to get similar lp value to someone who is running ~6min average and converting at 1700 isk/lp. not even counting the extra reward/bounty from doing 4 more burners/hour

it just doesn't make sense to run missions outside a very small number of locations. Straight


The tags requirement on many LP items needs to be looked out. The vast majority of items in empire LP stores are unprofitable because of tags. I frankly don't know how some of the faction modules end up on the market for the prices they do because even if you're willing to play .01 games the conversion rate is like 800-1000 ISK/LP at best.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2015-10-20 03:55:47 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


So lets be clear...anyone making the argument that level 4 rewards are too high is talking about burners. You will be hard pressed to top 100M an hour running standard level 4's with one character. Trying to balance ISK generation to deter people who can invest a few billion ISK in ships to get rolling and have multiple characters devoted to the endeavor is just silly.

.


To be honest you do not need to spend anything like that to cover most of the single and team burners if you are happy to take 6 minutes instead of three.

The real barrier for the average mission runners is initially skills. Most peoples mission alts do not have the racial frigates or cruisers to V or assault frigates to V or thermodynamics V or any significant points invested in EWAR skills. These are all relatively cheap to train but a lvl IV mission alt has generally trained none of them.
Major Doppler
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2015-10-20 04:06:29 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:

200, 250, 300, eh what's the difference, I've run out of things to care about making a little bit of isk.

That is a bit ignorant thing to say considering there is 50% difference between 200 and 300.

Anize Oramara wrote:

What implants apart form ascendancies are you using? Interested to see what your're boosting. My guess would be rockets? Or do you use light missiles for the team burners?
Also the blood burner is currently my biggest pita. Using a cap injected armor wolf?

I am still using same implants before burner missions were introduced ( they were quite expensive), apart from asc. implants which I started to use more recently. So no implants that increase damage to small weapons ( hybrid, projectile, laser, light missiles or rockets). As for team burners I use both light missiles and rockets. Rockets are definitely faster for 2 of the team burners for other 2 light missiles seem to be more consistent.
Yes I use cap injected armor wolf for blood burner.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:

Wait a second, why did you block out the hour and date?
Those are far more accurate numbers to what many have reported. Like it was said before, and like I posted on post #3, 7.6 is the average Jori was getting. 8 seems to be a good number to use for a highly skilled and well seasoned mission vet.

Assuming all goes well and you get lucky 9 would be the max I could ever accept as average.

But 10, of the perfect quality burners that give the 14k lp dumps... no way, not that consistently. Hiding the hours on the screenshot confirmed my suspicions. Hell I ran Burners all day today, was quite fun... but not once did I get one within 5 jumps of my agent. I was averaging 10 minutes a damn mission.

Because i do not want you to know when I am running missions.

Look I dont have to prove anything to you but as I as said I run 14 1h sessions (run 1 missions for 1 hour Uninterrupted then stop or take break and run another 1h session. (max was 3h in one day)
LP in hour Varied from 113k LP to 149 with average being just shy of 121k LP ( I ignored LP from when I did storyline mission and when there was server lag). Also when I was close to 140k or over 140k LP session lasted up to 63min.
Now 121k LP average equals 8.52 burner missions on average. Also my fits are a bit better than anything posted in this thread. Devil is in the details. Right?
Hint: I also Decline 2 of the Burner Base missions.

Hasikan Miallok wrote:

I get 0-1 jump with the odd 2 jump one occasionally and very very rare 3 jumps, never had more than 3 jumps. Never had a lowsec burner either.

Any hints? Region, Constellation, Corporation, System :)

Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

I personally never got into burners because the barrier to running them consistently is quite high. You either need to multibox (I don't) or invest a few billion ISK in a stable of shiny ships to deal with all of the burners, and you will probably lose a couple when you start out.


Believe me it is worth even if you loose few ships when you start. I refused to run Burner missions when they were first introduced. But after 2 months I started running them. At first only one of them but over next month I mastered all of them.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2015-10-20 04:12:34 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


So lets be clear...anyone making the argument that level 4 rewards are too high is talking about burners. You will be hard pressed to top 100M an hour running standard level 4's with one character. Trying to balance ISK generation to deter people who can invest a few billion ISK in ships to get rolling and have multiple characters devoted to the endeavor is just silly.

.


To be honest you do not need to spend anything like that to cover most of the single and team burners if you are happy to take 6 minutes instead of three.

The real barrier for the average mission runners is initially skills. Most peoples mission alts do not have the racial frigates or cruisers to V or assault frigates to V or thermodynamics V or any significant points invested in EWAR skills. These are all relatively cheap to train but a lvl IV mission alt has generally trained none of them.


All of the fits posted in the burners thread are quite costly, and hell I pvp on this account and I don't have thermodynamics to 5.

I'm hesitant to go to the trouble especially as I suspect burner farming is going to nuke the SoE LP market into the ground. I would expect SoE probe launchers to drop below 30M in the next 6 months.

Even running T2 fits...a stable of faction frigates and AF's + couple losses will cost as much as a new faction BS.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#58 - 2015-10-20 06:58:51 UTC
Major Doppler wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:

200, 250, 300, eh what's the difference, I've run out of things to care about making a little bit of isk.

That is a bit ignorant thing to say considering there is 50% difference between 200 and 300.

yea maybe, My point was it doesn't make much of a difference to me personally. At this point it is isk generation for the sake of isk generation. Burners were fun for a while but are starting to get boring. it's all in the ballpark of 250, tracking it in more detail is effort I cba to spend. if I could push it to a 500m or a bil/hour then I'd care. I don't care if it is 200 or 300, as I'm not going to be running burner missions to buy a titan or something.

Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
The tags requirement on many LP items needs to be looked out. The vast majority of items in empire LP stores are unprofitable because of tags. I frankly don't know how some of the faction modules end up on the market for the prices they do because even if you're willing to play .01 games the conversion rate is like 800-1000 ISK/LP at best.

Tags could use a look at mostly the frigate level stuff. but the low value items usually just aren't in demand. changing the tag reqs isn't going to help that. and a lot of the stuff that isn't profitable is because there is a 5 run bpc in another store.

also tags give a nice incentive to run empire faction kill missions.

Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
All of the fits posted in the burners thread are quite costly, and hell I pvp on this account and I don't have thermodynamics to 5.

I'm hesitant to go to the trouble especially as I suspect burner farming is going to nuke the SoE LP market into the ground. I would expect SoE probe launchers to drop below 30M in the next 6 months.

Even running T2 fits...a stable of faction frigates and AF's + couple losses will cost as much as a new faction BS.

there are many cheaper alternative fits. the ones linked are the recommended ones, which have good times to complete and aren't insanely expensive. I EFT'd a higher dps wolf fit, but it costs 400mil, and IMO it doesn't make sense to use over the fit that the only shiny is the rep. and therm 5 is nice to have but not needed. just gets a little more time on the heat, most useful where you are heating a mwd or a rep.

I thought the SoE LP market was going to implode.. well back whenever I was running SoE missions in apanake like a year ago? so far it hasn't

so buy a few ships, run the burners you can run with those ships, and build up ships till you can run them all. completing a few burner missions pretty much buys a new ship. if the LP does end up tanking you can sell off your ships.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#59 - 2015-10-20 09:16:38 UTC
Regarding costs, most ships have pretty cheap optional fittings and some others are marginal even with quite a bit of bling depending on skills. That said I figure to get over 200mill/h you should be willing to invest around 5 bill in ships and implants and be ready to replace ships. Only lost frigs so far though a few cruisers have been in structure Pirate

I did a rough 'draft' character and with +4 implants and no remaps you can get a brand new character into running every single burner in the game comfortably in 365 days of training. Thats from the starting 400k sp. Thats also without a cerebral accelerator. Thermodynamics 5 is definitely not needed no. 4 works fine and the only place where I wish I had 5 is with the blood agent.

Regarding the SOE LP items specifically, looking at in game price graph launchers have dropped maybe 5 mill over the last year. There was a huge (10mill) spike in December last year (SOE ships release) and it took just under 6 months to normalize again.

However Stratioses have been rock solid steady with near as I can tell almost no change at ALL (apart from release spike) since its release. Heck it even looks like there might be a slight uptake. A single Stratios is 8 1/2 launcher's worth of LP. Astero graph looks way more chaotic (huge spike at the start) but it seems relatively steady over the last 6 months. They're just over 2 launcher's worth of LP. Those two items have added a huge amount of stability to SOE LP and they're both quite popular and often in very dangerous situations (Blops drops, low and null exploration, wormholes). I think it'd be great if their price went down a bit, they are beautiful ships. 17299 Stratioses were lost in pvp alone according to zkillboard, 17,791 according to eve-kill. That's 213 BILLION LP or over 152 thousand probe launchers. Astero adds a moderate 14 billion LP to that total.

And that's just PvP losses.

It's not all about the probes :)

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#60 - 2015-10-21 06:25:54 UTC
wow that is a lot of lp :D

and it doesn't include the ones lost in pve that don't ever get posted to KBs. and the number of ones that get left over there and it is just easier to buy another one over here. leading to a bunch of dupe ships.

as for probes I just bought a set of each for a t3d, they probably won't ever leave that ship and I'll buy a new set the next time I need probes. Although I have skills so for the most part I'll probably just stick with t2 launchers. unless I'm fitting for something specific.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter