These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

reform margin trading system and min volume

Author
Korean Ninja
Im Watching You
#1 - 2015-10-14 06:03:07 UTC
margin trading and min volume collaboration are so amazing.

various market noob didnt notice margin trading trick and feed billion isk to scammer


i suggest reform margin trading system and min volume

1. temporary banish EPIC FAIL BUY ORDER when buyer's wallet dont have enough ISK to fullfill buy order
2. remove min volum or different market color+special massage on '>1 min volume order' to easy notice


anyway, margin trading scam need to be nurf
Zerinia
Lom Corporation
#2 - 2015-10-14 06:11:38 UTC
Korean Ninja wrote:
margin trading and min volume collaboration are so amazing.

various market noob didnt notice margin trading trick and feed billion isk to scammer


i suggest reform margin trading system and min volume

1. temporary banish EPIC FAIL BUY ORDER when buyer's wallet dont have enough ISK to fullfill buy order
2. remove min volum or different market color+special massage on '>1 min volume order' to easy notice


anyway, margin trading scam need to be nurf

So you got ripped off. Doesn't mean anything needs to be nerfed.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3 - 2015-10-14 06:28:04 UTC
There is not a good solution to margin trading scams that dont also ruin the skill for honest traders
Black Pedro
Mine.
#4 - 2015-10-14 07:34:54 UTC
Korean Ninja wrote:
margin trading and min volume collaboration are so amazing.

various market noob didnt notice margin trading trick and feed billion isk to scammer


i suggest reform margin trading system and min volume

1. temporary banish EPIC FAIL BUY ORDER when buyer's wallet dont have enough ISK to fullfill buy order
2. remove min volum or different market color+special massage on '>1 min volume order' to easy notice


anyway, margin trading scam need to be nurf


Your 1. would be fine but it has been suggested (I can't remember exactly where) that it would be far too resource intensive to implement. Having to query the database every time a wallet balance changes is non-trivial action but if CCP can implement it efficiently, then I see no issue. It would even help legitimate traders who can lose their fees if they run of ISK in their wallet.

Your 2. would also be ok, but probably wouldn't do anything. The information is already there, and if someone does not understand the risk, whether the quantity is in white font or flashing red font isn't going to make a difference. And I don't think we need yet another warning box (which will just be ignored) to bubble-wrap players, something which would also give a false sense of security as there are other related scams that do not rely on margin trading.

The reality is that the margin trading scam does nothing that cannot be done in other ways. It is just a way to put out a false price signal to trick greedy, new, and/or naive traders into buying something at an inflated price. The market in Eve Online is pure PvP and that means there are always going to be winners, losers, and ways to trick or force others into making poor trading decisions. No buy order shown in your client is guaranteed and they can be cancelled at anytime. This means you should be very clear on the value of items you are buying specifically to sell to a single buy order because it may not be there when you finally get the goods to the station. Even if legitimate, someone could just beat you to it.

Just because you (or your "friend") lost playing the market doesn't mean it needs a "nurf". You just lost this round - learn from it and carry on.



Mag's
Azn Empire
#5 - 2015-10-14 07:51:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Korean Ninja wrote:
margin trading and min volume collaboration are so amazing.

various market noob didnt notice margin trading trick and feed billion isk to scammer


i suggest reform margin trading system and min volume

1. temporary banish EPIC FAIL BUY ORDER when buyer's wallet dont have enough ISK to fullfill buy order
2. remove min volum or different market color+special massage on '>1 min volume order' to easy notice


anyway, margin trading scam need to be nurf
Wait let me get this right. You're suggesting that because some greedy uninformed players decided to invest in an item, without first gathering the information on it's true price first. That CCP should now change the system, so that these ill informed players can continue not checking for the true value of items and try to buy them anyway? Lol

There is one and I mean ONE suggestion, I would make in this regards and it simply this.

As it seems many players do not understand that any order isn't guaranteed, then I would advocate a warning when entering the market place. This warning can be removed to not be shown again, but it will state the following.

No order in the market place, is guaranteed.

But these noobs as you put it, don't seem inclined to take in any information before buying stuff, so they will ignore it and continue to be greedy.

Edit: Reported for redundancy.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Sitting Bull Lakota
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#6 - 2015-10-14 08:52:25 UTC
I set minimum quantity in my market tab as the first column. The minimum quantity is always the first thing I see.
Personally, I don't like how scam buy orders just disappear when someone tries to fill them. I think that the order should partially complete based on the buyer's escrow and fail when the escrow is no longer sufficient to purchase any more of the item.
Iain Cariaba
#7 - 2015-10-14 09:27:42 UTC
Korean Ninja wrote:
margin trading and min volume collaboration are so amazing.

various market noob didnt notice margin trading trick and feed billion isk to scammer


i suggest reform margin trading system and min volume

1. temporary banish EPIC FAIL BUY ORDER when buyer's wallet dont have enough ISK to fullfill buy order
2. remove min volum or different market color+special massage on '>1 min volume order' to easy notice


anyway, margin trading scam need to be nurf

A better solution.

All you need is in that link.
Nyalnara
Dark Evil Undead Ponies Productions
#8 - 2015-10-14 11:47:20 UTC
Korean Ninja wrote:
margin trading and min volume collaboration are so amazing.

various market noob didnt notice margin trading trick and feed billion isk to scammer


i suggest reform margin trading system and min volume

1. temporary banish EPIC FAIL BUY ORDER when buyer's wallet dont have enough ISK to fullfill buy order
2. remove min volum or different market color+special massage on '>1 min volume order' to easy notice


anyway, margin trading scam need to be nurf


As a legit trader, i cannot have enough isk to fulfill all my buy orders. For especially big ones, i happen to not have enough most of the time. Because other buy orders were fulfilled, and sell orders were not. Why can i do that? Because the margin trading skill allow me to do so. Without that skill, i would be able to keep on doing that, but i'd need way much more non-theoretical ISKs to do so. Which would effectively limit my ability to generate more ISKs.

The only reason why the market is so lively, is the direct consequence of the margin trading skill being used by all the legit traders. Without it, 80% of everything invested would not have happened, roughly halving the quantity of available items on the market. And that's for the main hubs. Lots of secondary hubs would just die a slow and painful death, or would just provide the very basics of the kind of stuff used by the locals.

Do you really want to kill the economy and the game it supports, just because you were stupid enough to fail for an obvious scam? Don't bother answering that, we all know you do, and that's the reason why no one will bother listening to you.

French half-noob.

Non, je ne suis pas gentil.

Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#9 - 2015-10-14 13:19:14 UTC
Korean Ninja wrote:
margin trading and min volume collaboration are so amazing.

various market noob didnt notice margin trading trick and feed billion isk to scammer


i suggest reform margin trading system and min volume

1. temporary banish EPIC FAIL BUY ORDER when buyer's wallet dont have enough ISK to fullfill buy order
2. remove min volum or different market color+special massage on '>1 min volume order' to easy notice


anyway, margin trading scam need to be nurf


So....you actually took local in a trade hub seriously?
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2015-10-14 14:04:32 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
There is not a good solution to margin trading scams that dont also ruin the skill for honest traders


Make margin trading allow an overdraw on your wallet instead of an under-fund and it would still work. You just ban whoever abuse it for other stuff than legitimate trading. It's not like it's hard to spot character being biomassed with a negative wallet...

Then, traders can still trade just like IRL where they go over and under black all the time but the broker actually works like a broker would by serving as a 3rd party for transactions. The broker taxes are supposed to be for this no?
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#11 - 2015-10-15 15:03:05 UTC
the problem with this scam is that CCP is complicit in it... the UI is actively lying to me which is FUNDEMENTALLY what makes it different from scams involving "adding or removing some zeroes" and **** of that ilk...

this isnt JUST me being dumb (and i have never YET been scammed) its me not being able to get all the information i need because the UI is actively obfuscating the information i need in order to make a sensible decision ...
Nyalnara
Dark Evil Undead Ponies Productions
#12 - 2015-10-15 15:36:08 UTC
FireFrenzy wrote:
the problem with this scam is that CCP is complicit in it... the UI is actively lying to me which is FUNDEMENTALLY what makes it different from scams involving "adding or removing some zeroes" and **** of that ilk...

this isnt JUST me being dumb (and i have never YET been scammed) its me not being able to get all the information i need because the UI is actively obfuscating the information i need in order to make a sensible decision ...


Nope. The UI isn't lying to you, as it only shows you what's relevant to you. And the fact that someone setting up a buy order does not have enough ISK to fulfill it is not relevant.

The real problem is in the fact that most players have absolutely zero notion about the eve market internal working. And including that in the NPE would be ignored anyway, because "wall of text", or "annoying popup", maybe even "don't care, just want to buy things".

(Also, the fact that min-quantity colum is so far right that it is not shown with the default window setup. But even if it was put to the very left, people would still fall for it because lack of knowledge.)

French half-noob.

Non, je ne suis pas gentil.

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2015-10-15 16:58:38 UTC
Nyalnara wrote:
FireFrenzy wrote:
the problem with this scam is that CCP is complicit in it... the UI is actively lying to me which is FUNDEMENTALLY what makes it different from scams involving "adding or removing some zeroes" and **** of that ilk...

this isnt JUST me being dumb (and i have never YET been scammed) its me not being able to get all the information i need because the UI is actively obfuscating the information i need in order to make a sensible decision ...


Nope. The UI isn't lying to you, as it only shows you what's relevant to you. And the fact that someone setting up a buy order does not have enough ISK to fulfill it is not relevant.

The real problem is in the fact that most players have absolutely zero notion about the eve market internal working. And including that in the NPE would be ignored anyway, because "wall of text", or "annoying popup", maybe even "don't care, just want to buy things".

(Also, the fact that min-quantity colum is so far right that it is not shown with the default window setup. But even if it was put to the very left, people would still fall for it because lack of knowledge.)


Yes it is lying. It's telling me a buying will take X unit of item Y for price Z. If I cannot even fulfill that order for X unit, it should just not show since it's not a valid option just like the game won't let you make sell order for more units of an item you don't own even if before it completely filled you might get your hand on this item in larger quantity. I wont mind if I ever get screwed by the min quantity trick since that would be on my own damn fault for not looking up the info available but the order auto failing when I provide the right items in the right quantity is just stupid.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-10-15 17:26:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
There is not a good solution to margin trading scams that dont also ruin the skill for honest traders

Actually there are two I can think of:
1.) have a warning on buy orders that tells player the buyer isn't necessarily able to complete the order
2.) conceal buy orders of which the buyer cannot fulfill the minimum purchase amount

Neither would have any negative impact on honest margin traders but the second would have a positive impact. The first is more EVE-themed and the second is more sociable. Either one works to break the illegitimacy of the margin trading scam.

Both strategies have been talked about on the forums. CCP is aware of both and has commented on both strategies at some point. They seem unwilling to make a move just yet, but are considering making a change to margin trading.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#15 - 2015-10-15 17:35:30 UTC
I don't usually weigh in on market stuff, but here goes:

Just delete margin trading from the game.

Pros:
1 less reason to be in station where you can't be involved in ship explosions.
Maket tycoons will get tired of doing market tycoon stuff and undock and help with ship explosions.
puppies
less non pvp stuff the servers have to waste time on

Cons: none


Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#16 - 2015-10-15 17:37:10 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
There is not a good solution to margin trading scams that dont also ruin the skill for honest traders

Actually there are two I can think of:
1.) have a warning on buy orders that tells player the buyer isn't necessarily able to complete the order
2.) conceal buy orders of which the buyer cannot fulfill the minimum purchase amount

Neither would have any negative impact on honest margin traders but the second would have a positive impact. The first is more EVE-themed and the second is more sociable. Either one works to break the illegitimacy of the margin trading scam.

Both strategies have been talked about on the forums. CCP is aware of both and has commented on both strategies at some point. They seem unwilling to make a move just yet, but are considering making a change to margin trading.


1 would be ignored after the first few trades since its so rare to be scammed this way
2 would have to check your market orders every time you wallet loose isk then check that info for every buy order you have and tell whatever node that market is on to conceal the order or not. Multiply that with the number of buy orders where buyer have trained margin trading and its alot more work for the servers
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#17 - 2015-10-15 17:41:05 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I don't usually weigh in on market stuff, but here goes:

Just delete margin trading from the game.

Pros:
1 less reason to be in station where you can't be involved in ship explosions.
Maket tycoons will get tired of doing market tycoon stuff and undock and help with ship explosions.
puppies
less non pvp stuff the servers have to waste time on

Cons: none


Just like jump fatique made people flock to mining...

If CCP ruin the part of the game that you enjoy you quit, there is no reason to start doing other stuff you have already decided you dont like doing
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#18 - 2015-10-15 18:09:03 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I don't usually weigh in on market stuff, but here goes:

Just delete margin trading from the game.

Pros:
1 less reason to be in station where you can't be involved in ship explosions.
Maket tycoons will get tired of doing market tycoon stuff and undock and help with ship explosions.
puppies
less non pvp stuff the servers have to waste time on

Cons: none


Just like jump fatique made people flock to mining...

If CCP ruin the part of the game that you enjoy you quit, there is no reason to start doing other stuff you have already decided you dont like doing



Sweetie - If I can get over what Fozzie did to the geddon, then traders can do without margin stuff.

"Inside every margin trader there is a fierce warrior waiting to take wing" - Mags Tse-Tung
Nyalnara
Dark Evil Undead Ponies Productions
#19 - 2015-10-15 19:08:11 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Sweetie - If I can get over what Fozzie did to the geddon, then traders can do without margin stuff.


Well, nope. I would not be able to keep the ISK flowing that much if over-investing was not possible. I'd rather go back to incursions, especially since drifter ones are being reintroduced.

French half-noob.

Non, je ne suis pas gentil.