Player Features and Ideas Discussion

TL:DR, In the interests of fun, lets introduce better counters to logistics that allow a more reasonable 'time till death,' allowing targeted players to react to incoming fire, and in doing so, reward reactive piloting and decision making

---

I think everyone can agree, fighting fleets employing alpha tactics is not interesting. You are locked and destroyed. Much of the reactions are in vain as you watch your ship simply evaporate from 100% health. As the victim alpha tactics seems ridiculously strong and 'un-fun.'

'What was I supposed to do? One minute I am at full health the next minute I have exploded.'

Surely we should just nerf Alpha, because it doesn't make for interesting interaction? The reality is most weapon systems with high Alpha like artilleries, actually have lower DPS.

Then why do people use weapons with high alpha?

The real evil here is large scale logistics, and its only counter, to blow the ship up before logsitics can be activated(shield) or applied(armour).

Logistics are so strong that all large fleets are built around them.

Players spend hours trying to sqeeze out as much effective hitpoints on their ships so the logistics can 'catch' them. This makes fitting/flying of ships, much more predictable and monotonous.

The problem of Logistics is not that they can stop a primary'd pilot from dying, but can do so indefinitely.

There are only two realistic scenarios, you are instantly destroyed, or saved.

In smaller fleets you get the more dramatic and more medium between these two, dying slowly. You have time limit for which you and your team must break you free and save you from the jaws of your opponents.

What we need is a way to break logistics repairs SLOWLY.

My proposal would be a new ammo type. The DPS would start incredibly slowly but it would ramp exponentially higher as the guns are left on a specific target. If you changed target then you would start with low damage again. You and your friends would need to lock down your target so they couldn't warp out or pull range, and logistics could rep the target to give them more time to escape, but eventually even with infinite RR the weapons would alpha through all of their HP.

Targets would have enough time to communicate, who they were tackled by or who was focusing their fire on them. An EWAR team could then break the lock of the DPS pilots to elongate their life.

Edit 1: Changed Suggestion to New Ammo Type

Remote Repair Fatigue !

Cool as long as you apply the same stacking penalty to weapon systems too. If everything is supposed to suffer stacking penalty, then everything should.

That made me laugh quite hard. Real life artilleries may have "Low dps rofl" but they have incredible total damage, similar to how alpha striking works in EVE.

Obligatory Line of sight fixes logi and DPS caps.......





Working within the current mechanics, DPS is not capped on how many guns you can activate on a target, likewise logistics shouldn't be. As unfun as alpha and unbreakable logi are, it's bad sense to have 250 guys be able to shoot 1 person but only 2 rep him :/

You can't just nerf Logi. If you are going to nerf logi you have to do massive changes to vast areas of the game.
You are wanting to nerf logi based on mass blob warfare which tends to only happen in Null.
Small scale warfare is totally different, WH warfare also totally different. Fleet based PvE is totally different.

Alpha volleying ships off the field is a bad game experience and we should never be designing towards that being easier.

While adding 'ammo' or creating a fatigue might solve part of the problem, they would also interfere with PvE usage of remote repairs. Forms of EWAR can be effective against logistics, but they are hardly perfect and can be countered by ECCM or fitting Sensor Boosters.

What I really would like to look at is a increasing the time a target has to react to incoming damage without inadvertently buffing logistics, which would only see the creation of further stagnation due to remote repairs.

I always bring that point because nobody ever presented a good counter to it. Nobody ever find a way to demonstrate how N+1 is broken for only one side of the equation.

has anyone been able to counter that quote in a semi sensible manner?


In structures logi isn't just limited it is't allowed at all.

In blob warfare, most of the balance get's destroyed because the number are just too high. That's a core problem of how the game is designed but we live with it because the majority seem to prefer being able to drop any number of fleetmate on a target than being limited since only a hard limit would prevent this from happening. No what you try to do, unlimited number will always destroy how things were though out because of their unlimited nature. Logi in large number are already unable to really work at peak throughtput because they have to wait for damage to be applied for their rep to be effective. If my fellow logi finish topping off your armor after some damage, my reps will be wasted unless you take more damage before my cycle end. DPS has no such issue as any "wasted" DPS is just a sign of a target having successfully being defeated. There is never any limit to DPS until objective achieved but this is not a negative point as you are making progress.

In small scale warfare, logi are much more counterable if you are willing to put the effort in. Their point of failure is much smaller because redundancy is greatly reduced. a wing of 3 logi can be countered in a more precise manner than a 40 man logi wing. The issue is most people want to be "1337 DPS" and top killmail number more than they want their fleet to succede. You never have any issue getting 1 more DPS for your fleet but 1 falcon? 1 Huggin? You'll be looking for those even if they are technically more power added to a fleet than another token DPS. People don't seem to get that so we get small roaming gang without offensive support having trouble defeating a similar force with defensive support.

PvE can easyly be re-tuned if it's seen as necessary after any change to logistics happen. The content is balanced around some numbers and fleet have adapted to it. Logi aren't "too powerful" for PvE, they are just used in a number to make it efficient. The number of logi in PvE fleet will always vary around what the DPS in the site is. Nerfing them does not change this player behaviour of protecting their assets by making sure the risk of it going boom is controlled at a relatively low chance because losing no amtter how you slice it, losing assets while trying to gain assets is counter productive so you might as well put in the effort to not lose your grinding boat unless you like grinding a new grinding boat...

Nerfing Logi is not gonna solve any of those problems. Blob gonna blob, small gang gonna small gang and PvEfleet gonna FvEfleet just like the haters keep on hating.