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Dev blog: Citadels, sieges and you v2

First post
Author
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#381 - 2015-09-22 22:34:21 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
OK, so for anchoring it takes a full repair timer to become fully operational.

For unanchoring I thought the 24 hrs was before you could unanchor to guarantee the structure would still be there when a wardec kicks in. what happens after the unanchor is still not clear to me, is it the repair cycle before you can scoop?

It sounds like 'press unanchor' Wait X hours while it is invulnerable. Wait Y hours while it is vulnerable, then scoop.
Where X + Y > 24.

But it's unclear to me also, that's just my best read.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#382 - 2015-09-23 06:10:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
OK, so for anchoring it takes a full repair timer to become fully operational.

For unanchoring I thought the 24 hrs was before you could unanchor to guarantee the structure would still be there when a wardec kicks in. what happens after the unanchor is still not clear to me, is it the repair cycle before you can scoop?

It sounds like 'press unanchor' Wait X hours while it is invulnerable. Wait Y hours while it is vulnerable, then scoop.
Where X + Y > 24.

But it's unclear to me also, that's just my best read.


I was reading that as 24 hours to anchor and then unanchor was fairly quick, but I could be wrong, nice of CCP of course to make it harder for the small guy yet again, and if they listen to the HTFU group and we add the tank of a wet paper bag to the mix, oh joy...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Philip Ogtaulmolfi
We are not bad. Just unlucky
#383 - 2015-09-23 07:35:42 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

Yes and I will tell him that I will do what I do currently with a POS, online it run some refining and then take it down again, nice gameplay that...


Do you plan to lose the expensive rigs every time? Without them the refining will not be too efficient.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#384 - 2015-09-23 08:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

Yes and I will tell him that I will do what I do currently with a POS, online it run some refining and then take it down again, nice gameplay that...


Do you plan to lose the expensive rigs every time? Without them the refining will not be too efficient.


Well that is an issue I have yet to get the cost information on, at the moment I use a POS module, it may be that the rig cost will make it impractical to do, though I do tend to gather stuff over a long period and do it as one big batch so it might still be doable, you just have to write the cost off. When us low level plebs get the full information I will obviously work out the strategy, there is too much in the air at the moment for concrete plans.

Also many people have different understandings, one poster here missed the fact that the HQ and Hub structure was combined into a Citadel.

It will be a pity if CCP make them too easy to kill I was actually looking forward to this and it was one of the reasons I re-subbed.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#385 - 2015-09-23 10:58:24 UTC
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:

Do you plan to lose the expensive rigs every time? Without them the refining will not be too efficient.

Part of the point is that currently people do not risk assets in a POS despite theoretical 'risk' to them.
So if a Citadel has to stay up because putting it up and taking it down is not practical then the defence needs to be significantly more than a POS has to be practical to use.
And an M Citadel is the same size as a L POS is. So the M Citadel should compare decently in defence and time to attack to a L POS at least, if not significantly exceed it since it can't be removed from risk as fast.

This is certainly not the case currently.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#386 - 2015-09-23 13:32:53 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Masao Kurata wrote:

Requiring the defenders to turn up to at least one of the timers isn't rendering them useless. You are not entitled to structures which are such a chore to destroy that nobody will even attempt it no matter how certain they are that you won't undock.

Again, read the numbers I've posted. Black Pedro thinks that these are unreasonable numbers and that no group in HS or a low end WH (Note that in a low end WH you have to build the freighter and XL Citadel in the WH first also) can possibly muster 15 people for 2 hours to reinforce an XL Citadel.
So is demanding that their EHP be massively dropped.

What happens if their EHP is dropped is that it becomes childs play to reinforce one even if defenders are present, and then they become giant loot Pinata's. Since just taking the Citadel, if it costs 10 bil to build and fit an XL Citadel, they will be dropping 5 billion in loot even before we get onto any active jobs since they drop their fittings and build minerals.
At which point they become useless because they cost so much and are so easy to destroy for the loot.



do it 3 times over the course of a week. and stop speculating on build cost and what it will drop. why use rigs on WH one? its just a parking garage that doesn't take fuel.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#387 - 2015-09-23 14:37:45 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:

do it 3 times over the course of a week. and stop speculating on build cost and what it will drop. why use rigs on WH one? its just a parking garage that doesn't take fuel.

Read the Dev Blog, they will drop fittings and mineral value relative to their build cost. And XL Citadels have been said to cost as much or more overall than outposts.
So it's not 'just a parking garage'
It's a mega expensive loot piñata.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#388 - 2015-09-23 14:45:22 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:

do it 3 times over the course of a week. and stop speculating on build cost and what it will drop. why use rigs on WH one? its just a parking garage that doesn't take fuel.

Read the Dev Blog, they will drop fittings and mineral value relative to their build cost. And XL Citadels have been said to cost as much or more overall than outposts.
So it's not 'just a parking garage'
It's a mega expensive loot piñata.



they will cost as much as outpost when fully rigged with the rigs costing 10-100 times what the actual structure cost.

and you don't have to rig it.
Mikhem
Taxisk Unlimited
#389 - 2015-09-23 18:08:26 UTC
Structure capture mechanism is planned to be returned to old way which means capital ships taking away hit points. I propose hybrid model (old and new) for structure capture.

1. First you need to destroy structure shields and structure goes to reinforcement. Then you need to destroy armor + reinforcement and then structure to zero.

2. Then structure gets full hit points and structure is in freeport mode and command nodes are activated. Who wins this command node warfare gets structure control. Shooting structure with capital ships when it is in freeport mode is useless.

Comments are welcome for my idea.

Mikhem

Link library to EVE music songs.

Circumstantial Evidence
#390 - 2015-09-23 18:58:04 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Part of the point is that currently people do not risk assets in a POS despite theoretical 'risk' to them.
It seems to me that people do, see my previous post.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#391 - 2015-09-24 08:46:10 UTC
Mikhem wrote:
Structure capture mechanism is planned to be returned to old way which means capital ships taking away hit points. I propose hybrid model (old and new) for structure capture.

1. First you need to destroy structure shields and structure goes to reinforcement. Then you need to destroy armor + reinforcement and then structure to zero.

2. Then structure gets full hit points and structure is in freeport mode and command nodes are activated. Who wins this command node warfare gets structure control. Shooting structure with capital ships when it is in freeport mode is useless.

Comments are welcome for my idea.


Structures have to be destroyed to drive the market in producing them, otherwise gradually construction will die as the number of structures reaches a saturation point. Capture mechanics serve no purpose except in sov warfare to define area control, and even then it should only be on an area and not on physical assets.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#392 - 2015-09-24 12:09:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Part of the point is that currently people do not risk assets in a POS despite theoretical 'risk' to them.
It seems to me that people do, see my previous post.


I wonder how many of those were owned by people who quit, it would be also interesting to see how many were as a result of hyperdunking?

EDIT: An interesting exposure of a ganker saying that carebears are not entitled to success and yet here we have a ganker player Black Pedro saying that they are entitled to have success to blow up anything that gets put up in hisec and if its too difficult it will either need to be nerfed or banned. All they could do in reply was call what I said whining, off topic and asked for my stuff.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6058794#post6058794

CCP Ytterbium needs to post here what he said in Reddit, I don't go on Reddit as its a pile of stinking poo, I could ask a friend who is on slack with you to ask you to confirm that is what you said, that friend also told me how you worked out the 48 hour thingy in WH space by the way which made my jaw drop.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Justa Hunni
State War Academy
Caldari State
#393 - 2015-09-25 03:39:42 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
[quote=gascanu]

No one will contest them if they are released as such. Ergo, they won't be released as such. I am not sure how many times I have to say this.


I think you're missing your Dev tag Roll
Justa Hunni
State War Academy
Caldari State
#394 - 2015-09-25 04:08:07 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:


It's been all downhill since CCP made highsec both the safest and most lucrative sector of the space in the game in an attempt to cater to these PvP-averse highsec residents.


Wow, you really believe that??? I've lived in Null for the better part of a year and it is much safer and considerably more lucrative than it was in highsec. Maybe you should leave your CODE fleets and go experience more of the game, you seem that have a warped view of it.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#395 - 2015-09-25 08:48:10 UTC
Justa Hunni wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:


It's been all downhill since CCP made highsec both the safest and most lucrative sector of the space in the game in an attempt to cater to these PvP-averse highsec residents.


Wow, you really believe that??? I've lived in Null for the better part of a year and it is much safer and considerably more lucrative than it was in highsec. Maybe you should leave your CODE fleets and go experience more of the game, you seem that have a warped view of it.


It's one thing that does confuse me when people go to hisec where people stay to try to avoid combat and then complain that the players there are risk averse...

It all depends on what you mean by risk averse anyway. Many people will risk billions of isk in manufacture etc which is at the mercy of the markets but will avoid PvP combat by any and every means they can. Risk is still risk however whether it is on the market, sat in a barge, running through null for relics or simply shooting someone.
Nathan19601 Deninard
#396 - 2015-09-25 16:00:45 UTC
In a previous patch, skynet was removed to ensure that players were risking their capitals if they wanted to use their fighters/bombers. I am wondering, since the citadels will eventually be replacing the POSes, if assigning fighters could be considered again. Now that there will be no shield to hide behind, I see no reason to hold back on a key feature to differentiate fighters/bombers from the drones. Even though assigning may not be used as often as it was, it would be nice having the option to do it.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#397 - 2015-09-25 19:10:32 UTC
I had some fun in the other thread because I was looking to link in the war dec system to having a structure in space, to have a reason to fight, but talking over there is a waste of time.

Earlier I said that my alliance coalition could not take one down, I realised I was wrong, we could and fairly easily too.

Looking at the numbers, 75 to 225 BS to reach damage mitigation, its more like 50 to 225, the repair of the structure does not kick in until there is no damage incoming for 15 minutes, we know that people will play the adjust timer trick to adjust TZ's, because if its being shot it is still vulnerable, so as long as its being shot it will continue to bleed EHP.

Take a Talos 1200 DPS, I could reinforce an XL Citadel shield 108,000,000 on my own in 25 hours, with my corp at full strength it would take 3 hours, with my alliance 2 hours, with my Coalition it would take 1 hour. I really cannot see what the problem is, are people seriously telling me that people cannot do this, 25 people taking one hour to reinforce that shield with 20% resists it would take 1 hour and 15 minutes. That is a normal player session in Eve.

One of the things we do not know is the weapons system and that is an important missing piece, but this only applies if someone is manning it, so the trick would be to keep it from repairing itself while the player is on-line by using small fast cheap ships then switch to all out damage when RL reared its ugly head for the defender. But even then a proper logi fleet set up could defeat this too.

And I see people moaning about this, its just crazy, no one in their right mind will put one of these up unless they are able to drive an attacker away for 15 minutes in hisec to get it to repair itself.

My Coalition in Stain could take one of these down in hisec without too much effort if its put up by a one man corp.

I have shot SBU's for hours, I have shot IHUB's for hours, it seems that the hisec mercs and ganker/griefiers are such weak willed souls, they cannot even take down large POS's, not because they lack the numbers or ships, but because they do not have the will to do it.

CCP if you seriously adjust the design of XL Citadels to take account of such pathetic willpower than I really have to question your commitment to Eve is hard and have to stand up to your face and scream at you, its only hard if you are a carebear.

Seriously what a load of weak willed quick fix moaning minnies these hisec ganker griefers are.

I was only ever intending to put up a medium myself, there is no way in hell I would put up an XL and anyone doing this as a small alliance is just bonkers. There is no way in hell people will put these up because they are too easy to take down, its is not invulnerable by any means, after sitting down and doing the numbers I cannot see many going up in hisec...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Black Pedro
Mine.
#398 - 2015-09-25 19:16:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Dracvlad wrote:
I was only ever intending to put up a medium myself, there is no way in hell I would put up an XL and anyone doing this as a small alliance is just bonkers. There is no way in hell people will put these up because they are too easy to take down, its is not invulnerable by any means, after sitting down and doing the numbers I cannot see many going up in hisec...
They do have defenses you realize. Bringing a fleet of gank Taloses is likely to end.... badly if the defenders show up.

The original design called for a single attacker with an entosis link fit to be the minimum to "take down" a XL citadel. Version 2 is slightly stronger, but still will require you to show up to actively defend. Perhaps you should wait until the full defenses are described by the dev team until you declare these structures too feeble to defend and dead in the water.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#399 - 2015-09-25 19:33:59 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I was only ever intending to put up a medium myself, there is no way in hell I would put up an XL and anyone doing this as a small alliance is just bonkers. There is no way in hell people will put these up because they are too easy to take down, its is not invulnerable by any means, after sitting down and doing the numbers I cannot see many going up in hisec...
They do have defenses you realize. Bringing a fleet of gank Taloses is likely to end.... badly if the defenders show up.

The original design called for a single attacker with an entosis link fit to be the minimum to "take down" a XL citadel. Version 2 is slightly stronger, but still will require you to show up to actively defend. Perhaps you should wait until the full defense are described by the dev team until you declare these structures too feeble to defend and dead in the water.


What a one man corp, don't forget that I would bring in logi too, I have been in a fleet of 25 fleet Talos with 5 logi that reinforced a heavily gunned and manned Large POS in null sec and lost two ships which did not call for reps in time. We did not kill it as they brought allies, but that was null sec. Could the defences be worse than that, perhaps but even then that's not terrible, I could switch to Megathrons and that would still do it easily.

The entosis link idea was a none starter, you should discard it, I had already said to myself that I would never put up a structure with the entosis link it was a no brainer to me, its ok for sov space because its an object to apply system affects or an object in space to flag ownership which is not manned, a Citadel is different. its manned and lived in, so an entosis link working on a manned object seems stupid in terms of lore.

The XL Citadel is too feeble and is not something that a small alliance could realistically put up in hisec, Marmite could take one down in my opinion.

Yes I am waiting, but if it has the same ability as a large POS it won't change the equation much that is for certain.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Black Pedro
Mine.
#400 - 2015-09-25 19:44:56 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

The XL Citadel is too feeble and is not something that a small alliance could realistically put up in hisec, Marmite could take one down in my opinion.

Yes I am waiting, but if it has the same ability as a large POS it won't change the equation much that is for certain.

The devblog said it will take 30 minutes to reinforce across the board which is much faster than the current large POSes with subcaps, and much slower than with capitals and/or supers. But it will feature fearsome weapons and defenses, which on the XL I am sure will trump the near useless weapons featured on the current large POSes. Assaulting a defended XL will require a significant force I am sure, while assaulting an undefended one will be much easier.

The whole design is such that 10-15 people can take an undefended one in 30 (x3) minutes (using cruisers for a M, battleships for a L, and dreads for a XL). The unknown is how difficult it will be to take down a defended citadel. I predict it will be quite difficult to do so - that is require 5-10 times the number of defenders.

But we will have to wait and see how CCP balances them.