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Hyperdunking nerf on sisi, to the battlements!

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Aoife Fraoch
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#441 - 2015-10-19 11:15:32 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
What are the tactics that AG players use against gankers, and why are they failing?

Gankers are more than happy to share their methods and may well be willing to help AG hone theirs; at the end of the day we're all playing the same game and the primary purpose of doing so is that it's meant to be fun.
It's not quite so simple though. Ganking is a straightforward task. You need someone to bump, someone to warp the fleet and x dps to lock and fire when told to. It's f1 monkey heaven.

Anti-ganking is more difficult. They can get reppers on board, but the amount repped vs dps amount is such that you need considerably more reppers, and all of those reppers need to be well skilled and in good ships - there's no 1m isk rep ships, pilotable by week old alts that rep anywhere near the damage a catalyst can throw out. Even if they do manage to get enough reppers on board, alpha ganks make them irrelevant.

There's also ECM. Again this requires decent skills and decent ships, and in addition requires a fast lock and a huge amount of coordination to make sure ecm isn't being wasted on the same ships. ECM itself is counterable by a single cheap module on the catalyst and is one of the few chance based mechanics in the game.

Additionally, all anti-ganking requires AGs to land on the ship being ganked before the gank begins in their bigger, slower ships. Gankers then just move on to a secondary target. This is probably the biggest issue for anti-gankers, it's actually getting to the target in time to do anything in the first place. Short of guarding every available target, there's not much they can do. Then after all of that, anti-ganking has no rewards, while ganking is rewarded with a big old pile of loot.

Gankers know this which is why antigankers are a joke and are generally ignored when executing a gank. How they can balance it, I don't know, but making ganking harder and more expensive would be a good start. Requiring individuals to actually be awake rather than just "lock and F1" for larger ganks would be good too.


The engagement window is pretty small really. I think I did see someone propose two tweaks to address that; more fitting options to tank freighters and longer concord response times. Though I suspect what with people being people this still won't lead to ad hoc skirmishes around targets before concord does come in and nuke everyone.

Actually hyper dunking is one example of a banking tactic that did have a longer engagement window giving an opposing force more time to respond. Did it get used?


I stopped quite a few, it was just a case of patrolling around the pipes, picking up the signs such as a freighter, catalysts, flashy reds, lurking freighter and bowhead then just scan it down. After that get reppers on the freighter and blow up the catalysts, after that a number of things could happen, the freighter would warp out and there was a save, the bumper keeps at it and brings in a gank fleet, or the bumper manages to trick the freighter into accepting a dual with an alt having held him for hours and then blows him up.


Maybe longer response times and more tank potential could be more fun than a dps calculation and a warp in point.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#442 - 2015-10-19 11:22:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
Maybe longer response times and more tank potential could be more fun than a dps calculation and a warp in point.


I was more after something to change the balance so that people would find it interesting to engage, intercepting the gankers for one that were easier to catch and would have to use bigger ships due to a specialised target lock breaker for the freighters , I don't think the tank will do it, after all it is not my intention to make ganking impossible, tank is like increasing interest rates to combat inflation, affective but also destructive. CCP just needs to make changes to create more engaging content around it for the defenders and those that want to white knight.

EDIT: At one point there was people who were running the gates to intercept incoming gank fleets or camping their stations, but the issue is that they had a good counter massed undocking of catalysts warping to instra undocks as a group, I for one always had too much lag even in a full seeboed ship that I never caught one when they did that, my internet connection is not the top by the way. Until people try it they have no idea.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Aoife Fraoch
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#443 - 2015-10-19 11:32:07 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
Maybe longer response times and more tank potential could be more fun than a dps calculation and a warp in point.


I was more after something to change the balance so that people would find it interesting to engage, intercepting the gankers for one that were easier to catch and would have to use bigger ships due to a specialised target lock breaker for the freighters , I don't think the tank will do it, after all it is not my intention to make ganking impossible, tank is like increasing interest rates to combat inflation, affective but also destructive. CCP just needs to make changes to create more engaging content around it for the defenders and those that want to white knight.


It seems that the biggest limitation is that ganks are planned around a limited time on grid. There is no time to do anything because it is an activity optimised to work with concord. I am not saying that more tank us needed by itself, longer response times from concord are also required. Anything which ultimately means that the gankers spend more time on grid. Might even make normal tackle viable.

Think I saw a poster from code also recommend that the level of negative sec that players can engage on should be higher than npcs which also seems like it would give space for player conflict.

From where I sit, AG doesn't really have a role in high sec conflict that concord doesn't nerf, aside from a few edge cases. There just isn't any space for player conflict when the space police are playing on god mode.
Sam Moneymaker
Zdrang
#444 - 2015-10-19 11:47:39 UTC
I don't understand why gankers fail to admit that now game is very unbalanced. So much self-pride and / or individual carebears in eve? So much care for their own selfesteem to deny the simple fact that CCP made their job an easy F1 job with no consequencies?????

1. Time needed to assemble get ganker fleet vs time to get a freighter plus support fleet....like 1 to 10!!! 1 month to train a ganker alt. avg 10 month to train a pilot with freighter / pilots with specialized support. Tremendous advantage Gankers!
Also bear in mind that no support fleet will be able to support a freighter against a massive gank.


2. Cost of ganking fleet vs freighter +support fleet! ...like 1 to an average of 10. 200 mil isk a ganking fleet. 2bil at least freighter plus support. Easy to cover from loot. Tremendous advantage gankers.

3. Bad consequences....For gankers: 15 minutes criminal flag for ganking alts. Please dont say anything about sec status...u can make it back to 0 or make a another alt. For freighter pilots...a high l loss. Tremendous advantage gankers.

4. Good consequencies..For gankers: loot! For freigher pilot: nothing! Tremendous advantage gankers.


All in all, this gankers-freighter pilots fight is nowhere near to a balance.

o/
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#445 - 2015-10-19 11:51:58 UTC
its only unbalanced because freighter pilots make it unbalanced, is it pure greed that you chose to take the risk and not get support for your travels?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#446 - 2015-10-19 11:52:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
Maybe longer response times and more tank potential could be more fun than a dps calculation and a warp in point.


I was more after something to change the balance so that people would find it interesting to engage, intercepting the gankers for one that were easier to catch and would have to use bigger ships due to a specialised target lock breaker for the freighters , I don't think the tank will do it, after all it is not my intention to make ganking impossible, tank is like increasing interest rates to combat inflation, affective but also destructive. CCP just needs to make changes to create more engaging content around it for the defenders and those that want to white knight.


It seems that the biggest limitation is that ganks are planned around a limited time on grid. There is no time to do anything because it is an activity optimised to work with concord. I am not saying that more tank us needed by itself, longer response times from concord are also required. Anything which ultimately means that the gankers spend more time on grid. Might even make normal tackle viable.

Think I saw a poster from code also recommend that the level of negative sec that players can engage on should be higher than npcs which also seems like it would give space for player conflict.

From where I sit, AG doesn't really have a role in high sec conflict that concord doesn't nerf, aside from a few edge cases. There just isn't any space for player conflict when the space police are playing on god mode.


I am not in favour of the CONCORD god like ability, increasing the CONCORD response time will make ganking easier and affect different ship classes, would it be a good idea to make it easier to kill DST's by doing that. Some people have suggested variations on the response time, but focussing on the combat around the freighter is not actually going to do much, Eve is more of a hunter killer or camp pipes gates or undocks game, it is not a convoy protection game, if AG is only possible as a grid protection it will just be played by a few die hards with iron will power and a few idealists with low SP who quickly get bored which is what we have now.

I often think that we should just have CONCORD say oh dear ganking a freighter without a war, your are permanent -10

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Siegfried Cohenberg
Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling
Freighter Friends
#447 - 2015-10-19 11:55:02 UTC
Sam Moneymaker wrote:
I don't understand why gankers fail to admit that now game is very unbalanced. So much self-pride and / or individual carebears in eve? So much care for their own selfesteem to deny the simple fact that CCP made their job an easy F1 job with no consequencies?????

1. Time needed to assemble get ganker fleet vs time to get a freighter plus support fleet....like 1 to 10!!! 1 month to train a ganker alt. avg 10 month to train a pilot with freighter / pilots with specialized support. Tremendous advantage Gankers!
Also bear in mind that no support fleet will be able to support a freighter against a massive gank.


2. Cost of ganking fleet vs freighter +support fleet! ...like 1 to an average of 10. 200 mil isk a ganking fleet. 2bil at least freighter plus support. Easy to cover from loot. Tremendous advantage gankers.

3. Bad consequences....For gankers: 15 minutes criminal flag for ganking alts. Please dont say anything about sec status...u can make it back to 0 or make a another alt. For freighter pilots...a high l loss. Tremendous advantage gankers.

4. Good consequencies..For gankers: loot! For freigher pilot: nothing! Tremendous advantage gankers.


All in all, this gankers-freighter pilots fight is nowhere near to a balance.

o/


Look, all a freighter pilot needs to do is purchase a mining permit for only 10 MILLION isk. He only has to invest 10 million isk in the most important document he will ever receive in his eve career. A simple 10m permit will save a hauler from losing BILLIONS.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#448 - 2015-10-19 11:59:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Sam Moneymaker wrote:
1. Time needed to assemble get ganker fleet vs time to get a freighter plus support fleet....like 1 to 10!!! 1 month to train a ganker alt. avg 10 month to train a pilot with freighter / pilots with specialized support. Tremendous advantage Gankers!
If you want to go down this road; 1 ganker vs one freighter is a rare thing so your time comparison is off, realistically a freighter ganking fleet consists of 10 or more players, the collective time required to get all those players into the ships they use probably equals if not exceeds that required for the single pilot to get into a freighter.

Quote:
2. Cost of ganking fleet vs freighter +support fleet! ...like 1 to an average of 10. 200 mil isk a ganking fleet. 2bil at least freighter plus support. Easy to cover from loot. Tremendous advantage gankers.
Who makes a gank profitable, and why do you have a problem with gankers using the most efficient tools for the task, bearing in mind that their fleets of cheap ships are more expensive to operate than the good old days of insured suicide ganking?

Quote:
3. Bad consequences....For gankers: 15 minutes criminal flag for ganking alts. Please dont say anything about sec status...u can make it back to 0 or make a another alt. For freighter pilots...a high l loss. Tremendous advantage gankers.
The reason that there are so few consequences for ganking is that people such as yourself expect CCP to provide them. The advantage that gankers have is of your own doing.

Quote:
4. Good consequencies..For gankers: loot! For freigher pilot: nothing! Tremendous advantage gankers.
It's a competitive game, competition implies winners and losers, working as intended tbh.

Quote:
All in all, this gankers-freighter pilots fight is nowhere near to a balance.

o/
You're entitled to your opinion; the only people that matter, CCP, have their own, thankfully it doesn't appear to align with yours.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#449 - 2015-10-19 11:59:53 UTC
Sam Moneymaker wrote:
I don't understand why gankers fail to admit that now game is very unbalanced. So much self-pride and / or individual carebears in eve? So much care for their own selfesteem to deny the simple fact that CCP made their job an easy F1 job with no consequencies?????

1. Time needed to assemble get ganker fleet vs time to get a freighter plus support fleet....like 1 to 10!!! 1 month to train a ganker alt. avg 10 month to train a pilot with freighter / pilots with specialized support. Tremendous advantage Gankers!
Also bear in mind that no support fleet will be able to support a freighter against a massive gank.


2. Cost of ganking fleet vs freighter +support fleet! ...like 1 to an average of 10. 200 mil isk a ganking fleet. 2bil at least freighter plus support. Easy to cover from loot. Tremendous advantage gankers.

3. Bad consequences....For gankers: 15 minutes criminal flag for ganking alts. Please dont say anything about sec status...u can make it back to 0 or make a another alt. For freighter pilots...a high l loss. Tremendous advantage gankers.

4. Good consequencies..For gankers: loot! For freigher pilot: nothing! Tremendous advantage gankers.


All in all, this gankers-freighter pilots fight is nowhere near to a balance.

o/


Hi. You must be new here.

You are correct, a fleet of gankers does everything it can to tip the scales to their advantage. However you missed one key point.

1) Freighter pilot is in a fleet (just like the gankers) and has a scout. Freighter never lands on grid because scout sees the gankers in local and the known bump alt on gate. Absolute advantage, freighter pilot.

2) Freighter pilot is in a fleet (just like the gankers) and has a logistics cruiser or two. Gank fleet doesn't engage because they know the next idiot won't have reps. Absolute advantage, freighter pilot.

See how easy it is?

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#450 - 2015-10-19 12:08:30 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Hi. You must be new here.

You are correct, a fleet of gankers does everything it can to tip the scales to their advantage. However you missed one key point.

1) Freighter pilot is in a fleet (just like the gankers) and has a scout. Freighter never lands on grid because scout sees the gankers in local and the known bump alt on gate. Absolute advantage, freighter pilot.

2) Freighter pilot is in a fleet (just like the gankers) and has a logistics cruiser or two. Gank fleet doesn't engage because they know the next idiot won't have reps. Absolute advantage, freighter pilot.

See how easy it is?


1. Scout sees multiple Macherials hanging at the choke point gates, only option is to log, try later, use a low sec system, not a good idea or take a risk. if player has a second account then get that into hisec and use that to web freighter need to be in same corp or do a duel, having the skill to fly a specialised web ship is needed with faction webs for range, I use twin faction webs on a Loki and works very well. Freighter needs to train something like that to be sure, take special care around regional gates.

Note that the ganker made it seem so easy.

2. Oh dear hisec is mainly a one man corp or NPC corp setup due to scatter gun war decs, so join up a corp to have friends and then find a war dec, chances of doing this fairly remote unless you are a small corp who does not do stuff in hisec that often.

See how difficult it is?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#451 - 2015-10-19 12:10:45 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Eve is more of a hunter killer or camp pipes gates or undocks game, it is not a convoy protection game
One implies the other, I even have a real world example for you.

During WW2 the Kriegsmarine operated the U-Boat in a solo hunter killer role for lone targets and upon finding a convoy switching to a Wolfpack tactic where the solo hunter acted as a "warpin" for all the other solo hunters. The counter to which was convoy escorts, often with air combat support (scouts) and fire fighting (logi) capabilities.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#452 - 2015-10-19 12:11:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
Dracvlad wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Hi. You must be new here.

You are correct, a fleet of gankers does everything it can to tip the scales to their advantage. However you missed one key point.

1) Freighter pilot is in a fleet (just like the gankers) and has a scout. Freighter never lands on grid because scout sees the gankers in local and the known bump alt on gate. Absolute advantage, freighter pilot.

2) Freighter pilot is in a fleet (just like the gankers) and has a logistics cruiser or two. Gank fleet doesn't engage because they know the next idiot won't have reps. Absolute advantage, freighter pilot.

See how easy it is?


1. Scout sees multiple Macherials hanging at the choke point gates, only option is to log, try later, use a low sec system, not a good idea or take a risk. if player has a second account then get that into hisec and use that to web freighter need to be in same corp or do a duel, having the skill to fly a specialised web ship is needed with faction webs for range, I use twin faction webs on a Loki and works very well. Freighter needs to train something like that to be sure, take special care around regional gates.

Note that the ganker made it seem so easy.

2. Oh dear hisec is mainly a one man corp or NPC corp setup due to scatter gun war decs, so join up a corp to have friends and then find a war dec, chances of doing this fairly remote unless you are a small corp who does not do stuff in hisec that often.

See how difficult it is?


isnt risk the whole point here?

Who would have thought a capital ship needs a second account to operate solo...

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#453 - 2015-10-19 12:16:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Eve is more of a hunter killer or camp pipes gates or undocks game, it is not a convoy protection game
One implies the other, I even have a real world example for you.

During WW2 the Kriegsmarine operated the U-Boat in a solo hunter killer role for lone targets and upon finding a convoy switching to a Wolfpack tactic where the solo hunter acted as a "warpin" for all the other solo hunters. The counter to which was convoy escorts, often with air combat support (scouts) and fire fighting (logi) capabilities.


Are we talking about a game or real life, massive differences in terms of participation makes your comparison utterly irrelevant, go and ask Marmite POH, and BAW whether they would do convoy protection in hisec, they would qoute you 10 times their normal cost...

EDIT: I love history, the Battle of the Atlantic was a key struggle in the second world war, the interesting thing is that the convoys used to form up near to the exit ports in the USA, so there was often a U-Boat there to gather intel on the format of the convoy and its protection and to get heading for the wolf pack to vector in. So akin to gates and pipes perhaps, but my comment above still stands, one often used by gankers when people use RL arguments against them.

I think you may be referring to the period when the US joined the war, up until that point ships had sailed in US waters without a convoy because Germany did not dare to attack them, once the US entered the war, the lone U-boats had an extended period of time sinking large numbers of solo ships until the convoy system was pushed back to the US coast.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Black Pedro
Mine.
#454 - 2015-10-19 12:17:28 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Sam Moneymaker wrote:
I don't understand why gankers fail to admit that now game is very unbalanced. So much self-pride and / or individual carebears in eve? So much care for their own selfesteem to deny the simple fact that CCP made their job an easy F1 job with no consequencies?????

1. Time needed to assemble get ganker fleet vs time to get a freighter plus support fleet....like 1 to 10!!! 1 month to train a ganker alt. avg 10 month to train a pilot with freighter / pilots with specialized support. Tremendous advantage Gankers!
Also bear in mind that no support fleet will be able to support a freighter against a massive gank.


2. Cost of ganking fleet vs freighter +support fleet! ...like 1 to an average of 10. 200 mil isk a ganking fleet. 2bil at least freighter plus support. Easy to cover from loot. Tremendous advantage gankers.

3. Bad consequences....For gankers: 15 minutes criminal flag for ganking alts. Please dont say anything about sec status...u can make it back to 0 or make a another alt. For freighter pilots...a high l loss. Tremendous advantage gankers.

4. Good consequencies..For gankers: loot! For freigher pilot: nothing! Tremendous advantage gankers.


All in all, this gankers-freighter pilots fight is nowhere near to a balance.

o/


Hi. You must be new here.

You are correct, a fleet of gankers does everything it can to tip the scales to their advantage. However you missed one key point.

1) Freighter pilot is in a fleet (just like the gankers) and has a scout. Freighter never lands on grid because scout sees the gankers in local and the known bump alt on gate. Absolute advantage, freighter pilot.

2) Freighter pilot is in a fleet (just like the gankers) and has a logistics cruiser or two. Gank fleet doesn't engage because they know the next idiot won't have reps. Absolute advantage, freighter pilot.

See how easy it is?


Don't forget to add:

1) Freighter pilot has a single, low-skiled webbing escort which has the freighter safely in warp before the bumping ship even can begin to close the distance. Gankers need bumpers, scouts, looters and DPS to even attempt to turn a profit. Advantage: Freighter pilot.

2) Freighter pilot realizes that he needs to pass through a dangerous system and wisely reships to a deep space transport to move his cargo. He has almost the same EHP as a freighter when overheated, and a micro jump drive to jump away from any attempts to bump him, and the ability to operate solo. Unless he does something extremely stupid, he is essentially gank proof.

Moving your cargo around highsec has never been safer for an active and smart player. There are many tools and strategies to make your hauling nearly perfectly safe. If you do not want to spend the effort, just outsource your hauling to someone who is willing to haul freight safely.

The numbers don't lie. Red Frog Freight completes 99.89% of all their contracts. How much more "balanced" do you want freighters to be? 99.99% safe? Maybe 99.9999% safe?

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#455 - 2015-10-19 12:20:57 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Hi. You must be new here.

You are correct, a fleet of gankers does everything it can to tip the scales to their advantage. However you missed one key point.

1) Freighter pilot is in a fleet (just like the gankers) and has a scout. Freighter never lands on grid because scout sees the gankers in local and the known bump alt on gate. Absolute advantage, freighter pilot.

2) Freighter pilot is in a fleet (just like the gankers) and has a logistics cruiser or two. Gank fleet doesn't engage because they know the next idiot won't have reps. Absolute advantage, freighter pilot.

See how easy it is?


1. Scout sees multiple Macherials hanging at the choke point gates, only option is to log, try later, use a low sec system, not a good idea or take a risk. if player has a second account then get that into hisec and use that to web freighter need to be in same corp or do a duel, having the skill to fly a specialised web ship is needed with faction webs for range, I use twin faction webs on a Loki and works very well. Freighter needs to train something like that to be sure, take special care around regional gates.

Note that the ganker made it seem so easy.

2. Oh dear hisec is mainly a one man corp or NPC corp setup due to scatter gun war decs, so join up a corp to have friends and then find a war dec, chances of doing this fairly remote unless you are a small corp who does not do stuff in hisec that often.

See how difficult it is?


isnt risk the whole point here?

Who would have thought a capital ship needs a second account to operate solo...


You need to explain more in terms of your question, what do you mean by risk being the whole point here, do you understand frequency and how that impacts risk for example and the assessment of risk prevention costs based on a limited exposure?

Answers on a post card... in all likeliness.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#456 - 2015-10-19 12:21:33 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Eve is more of a hunter killer or camp pipes gates or undocks game, it is not a convoy protection game
One implies the other, I even have a real world example for you.

During WW2 the Kriegsmarine operated the U-Boat in a solo hunter killer role for lone targets and upon finding a convoy switching to a Wolfpack tactic where the solo hunter acted as a "warpin" for all the other solo hunters. The counter to which was convoy escorts, often with air combat support (scouts) and fire fighting (logi) capabilities.


Are we talking about a game or real life, massive differences in terms of participation makes your comparison utterly irrelevant, go and ask Marmite POH, and BAW whether they would do convoy protection in hisec, they would qoute you 10 times their normal cost...
Sorry, it's an apt comparison in that the tactics used are broadly the same, as are the counters.

If I was in the business of flying freighters I wouldn't be asking Marmite, PoH or BAW for escort duties, it's not what they do, which is why they'd either laugh and turn down the contract or charge an extortionate amount for it. I'd be using a couple of alts or friends in corp with web bonussed ships (escort ships) to slingshot my way across the universe in short order.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Aoife Fraoch
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#457 - 2015-10-19 12:25:38 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
Maybe longer response times and more tank potential could be more fun than a dps calculation and a warp in point.


I was more after something to change the balance so that people would find it interesting to engage, intercepting the gankers for one that were easier to catch and would have to use bigger ships due to a specialised target lock breaker for the freighters , I don't think the tank will do it, after all it is not my intention to make ganking impossible, tank is like increasing interest rates to combat inflation, affective but also destructive. CCP just needs to make changes to create more engaging content around it for the defenders and those that want to white knight.


It seems that the biggest limitation is that ganks are planned around a limited time on grid. There is no time to do anything because it is an activity optimised to work with concord. I am not saying that more tank us needed by itself, longer response times from concord are also required. Anything which ultimately means that the gankers spend more time on grid. Might even make normal tackle viable.

Think I saw a poster from code also recommend that the level of negative sec that players can engage on should be higher than npcs which also seems like it would give space for player conflict.

From where I sit, AG doesn't really have a role in high sec conflict that concord doesn't nerf, aside from a few edge cases. There just isn't any space for player conflict when the space police are playing on god mode.


I am not in favour of the CONCORD god like ability, increasing the CONCORD response time will make ganking easier and affect different ship classes, would it be a good idea to make it easier to kill DST's by doing that. Some people have suggested variations on the response time, but focussing on the combat around the freighter is not actually going to do much, Eve is more of a hunter killer or camp pipes gates or undocks game, it is not a convoy protection game, if AG is only possible as a grid protection it will just be played by a few die hards with iron will power and a few idealists with low SP who quickly get bored which is what we have now.

I often think that we should just have CONCORD say oh dear ganking a freighter without a war, your are permanent -10


Then what do you want?

The general aim with the ideas I've posted is to create more opportunities for players to have an impact by proposing a few small ideas where the goal was to make ganks take more time (tank for frieghters and a slower concord, or whatever works). Realistically this won't actually change anything, as we did have a slower, less omnipotent concord before.

Right now ganks are just down to the DPS. All the work to make it happen ocures before the fleet even lands. The actions of the cats themselves are as straight forward as the blasters strapped to their hulls. And this is because it's the only way it works. It's like following eve-survival for crime.

If combat is what you want to support between gankers and AG, then for your hunter killer game to work, if i read you correctly, the gankers need to spend more time in space, and probably not chased by facpo. The mechanics would need to allow for shootable players to be where you can shoot at them, preferably before they have committed any crimes.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#458 - 2015-10-19 12:26:21 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
The numbers don't lie. Red Frog Freight completes 99.89% of all their contracts. How much more "balanced" do you want freighters to be? 99.99% safe? Maybe 99.9999% safe?


So Red Frog are representative of freighters in hisec, they have some interesting tricks that make them a lot safer then people can possibly imagine. Sadly Black Pedro has no idea what it is, but I do and I am not telling...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#459 - 2015-10-19 12:28:51 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
The numbers don't lie. Red Frog Freight completes 99.89% of all their contracts. How much more "balanced" do you want freighters to be? 99.99% safe? Maybe 99.9999% safe?


So Red Frog are representative of freighters in hisec, they have some interesting tricks that make them a lot safer then people can possibly imagine. Sadly Black Pedro has no idea what it is, but I do and I am not telling...


maybe educate other freighters instead of crying about balance?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#460 - 2015-10-19 12:29:49 UTC
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
Then what do you want?

The general aim with the ideas I've posted is to create more opportunities for players to have an impact by proposing a few small ideas where the goal was to make ganks take more time (tank for frieghters and a slower concord, or whatever works). Realistically this won't actually change anything, as we did have a slower, less omnipotent concord before.

Right now ganks are just down to the DPS. All the work to make it happen ocures before the fleet even lands. The actions of the cats themselves are as straight forward as the blasters strapped to their hulls. And this is because it's the only way it works. It's like following eve-survival for crime.

If combat is what you want to support between gankers and AG, then for your hunter killer game to work, if i read you correctly, the gankers need to spend more time in space, and probably not chased by facpo. The mechanics would need to allow for shootable players to be where you can shoot at them, preferably before they have committed any crimes.


I think you got what I want nailed down here, but extending the period of CONCORD response time will not do anything on its own, perhaps you could do that with the other suggestions I raised on this thread and having them changed puts more pressure on them, I talked about AI CONCORD hunter killers that are not god like and their status enabling them to be shot and forcingthem to use bigger ships by having freighters be fitted with a target spectrum breaker forcing them away from massive numbers of catalysts.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp