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De-valuing Alpha by Countering Logistic Repair Stagnation
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Grorious Reader
Mongorian Horde
#21 - 2015-09-29 16:29:59 UTC
You could have remote rep and transfer modules reduce the ship's effective sensor strength, thus making them particularly more vulnerable to ECM. Or you could increase the cap drain of such modules and reduce the bonuses some ships get to cap transfer, making them more easily countered by neuts.

To more directly address alpha-centric strategy, you could have logi repair at a slower rate but increase damage resistance on the target ship. This could allow for 1 or 2 logi ships to be just as effective overall as they currently are, but since damage resistances have stacking penalties, the total benefits of logi would decrease with greater numbers.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-09-29 17:46:19 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
The issue is most people want to be "1337 DPS" and top killmail number more than they want their fleet to succede. You never have any issue getting 1 more DPS for your fleet but 1 falcon? 1 Huggin? You'll be looking for those even if they are technically more power added to a fleet than another token DPS. People don't seem to get that so we get small roaming gang without offensive support having trouble defeating a similar force with defensive support.

PvE can easyly be re-tuned if it's seen as necessary after any change to logistics happen. The content is balanced around some numbers and fleet have adapted to it. Logi aren't "too powerful" for PvE, they are just used in a number to make it efficient.

You're absolutely right about people not being willing to fly what's best for the fleet, often people prefer pew pew over a ship that's simply better in many ways even just for the individual in the fleet. But that indicates a flaw in the way optimum fleet layout is balanced versus what players want to fly. There are a handful of players who actually like flying logi or EWAR, and crowds who like to fly guns or missiles. We should be pushing the ideal fleet balance to reflect what people want to fly--make a few EWAR or logi useful, but have their usefulness scale downward with greater numbers. This will also help squash infinite sustainment in fleets, and make it so both sides take damage in a real fight, even if one side is a lot bigger. If you want to not lose any ships, you should:
A.) be out of their shooting range
B.) have more hit points than they can take out before they die, or
C.) not give them a chance to track you
Facebrawling with logi shouldn't be a way to avoid taking fleet losses. Logi should have either a weaker role during a fight or a role less sustainable, while they also assist in getting the fleet ready again between fights.

It is hard to suggest that logi are not overpowered when they rep EHP multiple times as fast as a DPS ship takes them down.



Grorious Reader wrote:
You could have remote rep and transfer modules reduce the ship's effective sensor strength, thus making them particularly more vulnerable to ECM. Or you could increase the cap drain of such modules and reduce the bonuses some ships get to cap transfer, making them more easily countered by neuts.

To more directly address alpha-centric strategy, you could have logi repair at a slower rate but increase damage resistance on the target ship. This could allow for 1 or 2 logi ships to be just as effective overall as they currently are, but since damage resistances have stacking penalties, the total benefits of logi would decrease with greater numbers.

I'd like to see logi come in two flavors: remote repair and remote resistance boosting. They could be weak individually, but would compound well together. All in all, the net EHP regen should be balanced to be lower than before, since the total EHP of the target is going up. This will make logi less sustainable in small to medium gangs and less useless in alpha fleets.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#23 - 2015-09-29 17:56:41 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Saisin wrote:
I would favor putting the same stacking penalties on non DPS effects fleet ewar/remote rep that modules have, as it is an already well understood principle on ship fitting. Applying more than 4 remote rep on any one ship would become useless after the fourth...



Cool as long as you apply the same stacking penalty to weapon systems too. If everything is supposed to suffer stacking penalty, then everything should.


DPS modules on ships do not have stacking penalties.
The line of suggestion I support on this is to use a system for fleet effect control that players are already familiar with modules and has been a big part of Eve game design since the start. DPS have never been capped on ship modules.

Now the damage mitigation would cap damage on the largest end game structures. This new concept prevents the N+1 domination that can only be countered by more alts/players, foprcing the larger forces to split across multiple objectives to remain efficient.

