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Revisiting the NPE
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2015-09-28 14:25:46 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:


Just because it was even worse in the past doesn't mean where it is now is good. Making new players rely on friends and youtube videos to understand the game is kind of lazy on the developers part isn't it?


Well, that is what makes eve so difficult. It is impossible to teach somebody everything. That is why I like the NPE so much. It gives core things but expects the player to adapt and problem solve as well. Eve is just to complex for a full on lead by the hand. The tutorial does a very good job of the basics.

Here is how to move
Here is how to lock
Here is how to shoot
Here is some basic modules

Now spend some time and look around, get adjusted.

The only thing I found it lacks is an explanation of environment. Eve shock comes from the environment more than the play. The help stuff used to be pretty good... that is gone now though isn't it... replaced by the less useful opportunities? At some point, a player will need to get info. The more complex and versatile points of fitting ideology, different ways to fight, etc. If they put that stuff into a tutorial, we now have limited NP potential and reduced player interaction.

I am also going from my NPE. I had no friends starting out... Well, one guy I knew played, but long story short, I figured eve out on my own. I learned ship control, and then i spent time going through markets, and the RHC, first thing I learned was to interact with the other players, both the good ways and the bad. More importantly, I had a very complete understanding of modules and fittings within a week of play and experimentation. Knowledge I would not have gotten if it was a connect the dot, on rails experience.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#22 - 2015-09-28 15:00:34 UTC
The problem I see is if the tutorial is too linear than nubs will get a wrong idea of the game, and once they get dumped on their own they're like

"Okay, what the hell, I completed my first quest, where's the next one?"

Whereas, ideally, you'd want them to think

"Okay, well now those stupid tutorials are done, guess I should go find something to do... What's this gurista's den?"
Nub warps there. 10 seconds later shields start disappearing, hull alerts sound, and then *pop*
"Well ****"

But you don't want

"Okay, how the hell do I warp to this gurista's den thing?"


I think CCP is going in the right overall direction, by improving separate tutorials while making sure they remain separate and relatively non-linear. Remember, they aren't trying to catch the WoW players who want to be taught how to play and then go do quests. They're trying to catch players who connect dots, make their own goals, and generally "fit" into Eve. The problem is doing that without making them too confused. That part could use work, but I think they chose the right direction to go overall.

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#23 - 2015-09-28 15:45:17 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:

"Okay, what the hell, I completed my first quest, where's the next one?"


When I am helping rookies out, I hear this all too often.

I have an oracle fitted with dual heavy pulse lasers all fit up for rate of fire and loaded with low damage infrared crystals. Purpose being to have a "big" flashy ship that inspires as opposed to doing a task. So I sometimes hang out in starter systems and the epic quest locations waiting for the "I need help with Dagan".

Two constants almost every time.

  • Ship fitting issues/lack of understanding
  • "What do I do next?"


Two of the most important questions, and ones that to fully explain it takes a mentoring, and not just an easy follow tutorial. The tutorials really need to encourage asking for help. Is why I love the epic arc, probably the crown jewel for the NPE. Teaches hard fights, that there sometimes is somebody tougher than you, and that eve is best if you are with another person.

First time I did the epic arc, I decided to have fun and brought out my large rigged succubus. Alas, some web/scram drones on one mission saw to the end of that. My mediums just could not track em. Was a slow, and slightly rage death (because was large rigged) but for a new player, a valuable experience.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#24 - 2015-09-28 16:38:04 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:


Just because it was even worse in the past doesn't mean where it is now is good. Making new players rely on friends and youtube videos to understand the game is kind of lazy on the developers part isn't it?


Well, that is what makes eve so difficult. It is impossible to teach somebody everything. That is why I like the NPE so much. It gives core things but expects the player to adapt and problem solve as well. Eve is just to complex for a full on lead by the hand. The tutorial does a very good job of the basics.

Here is how to move
Here is how to lock
Here is how to shoot
Here is some basic modules

Now spend some time and look around, get adjusted.

The only thing I found it lacks is an explanation of environment. Eve shock comes from the environment more than the play. The help stuff used to be pretty good... that is gone now though isn't it... replaced by the less useful opportunities? At some point, a player will need to get info. The more complex and versatile points of fitting ideology, different ways to fight, etc. If they put that stuff into a tutorial, we now have limited NP potential and reduced player interaction.

I am also going from my NPE. I had no friends starting out... Well, one guy I knew played, but long story short, I figured eve out on my own. I learned ship control, and then i spent time going through markets, and the RHC, first thing I learned was to interact with the other players, both the good ways and the bad. More importantly, I had a very complete understanding of modules and fittings within a week of play and experimentation. Knowledge I would not have gotten if it was a connect the dot, on rails experience.


Yeah there is so much to learn in EvE that you can't really put it all in a tutorial, and it is vastly different from every other game that I have played. My problem with the NPE is that new players don't know what they don't know; and expecting them to just figure everything out from next to nothing cuts off all but the most eager. Core mechanics do really need to be delivered on rails so there is less room for a player to mess up, accidentally come out of the tutorial and become stuck.

The NPE really needs to start from the absolute basics of "here's what you're looking at on your screen, here's how to move, lock, shoot". From there the career agents are good enough to give people a taste of different activities they can try, and after that the epic arc gets them out playing with different fits and ships and interacting with other players.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-09-28 19:00:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
In the internet era you would expect new players to successfully use google, forums, and YouTube. I mean, I think, if you are not internet and computer affine, you may have a hard time in this game anyway. I remember that I got the basics from YouTube videos and the (german) pilot's handbook ...

I'm my own NPC alt.
JonnyPew
Doomheim
#26 - 2015-09-30 01:52:55 UTC
Excellent!

EVE Online video content creator

http://www.youtube.com/JonnyPew
Commander Spurty
#27 - 2015-09-30 16:27:46 UTC
Cites "JonnyPew" - Check
Good in-sight to NPE - Check

Op gets a like and I actually read your entire post.

+1 Space Internets for you

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-09-30 18:06:51 UTC
JonnyPew wrote:
Excellent!

The renegade is back? Blink Why not posting on your EvE main?

I'm my own NPC alt.
Cervix Thumper
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#29 - 2015-10-01 13:19:16 UTC
Otso Bakarti wrote:
All things such as this should be tailored to me, not you. Cool



+1 exactly. The game AI / NPE / trainer should be adaptable enough to give a new player score card. Say % based on the different tutorial missions. That way, the player can focus on what they do well at, and or, work to improve on the areas they scored lower on.

Perfectly tailored to "You".
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