These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Crime & Punishment

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Hyperdunking nerf on sisi, to the battlements!

First post First post
Author
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#301 - 2015-10-17 11:36:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Black Pedro wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
As I said in reply to Mag, CCP has to look at ways to keep those casual players and that T2 destroyer is a smart move, however it is still unbalanced and here is why, a T2 destroyer which will cost 10 times what a T1 destroyer costs being used by a group that has no null sec funding to pay for their loss exposing that to be ganked by a t1 destroyer with a fully funded by null sec alliance entity, that is unbalanced, totally unbalanced. So no its still not balanced!
You are in charge of CCP. What changes would you make to the game to make freighter ganking in highsec balanced?


CCP has a tough job because the changes they make affect the different sand boxes, one has to sit bakc and look as Eve as one sand box but it has a number of unique sand boxes, WH space, null sec, NPC null sec, low sec and hisec, there is a certain amount of interdependency, the first thing I would do and CCP is moving well is to make it so null sec can operate as a full circle space to cover all apsects of production apart from T3 of course, also in doing so they must make it so that the advantages of null do not mean that it destroys other areas, so JF range has to be nerfed to 5LY.

This is important in terms of hisec, because hisec has to import certain high end minerals and of course moon goo and that should not change. With the new structures I hope that hisec can compete better with null sec in terms of industry.

So with that we create null sec market hubs, especially important with the new structures and to prevent meta gaming hell I would make it so that only people who have blue status can trade in them.

Once we have that sorted we can now move onto ganking in hisec. Starting from the proviso that there has to be risk in hisec as a base point, it comes to the fact of refining that risk based on what affects the hisec sandbox to try to create a happy level of balance, without destroying what is core to Eve and that is tough.

At the moment CODE which is funded by Goons in the main is an inbalance, the mechanics are all to their advantage, because there is no way to be pro-active, people go on about being -10, but people in Catalysts are very difficult to catch if they know what they are doing. I have detailed above a number of different solutions, for example harsher hisec penalties for gankers, including loss of docking rights in NPC stations and a AI CONCORD that hunts the ganker for 15 minutes while in space, which will hang around a victim. With that CODE would have to have a Citadel structure in Uedama for example which creates a choke point, but something that can be attacked.

On suggestion is to have a special definition for criminals within the game that makes them suspect based on certain criteria and longer than the normal period, so if Mr Goon with +5.00 security status blaps a freighter he immediately goes into that list and is suspect for 2 hours, add to that a new special medium power target lock breaker module that is special for freighters that forces people to use ships above Catalysts, we now have content that enables the AG players to actually be proactive.

Instead of CONCORD it is player driven content and the mechanics now enable active AG content rather than sitting waiting for the brief period to blap what they can, ECM as much as they can once they start firing and rep as much as they can, it will enable active combat that is more like what Eve players expect. Then it will truly be down to the players at that point...

EDIT admiral root is now blocked, as he has nothing intelligent to add.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

admiral root
Red Galaxy
#302 - 2015-10-17 11:40:05 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Personally I would code in some CONCORD AI captain who would fly off to the freighter being bumped, then after a bit and careful analysis of the bumping he would apply a suspect status to the battleship bumping the freighter, now as an AG pilot I have the ability to go give you lot some risk...


Typical response from you - CCP, please nerf highsec even more so I can find some other reason not to shoot the good guys. As an alleged AG pilot you can already provide the same amount of risk as you could if the bumper were suspect - you can activate your civiilian backbone module and shoot him.

I can find neither a face nor palm big enough.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

admiral root
Red Galaxy
#303 - 2015-10-17 11:43:13 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
]You are in charge of CCP. What changes would you make to the game to make freighter ganking in highsec balanced?


CCP has a tough job...


Please answer his question. What changes would you make? The answer will look something like this:

If I were in charge of CCP:

Concord would no longer be invincible
Faction police would be removed
GCC would create a beacon on everyone's overview
etc

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#304 - 2015-10-17 11:52:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Dracvlad wrote:
Personally I would code in some CONCORD AI captain who would fly off to the freighter being bumped, then after a bit and careful analysis of the bumping he would apply a suspect status to the battleship bumping the freighter, now as an AG pilot I have the ability to go give you lot some risk..
Careful Dracvlad you're straying into Veers territory there, and we all know what a capricious and schizophrenic spanner he is/was.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#305 - 2015-10-17 11:54:06 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Personally I would code in some CONCORD AI captain who would fly off to the freighter being bumped, then after a bit and careful analysis of the bumping he would apply a suspect status to the battleship bumping the freighter, now as an AG pilot I have the ability to go give you lot some risk..
Careful Dracvlad, you're straying into Veers territory there, and we all know what a capricious and schizophrenic spanner he is/was.