The current power of the Imperium is their numbers and having used all the technics the game offers to reduce the size of other groups, from sowing dissenssions through anonymous alts, leveraging the CSM to limit the effectiveness of new features that would threaten their ISK making, and developing a propaganda and media machine to keep their numbers growing. They certainly succeeded, like the roman empire did through conquest, organisation and assimilation.

The game must provide mechanics to allow smaller groups to effectively challenge their domination, and this can only occur if the game system stops making N+1 the ultimate response to every major battles.




Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2015-09-29 18:00:20 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
The issue is most people want to be "1337 DPS" and top killmail number more than they want their fleet to succede. You never have any issue getting 1 more DPS for your fleet but 1 falcon? 1 Huggin? You'll be looking for those even if they are technically more power added to a fleet than another token DPS. People don't seem to get that so we get small roaming gang without offensive support having trouble defeating a similar force with defensive support.

PvE can easyly be re-tuned if it's seen as necessary after any change to logistics happen. The content is balanced around some numbers and fleet have adapted to it. Logi aren't "too powerful" for PvE, they are just used in a number to make it efficient.

You're absolutely right about people not being willing to fly what's best for the fleet, often people prefer pew pew over a ship that's simply better in many ways even just for the individual in the fleet. But that indicates a flaw in the way optimum fleet layout is balanced versus what players want to fly. There are a handful of players who actually like flying logi or EWAR, and crowds who like to fly guns or missiles. We should be pushing the ideal fleet balance to reflect what people want to fly--make a few EWAR or logi useful, but have their usefulness scale downward with greater numbers. This will also help squash infinite sustainment in fleets, and make it so both sides take damage in a real fight, even if one side is a lot bigger.



If you are not willing to field support ships, your whole fleet deserve to die drowned in it's own tears of agony as a few logi rep through your DPS.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2015-09-29 18:05:12 UTC
Saisin wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Saisin wrote:
I would favor putting the same stacking penalties on non DPS effects fleet ewar/remote rep that modules have, as it is an already well understood principle on ship fitting. Applying more than 4 remote rep on any one ship would become useless after the fourth...



Cool as long as you apply the same stacking penalty to weapon systems too. If everything is supposed to suffer stacking penalty, then everything should.


DPS modules on ships do not have stacking penalties.
The line of suggestion I support on this is to use a system for fleet effect control that players are already familiar with modules and has been a big part of Eve game design since the start. DPS have never been capped on ship modules.

Now the damage mitigation would cap damage on the largest end game structures. This new concept prevents the N+1 domination that can only be countered by more alts/players, foprcing the larger forces to split across multiple objectives to remain efficient.

The current power of the Imperium is their numbers and having used all the technics the game offers to reduce the size of other groups, from sowing dissenssions through anonymous alts, leveraging the CSM to limit the effectiveness of new features that would threaten their ISK making, and developing a propaganda and media machine to keep their numbers growing. They certainly succeeded, like the roman empire did through conquest, organisation and assimilation.

The game must provide mechanics to allow smaller groups to effectively challenge their domination, and this can only occur if the game system stops making N+1 the ultimate response to every major battles.






What is it gonna change for your small group if we blow up your structure in 20 minutes instead of 5?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2015-09-29 18:10:02 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If you are not willing to field support ships, your whole fleet deserve to die
There's no reason to hate people for enjoying what they enjoy, and there's no reason to purposely balance the game against the fun of the players.
Frostys Virpio wrote:
drowned in it's own tears of agony as a few logi rep through your DPS.
blatantly overpowered logi

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2015-09-29 18:18:18 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If you are not willing to field support ships, your whole fleet deserve to die
There's no reason to hate people for enjoying what they enjoy, and there's no reason to purposely balance the game against the fun of the players.
Frostys Virpio wrote:
drowned in it's own tears of agony as a few logi rep through your DPS.
blatantly overpowered logi


Oh no, the other side is using force multiplier and ship that synergize with each other to win against our bunch of "fun" ship. Nerf them CCP.
Leto Aramaus
Frog Team Four
Of Essence
#28 - 2015-09-29 18:20:46 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


What is it gonna change for your small group if we blow up your structure in 20 minutes instead of 5?


Absolutely nothing.

There are other ways that we could change the game to make smaller entities less able to be completely bulldozed by mega-blocs. Damage mitigation, IMO, is not the way to do it.

If Goons bring 100,000 DPS to a grid, a structure (or ship) with 1 million HP (0% resists) should die in 10 seconds.

No to damage mitigation of any kind, until I hear a compelling argument for why, and a sensible technical way for how.


The UI update we deserve
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2015-09-29 18:33:03 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Oh no, the other side is using force multiplier and ship that synergize with each other to win against our bunch of "fun" ship. Nerf them CCP.

I'm not suggesting giving unsynergized fleets any sort of advantage.

I am suggesting that proper synergies could be more fun for all parties involved.
I am also suggesting that logi is too powerful. You like letting the smarter side win? Well logi currently is always the right answer. Nerf it and suddenly other choices become relevant, now smartness matters more.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2015-09-29 18:42:14 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Oh no, the other side is using force multiplier and ship that synergize with each other to win against our bunch of "fun" ship. Nerf them CCP.

I'm not suggesting giving unsynergized fleets any sort of advantage.

I am suggesting that proper synergies could be more fun for all parties involved.
I am also suggesting that logi is too powerful. You like letting the smarter side win? Well logi currently is always the right answer. Nerf it and suddenly other choices become relevant, now smartness matters more.


The choice in small gang is already relevant. It's not my fault people would rather be the 14th caracal instead of the 1st Blackbird/Celestis/Bellicose. Those put more pressure on the logi on the other side than a caracal. Why aren't they flow more? They are not fun? What's so fun about shooting at ship that you won't kill? What isn't fun about making the other ship die because you make your whole fleet more effective or the enemy less effective?

The real issue is not logi, it's the player. They would rather mash F1 on a primary instead of F1, F2 and F3 to cripple 3 enemy...
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2015-09-30 16:32:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmer Jones
***edit#2: ill try this again. remote reps of any sort(shield,armor,cap,hull) cancel the auto repeat of active tank modules, passive are left alone, obviously. The ship recieving reps finishes the cycle, and the mods must be reactivated. They have to be manually reactivated every time they cycle for as long as they are under reps.

My idea is that only logi ships, friendly or not, can overload the active mods of the ship on the receiving end, shutting them down.

The receiving ship gets full reps, but only has passive or native tank to rely on, it also give logi a semi-offensive role, even if it is not reflected in the KB. Now, I'm horrible at maths but knocking out most of an overheatable tank on a ship probably means more reps would be required to keep said ship alive.

I'm trying to keep it short, but the main module i'd want shut down is the DC. even just the 15%sheild and armor bonus could make a difference, but the loss of hull resists certainly would. Enter Hero Logi frigates, and more cute newbie roles.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2015-09-30 16:44:17 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
The choice in small gang is already relevant. It's not my fault people would rather be the 14th caracal instead of the 1st Blackbird/Celestis/Bellicose. Those put more pressure on the logi on the other side than a caracal. Why aren't they flow more? They are not fun? What's so fun about shooting at ship that you won't kill? What isn't fun about making the other ship die because you make your whole fleet more effective or the enemy less effective?

The real issue is not logi, it's the player. They would rather mash F1 on a primary instead of F1, F2 and F3 to cripple 3 enemy...

You seem to be suggesting that they would rather be the 8th Caracal than the 5th Blackbird/Celestis/Bellicose. As it stands, the optimal fleet setup for just about anything is a maximum of maybe 60% DPS ships, even really large fleets still want tons of support ships of various flavors. A lot of times an actual optimum setup has less than 40% DPS, especially since you can stack several logi and become virtually invincible.

I'm just saying maybe it'd be good if instead of optimal fleets being half DPS, they were optimal at 3/4ths DPS. Of course when everyone is jumping on the same bandwagon and nobody wants to fly logi your fleet is going to have zero logi power. That doesn't mean the first logi or two need to be enough to tank an entire small fleet, stacking infinitely no matter how many logi you choose to bring. As it stands, 1 logi cruiser can rep about 3 DPS cruisers worth of damage, and 1 EWAR cruiser can effectively remove 2-3 other ships of any subcap size from the battle while still being pretty solidly tanked.

What happens when both fleets bring enough logi? A stalemate. Stalemates suck.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#33 - 2015-09-30 17:27:29 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
The choice in small gang is already relevant. It's not my fault people would rather be the 14th caracal instead of the 1st Blackbird/Celestis/Bellicose. Those put more pressure on the logi on the other side than a caracal. Why aren't they flow more? They are not fun? What's so fun about shooting at ship that you won't kill? What isn't fun about making the other ship die because you make your whole fleet more effective or the enemy less effective?

The real issue is not logi, it's the player. They would rather mash F1 on a primary instead of F1, F2 and F3 to cripple 3 enemy...

You seem to be suggesting that they would rather be the 8th Caracal than the 5th Blackbird/Celestis/Bellicose. As it stands, the optimal fleet setup for just about anything is a maximum of maybe 60% DPS ships, even really large fleets still want tons of support ships of various flavors. A lot of times an actual optimum setup has less than 40% DPS, especially since you can stack several logi and become virtually invincible.

I'm just saying maybe it'd be good if instead of optimal fleets being half DPS, they were optimal at 3/4ths DPS. Of course when everyone is jumping on the same bandwagon and nobody wants to fly logi your fleet is going to have zero logi power. That doesn't mean the first logi or two need to be enough to tank an entire small fleet, stacking infinitely no matter how many logi you choose to bring. As it stands, 1 logi cruiser can rep about 3 DPS cruisers worth of damage, and 1 EWAR cruiser can effectively remove 2-3 other ships of any subcap size from the battle while still being pretty solidly tanked.

What happens when both fleets bring enough logi? A stalemate. Stalemates suck.


You get a stalemate because both side brought defensive support (logi) and no one bothered to have offensive support (webs, TP, ECM, damp) to either counter logi or make the other ship more vulnerable to damage. Those are the support ship I very rarely see flown in small gangs that are power multiplier but people don't seem to want to fly them. I don't know what they see in those ships but you can always run in fleet of 14 caracals with 3 scythes as support but no fleet with 12 caracals, 1 belicose and 3 scythe. I don't think that fleet should be 6 caracals, 6 bellicose and 10 scythe but it should at elast try to cover more support roles than just logi. Fleet should not fly 50% support but they should have at least some after logi is counted before they claim that logi in absolutely unbreakable.

It's not about telling everybody they need to fly support but about fleets having at least some token support other than logi if they want to break the opposing logi. Webbing your target makes it take more damage while the logi don't rep for anything more. Same for a TP. Small gang feature lots of fast ship which mitigate lot of damage just by being fast a somewhat small (their sig) so countering those trait should be done instead of just ignored.
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#34 - 2015-09-30 19:44:39 UTC
Why are people so obsessed with nerfing logi recently? It's like the new "roll back fozziesov and capital jump ranges" thread. They don't seem to OP, and have counters, which are Ewar, neuts, and alpha, not to mention any decent fleet can bring it's own without any trouble. Do people just want to nerf them so they don't have to fly them in fleet?

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2015-09-30 21:27:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You get a stalemate because both side brought defensive support (logi) and no one bothered to have offensive support (webs, TP, ECM, damp) to either counter logi or make the other ship more vulnerable to damage.

False. Two optimal smallish fleets (50 ships or fewer), both fleets the same size, will inflict zero casualties against one another. This is because the logi is the most overpowered while EWAR, while overpowered, is still at the mercy of the very powerful ability for logi to counter the EWAR. You cannot say that either fleet is sub-optimal in this engagement because if they take out some EWAR and logi to replace with DPS, they start losing ships faster than they make the other side lose ships.

The only thing keeping these stalemates from being commonplace is people's general hatred of flying large numbers of EWAR and logi.

They're still overpowered.


Bobb Bobbington wrote:
They don't seem to OP, and have counters, which are Ewar, neuts, and alpha, not to mention any decent fleet can bring it's own without any trouble.

Those are all things that counter almost anything else better than it counters logi.

-Hard to counter logi with ECM when every logi fits ECCM and has a really high base sensor strength.
-Hard to counter logi with neuts when they generate capacitor with energy transfer.
-Hard to counter logi with alpha when they orbit each other with afterburners and have destroyer sig radius along with nearly battlecruiser EHP. You're better off alphaing their targets.
-You can't counter logi with Tracking Disruption, it has no effect on logi modules.
-You can counter logi with Sensor Damps, but they can always move in close and rep from point-blank range. Logi are highly mobile, have a strong scan resolution, a long targeting range, and generally have at least one sensor booster. Load that up together with them being fully capable of operating right in the middle of the brawl. They only take point from a distance because it makes them even more OP.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#36 - 2015-10-01 03:38:04 UTC
I sincerely hope CCP does not listen to all these people who want to see Logistics ships get nerfed into the ground. The mechanics of Eve combat work well at the moment. They support specialization and diversification. A few very vocal folks want to see it become more simple and straightforward. That is not a good thing.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-10-01 05:26:46 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
A few very vocal folks want to see it become more simple and straightforward. That is not a good thing.

I want to see it become more reasonably balanced without losing complexity. If anything, that should help make the complexity more valid and thus used.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#38 - 2015-10-01 06:51:54 UTC
Personally I think my idea in sig is a more interesting way to deal with large scale logi.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Strata Maslav
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2015-10-01 13:57:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Strata Maslav
Logistics are so strong that all large fleets are built around them.

Players spend hours trying to sqeeze out as much effective hitpoints on their ships so the logistics can 'catch' them. This makes fitting/flying of ships, much more predictable and monotonous.

The problem of Logistics is not that they can stop a primary'd pilot from dying, but can do so indefinitely.

There are only two realistic scenarios, you are instantly destroyed, or saved.

In smaller fleets you get the more dramatic and more medium between these two, dying slowly. You have time limit for which you and your team must break you free and save you from the jaws of your opponents.

What we need is a way to break logistics repairs SLOWLY.

My proposal would be a new ammo type. The DPS would start incredibly slowly but it would ramp exponentially higher as the guns are left on a specific target. If you changed target then you would start with low damage again. You and your friends would need to lock down your target so they couldn't warp out or pull range, and logistics could rep the target to give them more time to escape, but eventually even with infinite RR the weapons would alpha through all of their HP.

Targets would have enough time to communicate, who they were tackled by or who was focusing their fire on them. An EWAR team could then break the lock of the DPS pilots to elongate their life.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2015-10-01 16:13:49 UTC
Strata Maslav wrote:
Logistics are so strong that all large fleets are built around them.

Players spend hours trying to sqeeze out as much effective hitpoints on their ships so the logistics can 'catch' them. This makes fitting/flying of ships, much more predictable and monotonous.

This is overwhelmingly true. Cruisers will spare 500MW for a 1600mm plate when most of the rest of their low slots are weapon enhancements rather than hardeners. Everyone is trying to get the EHP numbers, but minimal resistance values are all that is required. If you last long enough for logi to get you, you last forever.

It leads to commonly heard lines in fleet comms:
pilot: "I'm going down fast, guys!"
logi: "Don't worry, I've got you now!"
You'll hear this as soon as the logi has them target locked and is beginning to cycle remote reps, because they can already see that there are enough hit points remaining to complete the repair cycle. How fast the target is taking damage isn't even taken into consideration. When logi is repping you, you aren't going to die--or so the thinking goes.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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