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Team Pink Zombie Kittens Presents.....

First post
Author
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#41 - 2012-01-05 21:51:42 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
"Fix FW first, open door after" .. this seems to be the mantra du jour .
Not really. Open door now. Let the role play alliances (the ones with high faction standings for every corp as stated in the thread) in. More targets, more fights, more fun.

If you want small fights, then FW theater will always be big enough to find small scale fights away from central hubs.

CCP has done a great job on the plexing front with a stop-gap solution nobody else envisioned. Let's hope they continue making improvements.

X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#42 - 2012-01-05 21:59:11 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Cearain wrote:
The question is how can they make plexing meaningful?

YOU make plexing meaningful, not CCP.

w.r.t Bad Messenger's comment about alts bumping up standings of corps: The standings issue should filter all the way down to individual pilots. No individual pilot in any FW corporation should have a negative standing to its faction.

Individual > 0, Corporation > 0.5, Alliance > 1.0, or something like that.

Corps with high standings could help a pilot who is nominally loyal to his faction enter/stay in FW. An alliance could help a corporation that is nominally loyal to a faction enter or stay in FW. But no alliance could be able to keep a corporation with poor faction standings in FW, just as no corporation should be able to keep a pilot with poor faction standings in FW.

Go run those Cosmos missions and get your faction standings up!
Kyoko Sakoda
Achura-Waschi Exchange
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#43 - 2012-01-05 22:00:09 UTC
The new UI is basically the same as the first attempt, except now it's on the left...

The "E" menu serves no real function at all, except for the folders contained within. What lies within the folders is dandy, except that you can create groups on the Neocom anyway, so it's redundant to have an "E" menu at all.

Movable icons are good.

The icons themselves aren't highlighted very well on hover and activated states.

If an icon expands into a series of folders, it should show an arrow icon (or something) indicating it expands rather than opens a window.

The skill progress bar is a decent idea but I feel the Neocom needs to be wider for it to be clearer. The hover state for the character icon and the progress bar should be one and the same.

Station Services might start to get redundant as a window with the new Neocom, particularly with folders like Business and Social. Might want to consider this as well.
Solhild
Doomheim
#44 - 2012-01-05 22:00:17 UTC
New Neo - will there be an option to align top or bottom?
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#45 - 2012-01-05 22:07:59 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
The question is how can they make plexing meaningful?

YOU make plexing meaningful, not CCP.



You cut off the rest of my post :

Cearain wrote:

"There are 3 general views [to make plexing more meaningful]:

1) give me isk/rewards for plexing (lp payout/require vp to cash in lp etc.)

2) give me consequences for plexing (don't let the enemy dock there/have stations change ownership etc.)

3) Make plexing an activity that the community respects. (make it pvp instead of pve - and not just blob wins etc.)

I think CCP needs to look at all three of these things. But IMO the most important one, by far, is the 3rd.

Yes that is the most difficult but I think EVE is worth it."



Now I was thinking that CCP had to make these changes. But you think I can do this? Which change can we make without ccp?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#46 - 2012-01-05 22:24:33 UTC
Cearain wrote:
You cut off the rest of my post :

Cearain wrote:

3) Make plexing an activity that the community respects. (make it pvp instead of pve - and not just blob wins etc.) I think CCP needs to look at all three of these things. But IMO the most important one, by far, is the 3rd.


Now I was thinking that CCP had to make these changes. But you think I can do this? Which change can we make without ccp?


You can CHOOSE to respect the plexing war. The playsers plexing nowadays are much better at pvp than almost anywhere in New Eden. You're behind the times on this one.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#47 - 2012-01-05 22:39:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
You cut off the rest of my post :

Cearain wrote:

3) Make plexing an activity that the community respects. (make it pvp instead of pve - and not just blob wins etc.) I think CCP needs to look at all three of these things. But IMO the most important one, by far, is the 3rd.


Now I was thinking that CCP had to make these changes. But you think I can do this? Which change can we make without ccp?


You can CHOOSE to respect the plexing war. The playsers plexing nowadays are much better at pvp than almost anywhere in New Eden. You're behind the times on this one.



No I can't. The plexing mechanic is a lame pve mechanic. I tried, trust me I did. But the plexing mechanics are too stupid.

And it's not just me.

FW is a only a small fraction of those who play eve. And those who play eve is only a tiny fraction of the potential eve playerbase. And *even in FW* there is only a tiny fraction of people who plex.

If people could just "choose" to respect people who are good at engaging this bad mechanic none of the statements in the above paragraph would be true. Alas it's not so easy.

Conclusion: *CCP* needs to fix plexing. They know this.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#48 - 2012-01-05 22:48:27 UTC
1. You always have a choice.
2. Most of the active players in FW nowadays engage in plexing fights as one of many options available to them in FW.

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#49 - 2012-01-05 22:54:53 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:

You can CHOOSE to respect the plexing war. The playsers plexing nowadays are much better at pvp than almost anywhere in New Eden. You're behind the times on this one.


I think Cearain's point is simply that plexing has never been a primary motivating factor in the majority of PvP fights in Faction Warfare over the last few years. For every good fight that happens inside a plex, there's about 10 more that took place at a belt, on a POS, on a gate, or on a station. (OK, the last one was a joke. Station games are lame and should be discouraged - TURN THOSE STATION GUNS ON THE ENEMY!!)

There's a whole lot of us who have PvP'd in FW for years now barely ever entering a plex - its completely optional, of little consequence, and has zero draw as a feature to outside players who may want to come to FW.

Sure, just about anything in the game can be meaningful if players decide it to be arbitrarily - but there are far more effective ways to encourage fighting that use the mechanics themselves to drive conflict.

The POCO's are perhaps the best thing to happen to Faction Warfare in my opinion, far more so than the "stop gap solution no one envisioned" (which actually, everyone envisioned because we've all been asking for that change specifically for years now.)

With POCO's, there is a real incentive for participation - control over POCO's means control over planetary income. Players compete over ownership of a planet, and planet owners compete with other planet owners to draw more PI producers to their system.

If CCP could use POCO's as a standard for further Faction Warfare iterations, in terms of shaping the feature so that victories and losses have actual consequence, we'll be in great shape.

The arbitrary wardec, arbitrary reasons for "occupying" systems in Faction Warfare, and the pointlessness of victory points other than pure role play simply haven't been enough to maintain a healthy player base in all four factions in all four regions.

Yes, people still plex. Yes, there are even really talented PvP'ers in the plexes. But plexing activity still is heavily centered around one timezone and the rest of the zones only dabble when they're bored of just about any other way to bait a fight.

Plexes should be exciting, carry value when won, and be something that attracts new players and outsiders to join Faction Warfare - not simply remain a filler activity people engage in for lulz when they have nothing else better to do.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#50 - 2012-01-05 23:01:31 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
1. You always have a choice.
2. Most of the active players in FW nowadays engage in plexing fights as one of many options available to them in FW.




Not always. I can't "choose" to respect faction war any more than I can "choose" to like having piranhas attack my scrotum. Ok plexing isn't quite that bad but the comparison did spring to mind.

Most people in FW will not spend much time in plexes or if they do its just to try to get a fight not to actually do the plex. The plexing mechanic needs work. I agree the foundation of how they set up plexing is good.

But they need to iterate on it. They need to iterate so it brings about more frequent quality small scale pvp. They need to drop the whole pve/npc crap.

Here is an actual poll:
http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/2011/12/09/faction-war-mentions/

If anything the people who read that website are more likely to be involved in plexing than the militia in general.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#51 - 2012-01-05 23:03:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Deviana Sevidon
CCP, you really hate Gallente do you?

Half of the people playing EVE start Caldari and the number of flying for Caldari is actually higher then other faction. Finding alliances with corps where the majority of players has positive standing to the Gallente side will be much more difficult.

Your allance to FW idea will only make bad things worse.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#52 - 2012-01-05 23:17:38 UTC
We'll respectfully disagree. However, we should not give into "the tyranny of the "or" ". The devs can fix FW AND let alliances in at the same time. It's not an either/or situation.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#53 - 2012-01-05 23:19:30 UTC
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
CCP, you really hate Gallente do you?

Half of the people playing EVE start Caldari and the number of flying for Caldari is actually higher then other faction. Finding alliances with corps where the majority of players has positive standing to the Gallente side will be much more difficult.

Your allance to FW idea will only make bad things worse.
FYI, Gallente FW is stronger than Caldari FW right now.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#54 - 2012-01-05 23:23:38 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:

You can CHOOSE to respect the plexing war. The playsers plexing nowadays are much better at pvp than almost anywhere in New Eden. You're behind the times on this one.