The Veers insult, how so unoriginal...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#306 - 2015-10-17 11:56:45 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Personally I would code in some CONCORD AI captain who would fly off to the freighter being bumped, then after a bit and careful analysis of the bumping he would apply a suspect status to the battleship bumping the freighter, now as an AG pilot I have the ability to go give you lot some risk..
Careful Dracvlad, you're straying into Veers territory there, and we all know what a capricious and schizophrenic spanner he is/was.


The Veers insult, how so unoriginal...
It wasn't an insult, it was an observation. The quoted part of your post is almost identical to one of his favoured suggestions.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#307 - 2015-10-17 12:00:02 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Personally I would code in some CONCORD AI captain who would fly off to the freighter being bumped, then after a bit and careful analysis of the bumping he would apply a suspect status to the battleship bumping the freighter, now as an AG pilot I have the ability to go give you lot some risk..
Careful Dracvlad, you're straying into Veers territory there, and we all know what a capricious and schizophrenic spanner he is/was.


The Veers insult, how so unoriginal...
It wasn't an insult, it was an observation. The quoted part of your post is almost identical to one of his favoured suggestions.


Well that was actually sensible so what's you issue, but I think the suggestion I put forward in reply to Black Pedro is better, because that with the T2 destroyer with the MJD works very well. Then it will be players against players without having to wait for the first shot apart from the first gank of course...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#308 - 2015-10-17 12:12:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Dracvlad wrote:
Well that was actually sensible
Nah, it wasn't sensible at all. You're expecting a binary AI to be able to determine player motivations and flag for it, you're also expecting that such a thing can even be coded.

If bumping ever becomes flaggable it will be dealt with by Crimewatch, not Concord.

If such a thing ever came to pass much hilarity would ensue when the Jita 4-4 undock and the like is blockaded by people looking to kill stuff without Concord punishing them for it; because they will make sure that everything that undocks will get flagged as a suspect when it bumps another ship. You're placing entirely too much confidence in the ability of a set game mechanic to discern between accidental and deliberate bumping and not enough in the ability of players to figure out how to get other people to flag themselves unintentionally.

It's very nearly as dumb an idea as the oft posted suggestion that bumping becomes more realistic in terms of what happens when 2 objects collide in space, all the while ignoring that Newtons 3rd law, the conservation of momentum and kinetic energy transfers would result in people using oversized MWD frigates as ammunition in order to make stuff explode.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Mag's
Azn Empire
#309 - 2015-10-17 12:24:57 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
So as hyperdunking enabled solo ganking of freighters then you don't have an issue with the change then?

That story works as I intended it too, to show how it affects casual players and their attitude to the game, you may reject it that's your call, but CCP cannot afford to reject that, personally I think they are acting too late and screwed up as soon as they allowed hyperdunking to be applied to ships, a truly stupid call CCP Falcon...

As for me I have proved to myself that I can make lots of ISK and kill stuff in a game that is hard, I find the puerile behaviour of much of the Eve player base irritating, the PvE is boring and even the combat is boring, piloting skill does matter a bit, but not much, its mainly getting the drop on people, which is more fun when you are outnumbered as I normally am. I had some fun with the drifters, as that was a challenge, being in a fleet that killed drifters for no loss was fun and engaging, much more fun then trying to get around all the advantages that CODE have.

In any case if the game is simply bigger numbers win then whats the fun and why bother, over to you Sherlock...
We've already been over the whole solo thing Drac. Solo doesn't necessarily mean without support, as you know. So I'm OK with hyperdunking, because solo in this instance includes self help and it can be avoided solo, with self help.

In other words, solo and single account, can mean different things. No matter how much you try to move those goal posts.

The story. Yes exactly. It showed how someone's attitude to the game, suddenly became everyone else's fault. It shows how even though it's been shown time and again that help helps, there are still pilots out there running alone without support. But instead of understanding that friends or self help in this MMO is preferred, look to change the mechanics. Why? Well because other who have friends and self help can beat them, so the game's broken apparently.

In other words, you and they blame the game and it's mechanics and ignore the obvious. Friends.

I have had fun outnumbered. I've had fun when I decided not to jump out a dread, even though I could. But what you and I enjoy, is irrelevant to what others enjoy. Again, this isn't the fault of the game, just different styles of play.

But in the case of freighter ganking, it's not simply numbers that win. One friend can remove you from the risk of being ganked in a freighter. That's one friend. So much so, it's almost guaranteed to work. Should it always work? Well no and if someone dies even with help, that's good.

In other words when they use a friend and it can make such a difference, why is the game at fault when they don't? I'm not even sure Sherlock can answer that one.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#310 - 2015-10-17 12:25:45 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Well that was actually sensible
Nah, it wasn't sensible at all. You're expecting a binary AI to be able to determine player motivations and flag for it, you're also expecting that such a thing can even be coded.

It's very nearly as dumb an idea as suggesting that bumping becomes more realistic in terms of what happens when 2 objects weighing thousands of tons collide, while ignoring that Newtons 3rd law, the conservation of momentum and kinetic energy transfers would result in people using oversized MWD frigates as ammunition in order to make stuff explode.

If bumping ever becomes flaggable it will be dealt with by Crimewatch, not Concord.

If such a thing ever came to pass much hilarity would ensue when the Jita 4-4 undock and the like is blockaded by people looking to kill stuff without Concord punishing them for it; because they will make sure that everything that undocks will get flagged as a suspect when it bumps another ship. You're placing entirely too much confidence in the ability of a set game mechanic to discern between accidental and deliberate bumping and not enough in the ability of players to figure out how to get other people to flag themselves unintentionally.


Reading and comprehension does matter you know, but lets lay it out so you get it, I thought it was obvious.

I was at one point a VB.Net and SQL programmer, lol

Step one, BS bumping a freighter, AI checks who is bumping who, analyses sees that the BS is bumping the freighter, also it would be possible to apply this 20 km away from the undock, counts number of bumps and speed of BS, makes assessment within certain criteria and makes decision, BS goes suspect. I could code that in my sleep...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#311 - 2015-10-17 12:26:47 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
So as hyperdunking enabled solo ganking of freighters then you don't have an issue with the change then?

That story works as I intended it too, to show how it affects casual players and their attitude to the game, you may reject it that's your call, but CCP cannot afford to reject that, personally I think they are acting too late and screwed up as soon as they allowed hyperdunking to be applied to ships, a truly stupid call CCP Falcon...

As for me I have proved to myself that I can make lots of ISK and kill stuff in a game that is hard, I find the puerile behaviour of much of the Eve player base irritating, the PvE is boring and even the combat is boring, piloting skill does matter a bit, but not much, its mainly getting the drop on people, which is more fun when you are outnumbered as I normally am. I had some fun with the drifters, as that was a challenge, being in a fleet that killed drifters for no loss was fun and engaging, much more fun then trying to get around all the advantages that CODE have.

In any case if the game is simply bigger numbers win then whats the fun and why bother, over to you Sherlock...
We've already been over the whole solo thing Drac. Solo doesn't necessarily mean without support, as you know. So I'm OK with hyperdunking, because solo in this instance includes self help and it can be avoided solo, with self help.

In other words, solo and single account, can mean different things. No matter how much you try to move those goal posts.

The story. Yes exactly. It showed how someone's attitude to the game, suddenly became everyone else's fault. It shows how even though it's been shown time and again that help helps, there are still pilots out there running alone without support. But instead of understanding that friends or self help in this MMO is preferred, look to change the mechanics. Why? Well because other who have friends and self help can beat them, so the game's broken apparently.

In other words, you and they blame the game and it's mechanics and ignore the obvious. Friends.

I have had fun outnumbered. I've had fun when I decided not to jump out a dread, even though I could. But what you and I enjoy, is irrelevant to what others enjoy. Again, this isn't the fault of the game, just different styles of play.

But in the case of freighter ganking, it's not simply numbers that win. One friend can remove you from the risk of being ganked in a freighter. That's one friend. So much so, it's almost guaranteed to work. Should it always work? Well no and if someone dies even with help, that's good.

In other words when they use a friend and it can make such a difference, why is the game at fault when they don't? I'm not even sure Sherlock can answer that one.


Depends if Sherlock listens...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#312 - 2015-10-17 12:29:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Dracvlad wrote:
Reading and comprehension does matter you know, but lets lay it out so you get it, I thought it was obvious.
Evidentially not in your case, the basic premise has been shot down more times than you've had hot dinners.

Quote:
I was at one point a VB.Net and SQL programmer, lol
And? I used to service IFF and avionics systems on military aircraft, it doesn't mean I know how to pilot one.

Quote:
Step one, BS bumping a freighter, AI checks who is bumping who, analyses sees that the BS is bumping the freighter, also it would be possible to apply this 20 km away from the undock, counts number of bumps and speed of BS, makes assessment within certain criteria and makes decision, BS goes suspect. I could code that in my sleep...
Go for it, and then submit it to CCP. Put your money where your mouth is.

I can flat out guarantee that people will figure out how to use it to their own advantage in a matter of days.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#313 - 2015-10-17 12:36:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Reading and comprehension does matter you know, but lets lay it out so you get it, I thought it was obvious.

I was at one point a VB.Net and SQL programmer, lol
And?

Quote:
Step one, BS bumping a freighter, AI checks who is bumping who, analyses sees that the BS is bumping the freighter, also it would be possible to apply this 20 km away from the undock, counts number of bumps and speed of BS, makes assessment within certain criteria and makes decision, BS goes suspect. I could code that in my sleep...
Go for it, and then submit it to CCP. Put your money where your mouth is.


I am not a C # programmer, and in any case one would need to know the system of the Ai that CCP have developed fully, I read their overview of it and it looked impressive, I think it could handle this easily.

Quote:
I can flat out guarantee that people will figure out how to use it to their own advantage in a matter of days.


I would like to see them try if it only applies to a BS when a BS is bumping freighters... 20 km away from a station undock too.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#314 - 2015-10-17 12:38:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Dracvlad wrote:
I am not a C # programmer, and in any case one would need to know the system of the Ai that CCP have developed fully, I read their overview of it and it looked impressive, I think it could handle this easily.
So you couldn't do it in your sleep after all?

BTW Eve is written in Python*, not C#. You could at least do some research before spouting off about something you're clearly ignorant of.

Edit Upon further investigation, the relevant part (AI/game logic) is written in Python, Eve also uses other languages, none of which are C#

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#315 - 2015-10-17 12:40:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I am not a C # programmer, and in any case one would need to know the system of the Ai that CCP have developed fully, I read their overview of it and it looked impressive, I think it could handle this easily.
Eve is Python, not C#. You could at least do some research before spouting off about something you're clearly ignorant of.


The new Ai is written in C# for gods sake!

Hisa Kite you anti-semite scum, you are already blocked.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#316 - 2015-10-17 12:43:00 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I can flat out guarantee that people will figure out how to use it to their own advantage in a matter of hours.

Fix'd

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#317 - 2015-10-17 12:44:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Dracvlad wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I am not a C # programmer, and in any case one would need to know the system of the Ai that CCP have developed fully, I read their overview of it and it looked impressive, I think it could handle this easily.
Eve is Python, not C#. You could at least do some research before spouting off about something you're clearly ignorant of.


The new Ai is written in C# for gods sake!
Is it? Admittedly the quote is from 3 years ago, but:

CCP Explorer wrote:

EVE Online is programmed in three languages.

The rendering engine, audio engine, browser, network layer, disk IO, database access, physics simulation and localisation engine are written in C++. Essentially all performance-critical components and access.

All database code is written in T-SQL, Microsoft's extension to SQL, since we use Microsoft SQL Server.

Everything else, in particular all game logic, is written in Stackless Python.
I would assume, I may be wrong as I'm no programmer, that the AI comes under the heading of game logic, which is written in Python.

Nowhere does CCP Explorer mention C#.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#318 - 2015-10-17 12:44:26 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
in any case one would need to know the system of the Ai that CCP have developed fully, I read their overview of it and it looked impressive, I think it could handle this easily.

Modular design is your answer.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#319 - 2015-10-17 12:46:47 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I am not a C # programmer, and in any case one would need to know the system of the Ai that CCP have developed fully, I read their overview of it and it looked impressive, I think it could handle this easily.
Eve is Python, not C#. You could at least do some research before spouting off about something you're clearly ignorant of.


The new Ai is written in C# for gods sake!
Is it?

CCP Explorer wrote:

EVE Online is programmed in three languages.

The rendering engine, audio engine, browser, network layer, disk IO, database access, physics simulation and localisation engine are written in C++. Essentially all performance-critical components and access.

All database code is written in T-SQL, Microsoft's extension to SQL, since we use Microsoft SQL Server.

Everything else, in particular all game logic, is written in Stackless Python.
I would assume, I may be wrong as I'm no programmer, that the AI comes under the heading of game logic, which is written in Python.


C++ I always get that mixed up with C# but anyway the logic is written in Python so yes it is Python then, so to reply correctly I am not a stackless Python programmer.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#320 - 2015-10-17 12:47:53 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
C++ I always get that mixed up with C# but anyway the logic is written in Python so yes it is Python then, so to reply correctly I am not a stackless Python programmer.
Do you still maintain that you could do it in your sleep?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack