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ECM nerf ideas

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Adrien Aideron
Ordo Ab Chao 333
#1 - 2015-10-17 17:31:11 UTC
Hello,

I'm actually in FW since almost 4 years so I get in small PvP gangs really often and I'm getting really tired of ECMs, I've got nothing
against the idea of the ECM itself but I think it should get nerfed. I think getting a Vigilant worth 300M killed by a small gang of frigs just because there was a 2M worth Griffin in this gang is not normal. The Griffin was able to perma jam my Vigilant for the whole fight, I just had to wait for my death. A corp mate got the same kind of thing with his Tempest, he got perma jammed by a little Griffin (ok it's a minmatar ship but it's a battleship...).


The first idea is : If someone manages to jam a ship, he gets a malus to his ecm chances for the second cycles, if he manages to jam the ship twice, he got a bigger malus for the third cycles. If the jammer fails a cycle the malus resets. A bigger ship could have a smaller malus per successful jam cycle.


The second idea is : if the ship you're trying to jam is bigger than yours, you get a malus to the chances to jam it and the bigger the ship is compared to yours, the bigger the malus will be .
(For example if you're in a frigate : you got a 10% malus while trying to jam a dessie, 25% on a cruiser, 50% on a battlecruiser and 90% on a battleship. These numbers are only here for the example).

Ok you could say "Dude, it's called sensor strength..." but this would be added to the current mechanics. This idea would get more people to go out with bigger ECM ships like the Scorpion.


The third idea is to create sizes to the ECM modules (small, medium, heavy) but this would mean create sizes for all other electronic warfare modules (damp, tracking disruptors, etc...) but why not.

Fly safe ! o7
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#2 - 2015-10-17 21:55:37 UTC  |  Edited by: unidenify
bigger ship have higher sensor strength, thus reduce chance to jam.

There is counter against ECM, it is called ECCM, Drone* and Auto-targeting missile

*BS should have 5 light drone which will destroy fragile griffin given that it likely to have no tank if it manage to permajam BS somehow. so if your corpmate can't kill griffin with Tempest, it is not because ECM is OP as hell.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#3 - 2015-10-17 22:18:10 UTC
ECM is fine, nerf Adrien Aideron nerf threads instead

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
kimi chon
Doomheim
#4 - 2015-10-17 22:42:58 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#5 - 2015-10-18 00:04:18 UTC
the new battle brawling griffin should be a ton of fun Twisted

unidenify wrote:
bigger ship have higher sensor strength, thus reduce chance to jam.

There is counter against ECM, it is called ECCM, Drone* and Auto-targeting missile

*BS should have 5 light drone which will destroy fragile griffin given that it likely to have no tank if it manage to permajam BS somehow. so if your corpmate can't kill griffin with Tempest, it is not because ECM is OP as hell.

in solo/small gang it can be hard to justify using a slot for ECM. especially since it only reduces your chance of getting jammed, and unless an ECM ship shows up it doesn't do anything.

fofs go after the nearest target which is almost never going to be an ECM ship. and rarely be a target that makes sense. useful for semi-afk pve sure, pvp maybe not so much.

getting your 5 light drones on said griffin is near impossible when jammed. also since ECM optimal on a griffin is 50km+ that is going to be out of range of many ships, plus if it does start taking hits it can bounce off grid and do drive by attempts at jamming.

as gang size increases organizing jams becomes more difficult and the not jammed ships usually have the ability to volley ECM ships off the field.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Adrien Aideron
Ordo Ab Chao 333
#6 - 2015-10-18 17:03:17 UTC
By the way the Tempest had an ECCM overheated
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#7 - 2015-10-19 00:13:40 UTC
Two words: Sensor Dampeners.

Even on an unbonused hull, a lone damp can stop a Griffin jamming anything without getting significantly closer. Of course, you'll need to get the damp on them before they get a jam cycle off on you.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Atomeon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-10-19 00:39:20 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Two words: Sensor Dampeners.

Even on an unbonused hull, a lone damp can stop a Griffin jamming anything without getting significantly closer. Of course, you'll need to get the damp on them before they get a jam cycle off on you.


Two words: Frigate Battleship.
Guess who will lock first P
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#9 - 2015-10-19 00:40:29 UTC
one damp puts a griffin's lock range at 55km (with leadership gang bonuses, don't make me bust out the gang links) which more or less matches its jams optimal range. I'm not going to consider that a valid counter.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#10 - 2015-10-19 00:44:56 UTC
so use two then? or have some friends along in EWAR boats?

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#11 - 2015-10-19 04:52:54 UTC
fit two unbonused damps to go solo roaming to somewhat defend against griffins, brilliant advice!

the bring friends idea is actually a pretty good one. ECM's biggest weakness is more targets. more targets means you have to spread your jams out, and it gets hard to coordinate jams between multiple ecm ships. plus a missed cycle could mean the ecm ship gets blown up as at least one person can target stuff.

I like the idea of solo pvp being something that is accessible, e-war is rather oppressive vs solo targets. ECM seems the most oppressive. TDs you can manage transversal or swap ammos, vs damps close range or try and burn out of range of the damp ship, vs neuts ASB or cap inject, vs ECM start praying. you can keep your tank going but you get hit with 2-3 cycles in a row and you just want to give up. with the other ewars you can try a few things before feeling helpless. heat + links makes for some rather strong ewar, that well usually doesn't result in happy.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#12 - 2015-10-19 10:39:34 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
fit two unbonused damps to go solo roaming to somewhat defend against griffins, brilliant advice!

the bring friends idea is actually a pretty good one. ECM's biggest weakness is more targets. more targets means you have to spread your jams out, and it gets hard to coordinate jams between multiple ecm ships. plus a missed cycle could mean the ecm ship gets blown up as at least one person can target stuff.

I like the idea of solo pvp being something that is accessible, e-war is rather oppressive vs solo targets. ECM seems the most oppressive. TDs you can manage transversal or swap ammos, vs damps close range or try and burn out of range of the damp ship, vs neuts ASB or cap inject, vs ECM start praying. you can keep your tank going but you get hit with 2-3 cycles in a row and you just want to give up. with the other ewars you can try a few things before feeling helpless. heat + links makes for some rather strong ewar, that well usually doesn't result in happy.

Yup, the good ship friendship is your best and sometimes only counter to ecm. That or don't engage at all What? . It does mean that if people see ECM ships on dscan they suddenly become very weary of engaging. ECM only really adds engaging gameplay for both sides at mid to large sized fights in my opinion. For that reason you don't want to nerf ECM but if theres anything that can be done for solo/small gang no idea.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Garrett Osinov
Doomheim
#13 - 2015-10-19 11:13:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Garrett Osinov
If you cant play the game, then quit it. And stop whining about nerfs !!!

What stops you to bring griffin yourself, sensor dampener ship, of fit 1 sensor dampener to each of yours ships ?
Adrien Aideron
Ordo Ab Chao 333
#14 - 2015-10-19 13:42:27 UTC
Garrett Osinov wrote:
What stops you to bring griffin yourself, sensor dampener ship, of fit 1 sensor dampener to each of yours ships ?


1) If it's not the kind of gameplay you like?

2) In small ships you don't have free mid slots for damps or ECCM and as it's been told earlier only one damp won't stop a Griffin trying to jam you.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#15 - 2015-10-19 14:39:26 UTC
Adrien Aideron wrote:
Garrett Osinov wrote:
What stops you to bring griffin yourself, sensor dampener ship, of fit 1 sensor dampener to each of yours ships ?


1) If it's not the kind of gameplay you like?

2) In small ships you don't have free mid slots for damps or ECCM and as it's been told earlier only one damp won't stop a Griffin trying to jam you.


Your comparing a very specialised ship that dedicate most of its modules to ECM vs any random ship you can get your hands on.
What is the lock range for a Griffin after 1 or 2 damps from a Keres (heated with links?)

Basily EWAR ships are insanely strong when you min/max them for their role
PhantomMajor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2015-10-20 05:51:11 UTC
there plenty of ways to offset ewar strengths, adapt or die....oh wait you did die.

so endith the lesson on Darwinian evolution
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#17 - 2015-10-20 06:42:25 UTC
a keres is a much better option and rather useful for the small gang, especially a kitey gang.

bringing a keres or counter griffin doesn't really do much when you are solo pvping. there are many solo situations where the soloer can do amazing things. either fighting out numbered and picking people off, managing reps to tank the incoming damage while killing targets, or using smart piloting to fight a larger target. Then someone quickly reships to a griffin with specific jammers, and the soloer gets dead.

big miker nearly soloed a carrier the other day, then they brought an ECM ship. although in this case that didn't work as miker was in a vargur and you can't jam a bastioned marauder. I say nearly soloed because a few of his corp mates showed up to finish it off.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Dungheap
DHCOx
#18 - 2015-10-20 23:50:35 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:

in solo/small gang it can be hard to justify using a slot for ECM. especially since it only reduces your chance of getting jammed, and unless an ECM ship shows up it doesn't do anything.


this is the same argument miners used when told to tank their barges against ganking .. they were mocked for complaining about something that has in game counters available ..
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#19 - 2015-10-21 01:49:39 UTC
Dungheap wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:

in solo/small gang it can be hard to justify using a slot for ECM. especially since it only reduces your chance of getting jammed, and unless an ECM ship shows up it doesn't do anything.


this is the same argument miners used when told to tank their barges against ganking .. they were mocked for complaining about something that has in game counters available ..

Meaning to or not, that is a strawman argument.

Regardless, ECM is a valid tactic within the framework of the game, I am definitely behind that. Unfortunately it has a very negative effect on solo play. This is also simply a fact. It is not a potential rewarding mechanic the same way being damped or tracking disrupted can be, where through smart piloting on the soloer's part or a mistake on the ewar ship's part it can be overcome. It's just down to luck, for the most part. It sucks dieing to luck, or lack there off. It's an on/of switch, a binary mechanic that removes a level of depth that is part and parcel of Solo play. Once you reach mid to large gang size you have all kinds of fun and interesting counter mechanics that make jamming a fun mechanic again.

That's been my experience.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Ace Lapointe
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2015-10-21 02:44:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ace Lapointe
ECM is fine I think, I have fought against Gangs that had Griffon and Blackbird support and they only got 2 Jams off on me over a 4 minute fight, it is all luck, trust me if you want something more frustrating then ECM, wait till your awesome Solo BS gets caught by a single Gal Recon with a Scram and 3-4 Damps, and you will be stuckwith under 20km lock range, and can't warp off, that to me is worse, at least ECM is chance based, and not 100% just cause you are in optimal, ECM boats also have 0 Tank if they are dedicated ECM boats, Damp, TD, TP, Web, Point ships are all Armour Tankers though, so they have massive EHP compared to ECM ships, so it could be worse, it just seems overpowered when you are at it's mercy.

If you want a hard counter for a gang against ECM, use a Armour Tanked Vexor or something like that, that doesn't need to be tackle, and fit it with 1-2 remote ECCM, 2 of those will break a Falcon jam, you can't really complain about ECM when it is the one E-WAR, that is countable both with Local fits, and Remote fits.

But yes, it sucks for Solo pilots trying to fight a gang, but there is ways past it, I would prefer to fight a gang with a Griffon rather then a Damp ship, cause ECM can at least miss and then you pop the ECM ship, Damp don't 'miss', they just let you watch your ship die, I might be the only person that thinks like that, but it is the most logical way to think, people just don't like being jammed because it does give you nothing to do for 20 seconds, where as Damps allow you to still lock things if they get in range, which gives you the feeling that you can still fight back, but a good gang with a dedicated Damp ship will ruin your day 100% if you don't land on top of it, ECM can still fail though.
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