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Rethinking the AF: hit hard, hit fast, don't burn out your prop mod

Author
Silat Raitakori
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-10-03 02:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Silat Raitakori
Everybody knows that the AF has been made basically obsolete by the T3D. Instead of nerfing the T3D just to make the AF relevant again, what if we rethought the AF?

Quote:
I've always thought of assault frigates as specializing in heavy tackle. They're tanky, somewhat quick, and have small sigs. Once they sink their teeth into you, you're in trouble. They have a good amount of DPS, but aren't a cruiser.


Numbers subject to revision.

Role bonus:
30% increase in heat damage to overheated mod
60% reduction in heat damage to non-overheated mods
50% reduction in MWD sig bloom
Immune to energy neutralizers and vampires? (maybe)


Bonus per Assault Frig level:

30% increase in overheating bonuses
4% decrease in stasis webifier effect upon ship

So what do we have here? It's definitely a brawly ship, with the neut immunity (maybe) and webifier mitigation. But the main element of the AF's new role is as a very thermo-dependent combat frig. All accounts now start with thermo I, so why not put so much emphasis on overheating modules?

With an overheated MWD, it'd be able to get into tackle range quickly, but couldn't keep that speed forever, as MWDs burn out easily. Once in range, it'd keep you in tackle easily with overheated webs and scrams--if my napkin calculations are right, with AF V, you'd get 17.5km range on just a meta 1 web and 13.5km range on a T2 scram. That overheat bonus more than doubles your DPS as long as you can keep your guns overheated, so you're going to hit really damn hard.

However, because of the overheating issues, it requires a lot of skill to fly well. both in SP and pilot competency, as it's easier to burn your mods out. You'll have to work harder than just overheating your mid rack if you want to finish your fight, but if flown right, we're looking at a damn powerful ship. It's not built for extended engagements, but as a solo brawler that's trying to hit hard and hit fast, it excels. I wouldn't be surprised if it'd be a good cruiser killer, as long as it can kill it's target quickly. It goes without saying that it'd be death to kiting frigs. I doubt it'd do well against multiple targets, but it'd probably be able to give a single T3D a run for its money.

Note: It'd probably need a slot remix, so low-heavy, mid-light races like Amarr don't get left behind.

Thoughts?
Iain Cariaba
#2 - 2015-10-03 02:25:28 UTC
Just going to drop this here.

Might want to see what comes of that first.
Silat Raitakori
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2015-10-03 02:40:14 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Just going to drop this here.

Might want to see what comes of that first.


True, but the role of the AF is already nebulous at best, and basically plays the same role as the T3D, which is... be a good ship? This gives it a more focused direction, which is in line with other T2 ships. Also, it was developed out of a challenge to see if it's possible to give the AF a purpose *without* changing T3Ds.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#4 - 2015-10-03 03:36:44 UTC
Silat Raitakori wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Just going to drop this here.

Might want to see what comes of that first.


True, but the role of the AF is already nebulous at best, and basically plays the same role as the T3D, which is... be a good ship? This gives it a more focused direction, which is in line with other T2 ships. Also, it was developed out of a challenge to see if it's possible to give the AF a purpose *without* changing T3Ds.



but depending on what if anything they do with the T3D it may open a niche for the af to be balanced into i think waiting may be the better option in this case
Ix Method
Doomheim
#5 - 2015-10-03 08:50:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ix Method
Really agree with the broad concept, frigates are first and foremost paper-thin so a T2 focus of defence makes perfect sense.

Still rather than giving them half a dozen various bonuses you could do much the same by ensuring they all have a utility high with enough fitting for a Nos (or even two for Nos/Neut), the ability to fit both a web and a scram, the pace/low sig to hold tackle on pretty much anything and a genuinely solid tank.

Honestly they don't need better DPS than T1 frigs, that is always going to lack vs T3Ds, etc. and takes focus away from where it's actually useful. AFs can only be so powerful, wasting part of that power on extra DPS makes little sense.

Travelling at the speed of love.

Thron Legacy
White Zulu
Scorpion Federation
#6 - 2015-10-03 08:51:19 UTC
just make them immune to getting their mwd shut off by scrams
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
Parasitic Legion.
#7 - 2015-10-03 10:34:05 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Just going to drop this here.

Might want to see what comes of that first.

Having another balance pass of the T3D is not going to fix some of the short comings of AF, they need to have another balance pass done to them in order to shine again.

I think they should have a closer resemblance to their HAC brothers, just smaller.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#8 - 2015-10-03 15:17:51 UTC
With the talk from CCP about T2 destroyers perhaps this topic is a little premature because those ships and whatever their abilities are when they get into the game will need to be accounted for as well.

Personally CCP has put themselves in a really bad spot ships wise. With the capabilities of the Faction frigates, the T3 Destroyers and the new T2 destroyers they are talking about they have left themselves very little space in which to find a "unique" role for the assault frigates.
Akballah Kassan
Flames Of Chaos
Unspoken Alliance.
#9 - 2015-10-03 18:23:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Akballah Kassan
I would make Assault Frigates warp at the same speed as Interceptors so they can be the backbone of a speedy response fleet when defending Nodes in Sov warfare.
Silat Raitakori
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2015-10-03 19:05:29 UTC
Akballah Kassan wrote:
I would make Assault Frigates warp at the same speed as Interceptors so they can be the backbone of a speedy response fleet when defending Nodes in Sov warfare.


Probably a more solid thought than mine.
Zimmer Jones
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2015-10-03 22:25:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmer Jones
I'd take inspiration from the attack bc's, that is give them cruiser class weapons with damage bonuses to make it into a very mean light brawler.
Again with the attack bc theme, give them less raw hp, but keep the assault aspect with much better resists.
Add in the overheat bonus(resist and rep only), and something racially appropriate, you've got a fun small dps machine with a side of micromanagement.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#12 - 2015-10-03 22:29:31 UTC
the overheat bonus is already taken by the T3 line, AF's were mostly fine until D3's which means their role was fine they just made D3's too good at their role which is tanky small tackle ships.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#13 - 2015-10-04 01:01:15 UTC
Zimmer Jones wrote:
I'd take inspiration from the attack bc's, that is give them cruiser class weapons with damage bonuses to make it into a very mean light brawler.
Again with the attack bc theme, give them less raw hp, but keep the assault aspect with much better resists.
Add in the overheat bonus(resist and rep only), and something racially appropriate, you've got a fun small dps machine with a side of micromanagement.

Not arguing you thoughts just curious here.
How would you propose they handle the Ishkur if all of the others got up-sized guns?
Rovinia
Exotic Dancers Union
SONS of BANE
#14 - 2015-10-04 01:12:25 UTC
Thron Legacy wrote:
just make them immune to getting their mwd shut off by scrams


I like this idea. Simple and would add the lacking "assault" to the frigate....
Silat Raitakori
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2015-10-04 01:47:13 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Zimmer Jones wrote:
I'd take inspiration from the attack bc's, that is give them cruiser class weapons with damage bonuses to make it into a very mean light brawler.
Again with the attack bc theme, give them less raw hp, but keep the assault aspect with much better resists.
Add in the overheat bonus(resist and rep only), and something racially appropriate, you've got a fun small dps machine with a side of micromanagement.

Not arguing you thoughts just curious here.
How would you propose they handle the Ishkur if all of the others got up-sized guns?


One could argue it's already there.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#16 - 2015-10-04 02:14:21 UTC
Assault frigates are perfectly fine, it's the t3d that require attention as the entire frigate and destroyer line was thrown out the window when CCP added these far too overpowered ships.
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#17 - 2015-10-04 02:33:42 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
the overheat bonus is already taken by the T3 line, AF's were mostly fine until D3's which means their role was fine they just made D3's too good at their role which is tanky small tackle ships.


This is false. AF's were not fine pre T3d's...the introduction of T3d's just made them worse.
Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#18 - 2015-10-04 02:35:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Assault frigates are perfectly fine, it's the t3d that require attention as the entire frigate and destroyer line was thrown out the window when CCP added these far too overpowered ships.


The Svipul is OP, the confessor is borderline. AF's aren't fine and weren't fine before the T3d's.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#19 - 2015-10-04 02:51:16 UTC
Leonardo Adami wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Assault frigates are perfectly fine, it's the t3d that require attention as the entire frigate and destroyer line was thrown out the window when CCP added these far too overpowered ships.


The Svipul is OP, the confessor is borderline. AF's aren't fine and weren't fine before the T3d's.


They were perfectly fine, the entire frigate line was is nice shape before CCP went and made the same mistake they made with t3 cruisers.
Zimmer Jones
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2015-10-04 06:01:10 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:

Not arguing you thoughts just curious here.
How would you propose they handle the Ishkur if all of the others got up-sized guns?

Well, after drinking hard about this I'd drop the ishkur's drone bandwidth to 15, and lock the drone bay size at 45. Stealing a fun concept from the gila, give it a decent light drone damage multiplier to match the enyo's dps, perhaps even dropping a turret(and having 2 utility highs) and boosting the drone damage even more to emphasize the focus on drones.

I know, I know, my idea is for bigger guns, well ishkur will still have them, but the focus on light drones is because med drones would steal the gila's thunder and are just plain too slow. Initially I thought about taking a page from the guardian vexor and have more drones but that would be giving it the ability to carry geckos, and thats a no-go.

That, and I just really like light drones.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.

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