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Breaking war-dec's. Questions and a small rant :)

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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#301 - 2015-09-26 02:23:54 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:

I am saying this takes something that already exists FREE in highsec and makes it now a resource consumer.


No, you are suggesting that protections previously only available to non player groups be applied to player assets.


How are the assets protected? That is one part I do kinda fanagle with but agree with CCPs stance. As opposed to a pos, everything in the citadel still stays nice and safe on it's destruction. Not ideal, but it was the right call due to the sov blocks.

Quote:


No, it proves that you can't read.

I said that you will never be allowed to have isk tanking, to force someone else to field an inordinate amount of ships and people to kill something just because it's expensive. Particularly since your sole argument in favor of totally destroying game balance is some twisted sense of fairness.


It isn't "fairness" It is just mechanics. That is how eve works. If I have a bunch of ships, you need more to take me out. Instead of a bunch of ships, it is just one big structure. Logic, not fairness. Maybe I cannot interperate, or maybe you cannot explain. It is no matter. I really just want an answer of why it is wrong that somebody who put a bunch of time into the game cannot get a big, shiny and destroyable structure?

It is destroyable.

Not being able to get peeps to destroy it is an excuse.

It will take more than isk, they will need the people to operate it else will be an easy. albiet a longer, grind.


No game balance will be destroyed, at least none that has been actually explained. To this point, it still only comes down to that people are complaining it will be too hard to take down players who until now have been snuggled in a station. How is a difficult target worse than not having it in the first place?

Perhaps I am missing some mechanic, but why not try going into depth. I expressed my view to the best of my abilities and why I think it is fair. How it takes station locked players and isk and makes it into a targetable and destroyable content.

You say it breaks balance and the only reasoning is that "it excludes new players" and is "isk tanking" is the counter. There is no substance to it. I love info. My job in a nutshell is solving problems and improving performance without disrupting original function. That is what I have been trying to do with this debate.

Fill me in, get me some properly contextualized counterpoints. Inform me to what I am missing and why the debate.

I do sincerely want to know. What exists now that will no longer exist when these structures come out into highsec. What are we actually going to be losing? How is addition without loss bad?

Quote:

I was mocking you. I still am.


Mock away. I stand by my reasoning. Sarcasm, trolling, and mocking. None of it bothers me. I know my stance, I follow my stance and if there is something I find fault with, be it an honest or false statement, I will approach it the same. I either learn something, the other person learns something, or they are ignorant.

What happens their end, does not matter. All that matters is at the end of it, my stance is more solid, or improved. From mult-million dollar products to a debate on a video game forums. I stand firm and will not compromise my ethics. I can hold my head high and proud because I know that even on a little forum debate, that it could not be better

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#302 - 2015-09-26 02:58:58 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:

Mock away. I stand by my reasoning.


You have no reasoning.

All you have is "Waah, I spent a lot on it, so they shouldn't be able to kill it!" That's all this is, crying for isk tanking, and it will never happen.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ima GoodGirl
Aria Shi's Wasted ISK
#303 - 2015-09-26 03:20:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ima GoodGirl
Markus Reese wrote:
That one question is a serious one. I really would like a serious answer.

What is the issue if it takes parity of asset value to take a reasonable challenge to a citadel?

If you want the asset value to determine the number of ships it will take to kill a Citadel, then you have to also accept that market manipulation, especially in regions with poor markets will significantly affect the balance.

I could go put up buy orders to Citadels (or components, or however it ends up being) for 1 ISK, expecting them never to be filled. At the same time, I could go sell myself my own Talos for a ridiculously inflated price (through an alt).

This would make the value of Talos very high and the value of Citadels very low and it might then be very easy to even gank a Citadel without needing a wardec (in an extreme situation). More likely, a simple wardec and all the normal wardec Corps could just kill all the Citadels they want to.

Someone like P I R A T is spending close to 10 Billion ISK per week on wardec fees. It would be relatively easy for them to manipulate the market for citadels and ships in some regions.

I don't really think this would be a great outcome.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#304 - 2015-09-26 05:50:02 UTC
Ima GoodGirl wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
That one question is a serious one. I really would like a serious answer.

What is the issue if it takes parity of asset value to take a reasonable challenge to a citadel?

If you want the asset value to determine the number of ships it will take to kill a Citadel, then you have to also accept that market manipulation, especially in regions with poor markets will significantly affect the balance.

I could go put up buy orders to Citadels (or components, or however it ends up being) for 1 ISK, expecting them never to be filled. At the same time, I could go sell myself my own Talos for a ridiculously inflated price (through an alt).

This would make the value of Talos very high and the value of Citadels very low and it might then be very easy to even gank a Citadel without needing a wardec (in an extreme situation). More likely, a simple wardec and all the normal wardec Corps could just kill all the Citadels they want to.

Someone like P I R A T is spending close to 10 Billion ISK per week on wardec fees. It would be relatively easy for them to manipulate the market for citadels and ships in some regions.

I don't really think this would be a great outcome.



XD I didn't mean actually having a direct correlation. I was just meaning as a rule of thumb. If one considers whatever materials it takes to make it, etc. to kind of get a base line idea of what to set the resource to make it and then kinda figure the HP, resistance, power and all that. Not have it an actual game mechanic. ^.^

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#305 - 2015-09-26 08:08:35 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
Adding a couple of pics.

if I can get full fleets of peeps in highsec to take down CCP upgraded supercaps, then assuredly people determined to be big dogs can find enough to siege a structure. If you want it, just go and do it. Bust some balls. I have been there, done that, now waiting for the next thing that gets me wanting to run an alliance again. If I can get 255 people to fleet up in fifteen minutes to do this... All highsec.

http://i.imgur.com/Up37EKY.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/hHmiywH.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/29CemyI.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/BUjphK0.jpg

No screenies, but I turned an alliance of newbs, miners and mission runners in one day into a force that could turn back a wardec corp. We didn't get kills, that wasn't our intention. The war stopped, we didn't lose ships after training, total victory in our opinion. I got booted from the corp though for telling the big guys they were idiot for focusing on damage though with a bunch of people that had minimal dps support skills.

Or am I just over-estimating new player potential. Oh well.


None of that fighting happened in highsec, the EHP of the things you attacked is far smaller than the XL Citadels will be and you didn't have to deal with dreadnought class missiles removing one of your ships every dozen seconds.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#306 - 2015-09-26 10:16:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6061491#post6061491

My coalition could reinforce a timer in one hour and fifteen minutes in hisec, thats 25 people in Talos's, to kill one would take 3 hours and 45 minutes in total.

Are hisec mercs really that weak that they cannot do that.


Those 25 Taloses would be dust in less than a minute.


So obviously you have details of the defences that I do not, but the nearest example I have come up against is a Large POS fully armed and manned and we were not dust at all.

And another thing go look at your Phoenix fit which is a nice fit and I know you copied that from someone else, webs and painters, I wonder if the XL Citadel on its own will have that ability, I hope so. As I said it has to be a challenge, its EHP on its own is not.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#307 - 2015-09-26 10:27:32 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:

I am saying this takes something that already exists FREE in highsec and makes it now a resource consumer.


No, you are suggesting that protections previously only available to non player groups be applied to player assets.


How are the assets protected? That is one part I do kinda fanagle with but agree with CCPs stance. As opposed to a pos, everything in the citadel still stays nice and safe on it's destruction. Not ideal, but it was the right call due to the sov blocks.

Quote:


No, it proves that you can't read.

I said that you will never be allowed to have isk tanking, to force someone else to field an inordinate amount of ships and people to kill something just because it's expensive. Particularly since your sole argument in favor of totally destroying game balance is some twisted sense of fairness.


It isn't "fairness" It is just mechanics. That is how eve works. If I have a bunch of ships, you need more to take me out. Instead of a bunch of ships, it is just one big structure. Logic, not fairness. Maybe I cannot interperate, or maybe you cannot explain. It is no matter. I really just want an answer of why it is wrong that somebody who put a bunch of time into the game cannot get a big, shiny and destroyable structure?

It is destroyable.

Not being able to get peeps to destroy it is an excuse.

It will take more than isk, they will need the people to operate it else will be an easy. albiet a longer, grind.


No game balance will be destroyed, at least none that has been actually explained. To this point, it still only comes down to that people are complaining it will be too hard to take down players who until now have been snuggled in a station. How is a difficult target worse than not having it in the first place?

Perhaps I am missing some mechanic, but why not try going into depth. I expressed my view to the best of my abilities and why I think it is fair. How it takes station locked players and isk and makes it into a targetable and destroyable content.

You say it breaks balance and the only reasoning is that "it excludes new players" and is "isk tanking" is the counter. There is no substance to it. I love info. My job in a nutshell is solving problems and improving performance without disrupting original function. That is what I have been trying to do with this debate.

Fill me in, get me some properly contextualized counterpoints. Inform me to what I am missing and why the debate.

I do sincerely want to know. What exists now that will no longer exist when these structures come out into highsec. What are we actually going to be losing? How is addition without loss bad?

Quote:

I was mocking you. I still am.


Mock away. I stand by my reasoning. Sarcasm, trolling, and mocking. None of it bothers me. I know my stance, I follow my stance and if there is something I find fault with, be it an honest or false statement, I will approach it the same. I either learn something, the other person learns something, or they are ignorant.

What happens their end, does not matter. All that matters is at the end of it, my stance is more solid, or improved. From mult-million dollar products to a debate on a video game forums. I stand firm and will not compromise my ethics. I can hold my head high and proud because I know that even on a little forum debate, that it could not be better


I have to say that reading you on the forums is a pleasure, you pretty much nailed it. Thanks for interesting reads, it makes a change from most of the stuff I read, I have blocked the more troll like ones, I cannot say who as ISD will be called on my post but its easy to work out who I mean.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Terraj Oknatis
Project Sanctuary
#308 - 2015-09-26 13:09:20 UTC
A slight re balance to the WD system will benefit Empire corps. No other balance changes are needed.

1. A WD timer
A WD cool down timer will benefit corps that are war dec'd constantly. If you were wardec'd, and your corp emerged intact after the wardec, then your corp will not be available for war dec for x amount of time. This will prevent you from being consta-dec'd. This is the main problem with the war dec system.

2. Invulnerability Period
There should be an invulnerability period for x amount of time after a corp forms where it is invulnerable for war dec. A sub point this point is that if you leave your corp before the x amount of time you will not be able to join a corp for y amount of time. This will prevent corp jumpers.

3. Abuse protection
Corps being wardeced more than x amount of times successively will have an increased amount of isk required to war dec the
corp. This being facilitated with a similar timer to the jump fatigue timer which continues to stack over a long period of abuse.


Non of your other points are valid. It is hard to run anoms in null sec. The only reason it may seem easy is because you are standing on the shoulders of giants and you are surrounded by a sea of blue. My corp mate just lost 2 Gilas in a row while hunting escalations. That is 600+ mil down the drain. Another corp mate lost a 500M ishtar fighting a single myrmidon who warped into our ratting system. We killed the myrm but at heavy cost. I lost 5 pvp ships last night.

The economy goes like this. Isk flows into null sec via ratting bounty payouts. An average ratter makes 12mil ticks and rats 4 hours a day. That is 200mil a day+ faction spawn anyoms. Some ratters add this to their profit calculations. This is considering they have the means to get pith a ___ back to empire safely. It is possible to get those great ticks from empire missions, but in all honesty your rats are more difficult. You have to go through several different systems to get to them, you have to refit to tank different types of rats, your payout is going to be less. However, if you are not war deced you do not have to watch your back. You can just go and do your missions in relative safety.

Minerals. Mineral mining in null sec is very VERY risky business. Usually ore excavation operations are supported by roving gangs of pvprs, constantly hunting neutrals in the surrounding system. A cloaky camper will shut down operations for a days at a time. Cyno bridigng is a constant threat, and no matter how careful you are, you are ALWAYS at risk when you mine.

Minerals in high sec come freely. Mostly you are free to shoot rocks at all times. There may be situations where you get ganked by code. If you don't want to get ganked by code fly procurer that is heavily tanked. Put up a small pos. Have your orca pilot THE ONLY PERSON in corp and park him inside the small tower while he boosts. The orca goes from the station to the tower and that is it! When you are finished mining offline the tower. If you love mining with all your heart, skill up get a skiff. If you fly a skiff and tank it properly you will probably never get ganked because there are a million other easier targets around you who will get ganked. After a while you will start to laugh at those dumb people who constantly loose mackinaws.

So therefore high sec corps mine vast amounts of ore a day and ship that ore to Jita. Manufacturing corps use the minerals to build ship hulls. Null secr's rat, make stupid quantities of isk, and spend it in jita on ships and minerals, pile those ships into a Jump Freighter, and at great expense, hull it out to the location. PVPrs get blown up and require more ships. Null sec ratters get blown up, and require more ships. The cycle continues. People from empire don't require all that much isk, simply because they get blown up less, and they have access to ether build their own t1 ships, or buy them at base market price. Null secr's have to pay a markup.

One day you will move to null sec and gain a new perspective.

You are right on one thing. A brand new corp that is composed of rl friends who want to play the game together should be allowed to do so. Therefore I firmly believe that the war dec system is broken and being abused.

Again, I do not agree with any of your other points. It is how the EVE economy functions, and there is nothing wrong with it.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#309 - 2015-09-26 13:51:29 UTC
Terraj Oknatis wrote:

You are right on one thing. A brand new corp that is composed of rl friends who want to play the game together should be allowed to do so.


That's what chat channels are for.

No one has the right to a player corp if they aren't willing to deal with wars.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#310 - 2015-09-26 14:34:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
baltec1 wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
Adding a couple of pics.

if I can get full fleets of peeps in highsec to take down CCP upgraded supercaps, then assuredly people determined to be big dogs can find enough to siege a structure. If you want it, just go and do it. Bust some balls. I have been there, done that, now waiting for the next thing that gets me wanting to run an alliance again. If I can get 255 people to fleet up in fifteen minutes to do this... All highsec.

http://i.imgur.com/Up37EKY.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/hHmiywH.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/29CemyI.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/BUjphK0.jpg

No screenies, but I turned an alliance of newbs, miners and mission runners in one day into a force that could turn back a wardec corp. We didn't get kills, that wasn't our intention. The war stopped, we didn't lose ships after training, total victory in our opinion. I got booted from the corp though for telling the big guys they were idiot for focusing on damage though with a bunch of people that had minimal dps support skills.

Or am I just over-estimating new player potential. Oh well.


None of that fighting happened in highsec, the EHP of the things you attacked is far smaller than the XL Citadels will be and you didn't have to deal with dreadnought class missiles removing one of your ships every dozen seconds.


Every one of those pics were highsec. I posted them to show the highsec fleet potential. Those caps are dev piloted and boosted supercaps. The "Revenant" seen is not a Revenant, but a more powerful "Nation". On top of that, their damage came from being able to magically spawn massive clouds of NPC battleships.

Those pics are just to get an example of my fleets. I was FC, I led them, I have the the entirety of leadership to V so full fleet meant I had all five wings, with their five squads of ten plus commanders full. All highsec peeps looking for a good time. A decent percentage was my Alliance, and more were just randoms.


The EHP question and firepower is what I would need hard numbers on to really break it down. If they take a long time, but cannot fight back, that really isn't a risky situation, but if they are powerful to a point that they can alpha a logi/bs right off the field? Then that is too much.

Yeah, the grind sucks, but so does alpha blast play. What is that sweet spot for rate of death to maximize the enjoyment of combat. Be it between two fleets or vs a structure.

Since it is a structure, it should play like attrition. If you don't counter, you will die, but die slowly. Therefore a reasonably sized fleet can hold it's own without losses and as such require the citadel owners to undock something to break the standoff, be it EWAR to jam up their logis and DPS or whatever.... Hmmm... that is one thing I did not look into, do Citadels have Ewar equipment? If they do, that is one of those things I recommend taking off or ensuring that they can be outranged by a sniper fleet.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#311 - 2015-09-26 14:44:44 UTC
Terraj Oknatis wrote:

You are right on one thing. A brand new corp that is composed of rl friends who want to play the game together should be allowed to do so. Therefore I firmly believe that the war dec system is broken and being abused.

Again, I do not agree with any of your other points. It is how the EVE economy functions, and there is nothing wrong with it.


That is kinda why I want system based declarations of war for the highsec side. It maintains the concept of war declarations without it being a global and unstructured mechanic only used for casual PvP. Those that war dec for actual corporate competition purposes (control of belts, station, industry, etc) will still maintain that function since it locks people out of their key systems.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#312 - 2015-09-26 15:12:46 UTC
So, we can either believe that you lied about those pictures, or that you got a huge battle against a wardec group in the middle of an active incursion site. And said site was next to a wormhole.

I know which one I believe. Especially because several of those pics are reminiscent of a relatively old battleship doctrine.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#313 - 2015-09-26 15:27:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So, we can either believe that you lied about those pictures, or that you got a huge battle against a wardec group in the middle of an active incursion site. And said site was next to a wormhole.

I know which one I believe. Especially because several of those pics are reminiscent of a relatively old battleship doctrine.


Edit: Note that the nightmares are mostly NPC

That was five years ago, pre incursion live events. They absolutely should be reminicent of doctrines. They started being used because the devs kept raising the bar. Eventually a beefed up version of the revenant showed up as a "Nation" supercarrier. Higher hitpoints and more hardpoints than a revenant.

Around that time I got a whack of capital kills. I didn't exclude anybody who brought a ship for a fleet fight. Before and after fights and all the time in between, I was always willing to help and held in channel seminars on how rookies could benefit us high SP people and the risks involved. We earned nothing really except a good time.

It does not matter that these were a couple CCP actors spawning NPCs. They are still damage all the same, and lots of ships got blasted. Hell, I lost my vulture in one of those fight. Point being, there is a seriously high level of firepower in Highsec. We see it in incursions as well. Look how fast HQ and momship fleets can form up. Yeah, they are elitist, but the fleets are still there. The people just have no objective or reason to fleet.

I love being a support pilot in eve. The killboard does not show much for me because I focused 100% on logi when it mattered. I never modified fit just to KM whore. Right now, there is no goal or objective for me to go anywhere. I have multiple hobbies. Eve being one of them. As such, when I am online, I am progressing towards my own goals and objectives. For casual and carefree fun, I have other hobbies.

I am not saying eve is bad, I absolutely love eve. The core foundation of the game and it's mechanics blow all other games I know of out of the water. But they all just seem incomplete. Take what we have in eve, and make it more lasting and progressive.

That is why I defend highsec war decs. They are bad for those small corps of new players. Just needs refinement. If you see that new player corp and want to lock em into a war dec for lulz, go right ahead, but to do it for the entirety of highsec would probably cost hundreds of bil. To do it for a few systems they mission in, or a region? Considerably less. If a person wants to keep a market competitor or whatever out of a main hub, then just war dec that hub.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#314 - 2015-09-26 15:37:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
I know it is off topic a bit, but this is what I feel eve pve should be more like. A person has solo missions, but I always wanted a mission chain where multiple people can get independent missions that might lead to the same location. So to truly complete it, they would be forced to join up with other people or recruit on their own. Contest the mission objectives of sort. To this day, there has only been one fight that has even come close to this event.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHfXYUG8MoA

The only event that even came close in terms of accessibility and fun was this pvp fight. Not just cause of the fight, but even getting back to our home system was a great time.

https://beta.eve-kill.net/related/31002214/201205202000/

The ships we used were not exactly high SP. No reason why faster, lower SP couldn't join in the fun. Let rookies get popped if they have a good time. Just fit them to maximize their support in fleet. ECM, neuts, e-support, you name it, lots of things that can be of assist even just a week old in game or so.

Old old old kill, my first so no idea why it is calling sansha, etc.

Essentially this guy was an in corp killer, I was nub but fast fit a griffin for ecm and tackle. I popped, but so did he cause I locked him down for my corpmates to get in position.

https://beta.eve-kill.net/kill/-4952064/

Edit: Oh, and this one happened some time after the main finale as a sort of random live event. The one I lost the vulture in. ha ha, can even see me in fleet composition, wasn't FC for that one, got in late... Or did I take over... cannot remember. Doesn't matter... Oh wait, end of vid I bumped to FC position. Typically those fights could last half hour to an hour. Oooh! And at the start you can see the Nation. They wormhole out, but came back later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEpo4vRGOTc

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#315 - 2015-09-27 13:56:33 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Terraj Oknatis wrote:

You are right on one thing. A brand new corp that is composed of rl friends who want to play the game together should be allowed to do so.


That's what chat channels are for.

No one has the right to a player corp if they aren't willing to deal with wars.



Its a sandbox, players can do what they want.

Its a game, there is no such thing as having a right to do anything.

I think you are taking Eve a little too serious. Blurring reality and pixels.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#316 - 2015-09-27 14:06:26 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:

Its a sandbox, players can do what they want.


Unless it's something you don't like, right? Because you think it should be removed. Don't even try to deny it, you've said as much in this very thread.

"player freedom for me but not for thee"

~Every Carebear, May 2003-Present.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Salvos Rhoska
#317 - 2015-09-27 14:51:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Wardecs are fine.

HS non-wardec gank activities in its many convoluted forms, however, is imo becoming problematic.

All of it is remanded to exploiting HS systemic loopholes.

That they are accepted, for as long as they have been, is testament to the cross-sector manipulative and influential alt player basis involved in this. Their lobbying/spin capacity is enormous.

Nonetheless, its not PvP. Its PvE.

And as such, the PvE mechanics involved, as particular to HS in terms of standing/CONCORD response time/action/behavior, are the avenue for corretion and balance.

I am not losing sleep over bling ganked HS carebears.
I am however concerned that HS mechanics are being exploited past their purpose.

Im all for more PvP in HS, but not in the way that it is currently happening.

Having said that, Im also aware that while CODE is a very media prominent element, its actual ingame participation and involvement is small.

Its similar to the Westboro Church, which though it gets domestic/international coverage up the wazoo that is viewed hy millions upon millions, actually only has about 40 ( FORTY) registered members. The organisation, officially atleast, is laughably small.

The reasons for this unequal and disproportionate prominence, despite tiny numbers and rather insignificant pragmatic effect on theworld as a whole, is bery interesting, but a topic for another thread.

I hope that CCP had not drunk the Koolaid, and accepted the dogma that James315 is the saviour of HS.
Nor that they have accepted CODE as a legitimate counter-weight to HS issues, that obviates them of their own game development.
Because they are not. Its just a player organisation (including some of the most toxic player entities in EVE, as does Westboro), exploiting HS systems.

CODE cannot fix HS.
CODE is a symptom of HS problems.
The more prominent CODE becomes, the more severe the actual HS problems that enable it, are.

HS problems are systemic, and a CCP issue. Long overlooked, and now excascerbated by CODE.

CODE is doing what it does. And fulfilling a function, indirectly.
But do not for one second think they are doing it for the "good of the game".

CODE is not a solution. Its merely an indicator/symptom, of a greater issue.
CCP should look into and address those.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#318 - 2015-09-27 16:18:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Wardecs are fine.

HS non-wardec gank activities in its many convoluted forms, however, is imo becoming problematic.

...

HS problems are systemic, and a CCP issue. Long overlooked, and now excascerbated by CODE.

CODE is doing what it does. And fulfilling a function, indirectly.
But do not for one second think they are doing it for the "good of the game".

CODE is not a solution. Its merely an indicator/symptom, of a greater issue.
CCP should look into and address those.


That has been my biggest point of it as well. CODE's concept from a gameplay standpoint is okay in my opinion, I just feel criminal activities should be more lasting and tougher to fix. This makes pirating and ganking bling highsec still valid and valuable, but not something that is casual.

The war decs, this is something that if fixed could be real handy to a group like CODE. If the pricing was based on the systems similar to how offices operate, that would make control of mining areas more reasonable for those that frequent highsec without negating the core objective. Protection racket for miners.

Difference is that now those favorite mining areas? Just wardec industry corps in key and profit earning systems. It would cost the same as a gank without the concord. But if the newbs don't want to pay up, they are not completely locked out of all of highsec or having to disband. It also opens up war declarations to smaller new player corps.

Dang, those other guys keep taking our roids, etc. There are five of us, five of them. War dec is cheap, lets have fun. It is localized to the system that is cause of the contest as selected by the war dec party.

A good way to lay it out would be a map sort of like ISIS. Zoom in and out for region, constellation or system.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#319 - 2015-09-27 16:23:57 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:

Its a sandbox, players can do what they want.


Unless it's something you don't like, right? Because you think it should be removed. Don't even try to deny it, you've said as much in this very thread.

"player freedom for me but not for thee"

~Every Carebear, May 2003-Present.




If I don't like something I don't do it. You on the other hand have this belief that it is your right to impose what you like on others.

And no amount of discussion will matter because the only thing you will accept is your perceived right to impose what you like on other, no matter how they feel about it.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#320 - 2015-09-27 17:10:23 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:

If I don't like something I don't do it. You on the other hand have this belief that it is your right to impose what you like on others.


It is my right, that's what a PvP sandbox is. And it absolutely does not matter how the other guy "feels" about it, not to me, and not to CCP. That's EVE Online.

Once again, you are playing the wrong game.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.