I think Cearain's point is simply that plexing has never been a primary motivating factor in the majority of PvP fights in Faction Warfare over the last few years. For every good fight that happens inside a plex, there's about 10 more that took place at a belt, on a POS, on a gate, or on a station. (OK, the last one was a joke. Station games are lame and should be discouraged - TURN THOSE STATION GUNS ON THE ENEMY!!)

There's a whole lot of us who have PvP'd in FW for years now barely ever entering a plex - its completely optional, of little consequence, and has zero draw as a feature to outside players who may want to come to FW.

Sure, just about anything in the game can be meaningful if players decide it to be arbitrarily - but there are far more effective ways to encourage fighting that use the mechanics themselves to drive conflict.

The POCO's are perhaps the best thing to happen to Faction Warfare in my opinion, far more so than the "stop gap solution no one envisioned" (which actually, everyone envisioned because we've all been asking for that change specifically for years now.)

With POCO's, there is a real incentive for participation - control over POCO's means control over planetary income. Players compete over ownership of a planet, and planet owners compete with other planet owners to draw more PI producers to their system.

If CCP could use POCO's as a standard for further Faction Warfare iterations, in terms of shaping the feature so that victories and losses have actual consequence, we'll be in great shape.

The arbitrary wardec, arbitrary reasons for "occupying" systems in Faction Warfare, and the pointlessness of victory points other than pure role play simply haven't been enough to maintain a healthy player base in all four factions in all four regions.

Yes, people still plex. Yes, there are even really talented PvP'ers in the plexes. But plexing activity still is heavily centered around one timezone and the rest of the zones only dabble when they're bored of just about any other way to bait a fight.

Plexes should be exciting, carry value when won, and be something that attracts new players and outsiders to join Faction Warfare - not simply remain a filler activity people engage in for lulz when they have nothing else better to do.


IMO Occupancy plexing is the core of FW. Just having a big free war dec is not enough. For FW to be really good there needs to be some overarching goal, which give the fights context. Otherwise just go on sisi or join rvb. (BTW I did the latter and its lots of fun)

POCOs were good for all of low sec and the game in general not just fw. I would not want to incorporate player owned structures specifically into fw.

Hans we both agree that fw plexing needs to be meaningful. But I think you are emphasizing the first and second way (from my post above) to make it meaningful. I am emphasizing the third way.

I agree that the first and second way need to be dealt with. (more isk and more game mechanic consequences) But when the warring factions are built in the game people will just join the winning side. Those first 2 ways to make fw meaningful are severely limitted.

In sum they need to make a system where people want to sign and play because it's great fun. Everyone has their own idea of fun. But Eve already offers allot for everyone except those who like frequent quality small scale pvp. It offers plenty of ways to shoot red xs. You can shoot them in high sec low sec and null sec missions. You can shoot them in incursions and in wormholes. You can shoot them in belts etc. etc etc. You can blob in low sec and in null sec if you like that.

Yet Eve really offers *nothing* for people who want frequent quality small scale pvp. For me if I could sign in and get 3-7 quality pvp fights in 2 hours that would be great fun. Therefore I would like ccp to strive for that in the fw plexing mechanic. If they focus on that then they will add something truly unique to the things you can do in eve.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
#55 - 2012-01-05 23:23:47 UTC
CCP Konflikt wrote:
All corporations within an alliance need a 0.5 standing to join, if a corp within the alliance goes below min standings that alliance is ejected from FW 48 hours after a warning, unless the standings are regained.


Is it just me or does 0.5 sounds like a low number? Maybe make it a little harder to start with and see how it goes?

http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/

The Jotunn Risi are now recruiting, Brutor ancestry required in order to best represent the Brutor interest.  Join channel JORIS to learn more!

Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#56 - 2012-01-05 23:25:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Deviana Sevidon
X Gallentius wrote:
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
CCP, you really hate Gallente do you?

Half of the people playing EVE start Caldari and the number of flying for Caldari is actually higher then other faction. Finding alliances with corps where the majority of players has positive standing to the Gallente side will be much more difficult.

Your allance to FW idea will only make bad things worse.
FYI, Gallente FW is stronger than Caldari FW right now.


I am not talking about systems, I am talking about players and Caldari always had more and with the changes likely will always have the highest amount of players and I am talking about the situation when the caldari militia just stomped all gallente lowsec systems with sheer weight of numbers.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#57 - 2012-01-05 23:28:58 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
We'll respectfully disagree. However, we should not give into "the tyranny of the "or" ". The devs can fix FW AND let alliances in at the same time. It's not an either/or situation.


Agree with the tyranny of the "or". I am one of many who think that this idea has merit, but the timing is misplaced. We could double the amount of people enlisted in Faction Warfare overnight, it won't solve any of the list of problems that has prevented Faction Warfare from being a lasting gameplay draw, other than the hardcore crowd who will stick around no matter what. Those people get good fights, and have fun, but if someone is looking to come in, get in fights, and have an impact on anything they'll be just as disappointed as those who have already came, spent a little time, got bored, and left.

We need to stop the revolving door from revolving - not simply funnel more people in and out of a broken system at a faster pace.

In the long run, increasing the number of reasons to fight will be a much bigger numbers draw than simply adding more people to the militia roster for a short stint. If Alliances are going to join us - I want them to stick around. Not just join, pew for a bit, say "whats the point?" than go back to ganking ice miners in highsec or fighting over nullsec moons, or whatever else there is to do that has a greater impact on the sandbox.

I'm just saying letting alliances in now, and iterating on the core mechanics in the summer, is putting the cart before the horse, and loading the cart with extra dead weight. Its not going to actually mean progress, until the summer stuff hits.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Gempei
Marvinovi pratele
The Bastion
#58 - 2012-01-05 23:43:00 UTC
overheating indicator \o/
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#59 - 2012-01-05 23:59:06 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
If Alliances are going to join us - I want them to stick around. Not just join, pew for a bit, say "whats the point?" than go back to ganking ice miners in highsec or fighting over nullsec moons, or whatever else there is to do that has a greater impact on the sandbox.


Whats the point of any game?

Ultimately the only thing you can do in a game that will make someone want to stick around is make it fun, and even more fun than that person's other options.

But you can't make fw plexing more fun by just throwing isk/game advantages at the winning side. Because (unlike in null sec and player organized controlled alliances) people can always just switch to the winning team.

CCP needs to make fw such that many people find it more fun than other things in eve, without just throwing in game consequences at it. FW plexing needs to offer a method of play that is *different* than what other parts of the game offers.

For me I hope they make fw plexing offer frequent quality small scale pvp. That is something that is not offered by any other game mechanics.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#60 - 2012-01-06 00:45:33 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Whats the point of any game?

Ultimately the only thing you can do in a game that will make someone want to stick around is make it fun, and even more fun than that person's other options.

But you can't make fw plexing more fun by just throwing isk/game advantages at the winning side. Because (unlike in null sec and player organized controlled alliances) people can always just switch to the winning team.

CCP needs to make fw such that many people find it more fun than other things in eve, without just throwing in game consequences at it. FW plexing needs to offer a method of play that is *different* than what other parts of the game offers.

For me I hope they make fw plexing offer frequent quality small scale pvp. That is something that is not offered by any other game mechanics.


Hahaha yes yes, I get it, we need to make plexing about PvP Blink I've been hearing you all along (the majority of your posts are elaborate versions of your signature), and I agree.

Dont misunderstand my comments to think that I don't care about that issue as well, I do. Plexing should be revamped not just by adding impacts to winning them, but the mechanics of seizing a plex itself could be much more fun than blowing up NPC's and orbiting a button.

The only reason I don't emphasize "plexes should be about PvP" more often is that CCP hasn't outright said "we're revamping plexes, here's what we're proposing..." We can't control what they decide to work on, we can only comment on the proposals they make, including pointing out they might be better off working on something else instead.

As long as they're throwing out stuff like "lets remove all highsec NPC's" and "lets just allow alliances into FW" as iterations for Faction Warfare, I'm going to make sure those suggestions are addressed first, before we get on to the plexing debate.

I'm right there with you on lets make FW all about smaller scale, intense PvP. That's been the scene's biggest draw all along - not the consequences of ownership. But the two go hand in hand - no carrots = no fights. More pilots in the militia without fixing the "carrot" issue simply means more militia pilots going "where's the action at?".

The carrot can just as easily be that the mechanics of seizing a plex is fun enough to be the reward in and of itself. But given that this thread is about Alliances in FW, I'm just trying to focus on that issue first rather than have another nuanced plex discussion, and emphasize that CCP should listen to the FW community who has been demanding just about everything else BUT alliance participation, including but not limited to "make plexes about PvP not PvE".

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary