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CSMX - SUMMIT I

First post First post
Author
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#81 - 2015-09-20 09:22:08 UTC
Has the minutes from day 4 been forgotten, posted somewhere else(google didn't show anything) or do I just have to be patient (not my strongest ability unfortunately :D )? Really looking forward to read the FW part of it.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#82 - 2015-09-20 14:19:09 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
Has the minutes from day 4 been forgotten, posted somewhere else(google didn't show anything) or do I just have to be patient (not my strongest ability unfortunately :D )? Really looking forward to read the FW part of it.



Patient, I'm afraid.

Falcon was copy editing a lot of the minutes after work, and on Friday we went out for dinner, which kind of got rid of that time.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

per
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#83 - 2015-09-22 16:24:05 UTC
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#84 - 2015-09-23 10:35:33 UTC
per wrote:
https://media.giphy.com/media/ZwX5yT8lDVR2E/giphy.gif

now lets hope it wont be all NDA ;)


ohh never even considered that :D that would be awful... here kids, have this bag full of....... nothing... NDA in your face

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#85 - 2015-09-23 13:04:54 UTC
Still no notes for Day 4... Sad
Billy Balowski
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2015-09-23 13:58:08 UTC
Any news on the notes for day 4?
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
Together We Solo
#87 - 2015-09-23 15:00:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Manssell
Personally I was a bit bewildered by the QA session, I'm assuming then that none of the CSM plays EVE on a Mac or was the state of the Mac client just the giant broken elephant in the room no one would talk about?
Amarisen Gream
Pleasant Peninsula Productions
Digital Vendetta
#88 - 2015-09-23 20:09:23 UTC
Manssell wrote:
Personally I was a bit bewildered by the QA session, I'm assuming then that none of the CSM plays EVE on a Mac or was the state of the Mac client just the giant broken elephant in the room no one would talk about?


They did talk about EVE Boot(strap) and how it used to work for Mac but now doesn't. So it seems someone did play on a Mac.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#89 - 2015-09-23 23:27:51 UTC
I think Sion made allot of valid points about CSM. But I would suggest making it open to everyone and just weeding out people who can't follow simple yet strict rules. CCP could just make a CSM forum that is carefully moderated by the csm. If people can't be constructive in it then they will have their posts deleted. This would allow transparency and also allow quality discussions about complex topics that CSM may not have a full grasp of.

Perhaps one forum rule could be that players can only choose one or two of the topics to post in. That way players will only post in topics that they really do know and care about.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#90 - 2015-09-24 08:36:09 UTC
EVE Online experience: waiting for something you're almost certain it will not be worth the wait, and yet you just keep checking for news every day out of a tiny hope of being wrong.

I am not bittervet, I am experienced. Roll
Black Pedro
Mine.
#91 - 2015-09-24 09:22:43 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
EVE Online experience: waiting for something you're almost certain it will not be worth the wait, and yet you just keep checking for news every day out of a tiny hope of being wrong.

I am not bittervet, I am experienced. Roll
That's your Eve Online experience. Most of us log in and have fun building stuff and blowing stuff up just playing the game as it currently is, and how was designed. We do not sigh with despair every time we log into the game wishing it was something else other than the space PvP sandbox game that it is has been for over a decade, or come and spread that despair all over the forums.

The minutes will be ready when they are ready. But regardless, they are not going to contain some unreported nugget like CCP is turning Eve Online into Wow in space like you are hoping for.




sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#92 - 2015-09-24 22:02:47 UTC  |  Edited by: sero Hita
Black Pedro wrote:
That's your Eve Online experience. Most of us log in and have fun building stuff and blowing stuff up just playing the game as it currently is, and how was designed. We do not sigh with despair every time we log into the game wishing it was something else other than the space PvP sandbox game that it is has been for over a decade, or come and spread that despair all over the forums.

The minutes will be ready when they are ready. But regardless, they are not going to contain some unreported nugget like CCP is turning Eve Online into Wow in space like you are hoping for.






If just they contain some nice news about fw (hopefully the removal of the fw plague missions Twisted, or at least make lvl 4 not doable in covops frigates), It will suffice.

btw. will reply on the other topic we are discussing, when I have more time available to come up with a proper detailed answer on changes that could benefit.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#93 - 2015-09-25 16:34:26 UTC
Can we confirm that a ccp dev in fact attended the faction war session? P

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#94 - 2015-09-25 16:52:17 UTC
Cearain wrote:
I think Sion made allot of valid points about CSM. But I would suggest making it open to everyone and just weeding out people who can't follow simple yet strict rules. CCP could just make a CSM forum that is carefully moderated by the csm. If people can't be constructive in it then they will have their posts deleted. This would allow transparency and also allow quality discussions about complex topics that CSM may not have a full grasp of.

Perhaps one forum rule could be that players can only choose one or two of the topics to post in. That way players will only post in topics that they really do know and care about.



Sometimes smaller more focused groups are useful. Lots of people saying the same thing leads to that thing being noise, which drowns out signal (because you have to wade through it, even if it's correct, to find other things)

Importantly, this isn't a replacement for CCP posting things for everyone to see. Just an intermediate step, to knock off a few more corners.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#95 - 2015-09-25 16:55:32 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Can we confirm that a ccp dev in fact attended the faction war session? P



Yes Smile There were a number there.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#96 - 2015-09-25 19:39:45 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I think Sion made allot of valid points about CSM. But I would suggest making it open to everyone and just weeding out people who can't follow simple yet strict rules. CCP could just make a CSM forum that is carefully moderated by the csm. If people can't be constructive in it then they will have their posts deleted. This would allow transparency and also allow quality discussions about complex topics that CSM may not have a full grasp of.

Perhaps one forum rule could be that players can only choose one or two of the topics to post in. That way players will only post in topics that they really do know and care about.



Sometimes smaller more focused groups are useful. Lots of people saying the same thing leads to that thing being noise, which drowns out signal (because you have to wade through it, even if it's correct, to find other things)

Importantly, this isn't a replacement for CCP posting things for everyone to see. Just an intermediate step, to knock off a few more corners.


Fair points. I think there are allot of pros and cons for the different formats. But I think the most important thing is that the format thoroughly lays out the potential pros and cons of each idea in light of the intended goal for the mechanic.

I would really enjoy participating in any group dealing with faction war sov mechanics. I have offered some ideas that I think such a group should at least consider here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=443997&find=unread

Although they are just tweaks to the current system they deserve quite a bit more discussion. I am fairly convinced that a few of them could really revolutionize faction war and make fighting for fw sov allot more exciting. Not only would this attract and keep new players but it would bring older retired players back to the game.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Harry Saq
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2015-09-25 21:21:29 UTC
Wow, I have been RL busy and hadn't been able to read the day 2 notes until today. Sion's ideas are ludicrous and there is no better way to screw up the CSM, and for that matter CCPs ability to actually understand their playerbase, than to create Cliques Online as an "outsourced" layer of management for focus grouping.

I wrote the following after reading Day 1, I hadn't given the collusion block enough credit:
Harry Saq wrote:
I just hope CCP is discerning with the info they give the CSM that is under NDA. Half of the members on the CSM are there because of arrogant and very visible collusion among the power blocs, they play the game in the exact same fashion. They are the exact type of people that take advantage of the info in the NDA on the macro level, in fact I am certain that is half the reason they are there.

I am sure they also give a crap about meaningful change on some level, but CCP should not forget the type of people they are dealing with, and that type of person does what they do.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6042668#post6042668

Not only did Sion miss the point of the problem with the NDA, his "solution" actually amplifies the problematic nature of working with paying subscribers (competing with other paying subscribers per the very point and function of a GAME) in a single shard MMO where the focus and key to the future is emergent player driven content. His suggestion needs to be disregarded out of hand.

CCP desire to be open minded is commendable but they need to listen to their own reservations on this one:
______________________
Leeloo - I'll start by saying that there are communication issues, however I don't want to take a crack in the wall and add another layer by putting wallpaper over it. In the long term this will be bad, and we need to find a solution to the communication issues.

Leeloo - I'm very against adding an additional layer of people that will complicate things even further...

Leeloo - ...I love having the experts, but I don't want to lock things into one forum, or one medium for discussion. I don't want to add another layer of NDA to all this and complicate things further and I don't want to create some elite group, we've already done that by having the CSM elected, we don't need a larger, wider council.

Thoric - I think what is being said is that there are topics that don't need to be under NDA...

Seagull - ...I don't want elite cliques and groups forming...
______________________

Seriously, don't get caught up in the good intentions and utterly miss why this idea is horrible. Thoric stated the real problem, which has a real easy answer, yes we will loosen the NDA and broaden the conversation, or no, it is what it is, do your own homework.

To put this in terms of an analogy from the very game we play, A new recruit(s) (Sion and whoever else agrees with this) is asking the CEO (CCP) for Director status so they can better "help" the corp with its broader goals in order to better contribute on the corp level.

Do not fall for it CCP, this is a Pandora's box of stupidity and unintended consequences (being extremely generous with the intentions of the proposers).

This is a sandbox, and half the people you are talking to are metagamers that don't even log in or play the actual in game game, as Sion has even admitted to in his own fanfest diplomacy presentation. Nothing but bad will come of this, regardless of intentions (good or bad).

Talk about more stuff, talk a bout less stuff, but absolutely do not restrict the conversation to chosen "experts" picked by those elected in a single shard universe where half of the CSM was elected through collusion.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#98 - 2015-09-25 23:39:56 UTC
Mr. Harry Saq

I think the cat is already out of the bag on this. We already have an elite clique advising ccp behind closed doors with very little interaction between the general playerbase. It’s called the csm. Since they do not know everything about the game they just might hand pick some people to help them with different aspects of the game. Right now we don't know who it is they discuss matters with, and why. It’s all very convoluted.

For example as I sit here now I have no idea what most of the members proposed to csm about faction war sov. Sugar Kyle wrote some ideas on her blog but they were fairly minor points. What if the conversation went beyond those minor points? Who knows what she said? And she is the only one who even voiced any sort of opinion on that topic. As for the rest I really have no clue what they are telling ccp. I think many on the csm would admit they really don’’t have much interest in fw sov mechanics and really don’t know much about them. So maybe some of them talked to someone they know in fw and tried to get up to speed a bit. Who did they talk to? What did they say? No one will ever know.

Now I agree the focus groups should not be closed to the players. But there should be some limits on who can post because so many threads in the regular eve o forums and reddit turn to garbage. That is why I suggested players could only pick one or 2 of these specialized topics to post in. The same trolls can’t post in every topic. If you really like an aspect of eve and really thought through that aspect then you would post in that topic. But if you think you know everything about everything then you will have a hard choice to make.

There is a problem with how csm works right now. The other thing this would address is this would allow other players to see what is being said. Even if they can’t post in more than one or 2 topics they should be able to see in the forums. Everything would be much more transparent. Right now I don’t know if I need to check every individual csms blog, plus reddit, plus eve forums, plus townhall plus who knows what to find out about parts of the game that interest me. I am sorry but that is unrealistic to ask players. CCP should have a place where players can go to to see what they are asking for feedback on and read what the feedback is.

I have no time to sit through csm members give their political soundbites during a town hall on topics that usually are of limited interest in this huge game. I would however read with interest the topics that effect the way I play the game.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Nofearion
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#99 - 2015-09-26 12:17:44 UTC
Interesting Reading of late.
it would seem some have lost faith while others are still wearing their tinfoil hats.
Like them or hate them, a majority of the CSM are there to help improve the game.
The members of past CSM who have thought it would influence their fame or game often weed themselves out as non productive.
Regardless of popular belief I am sure CCP is not out to screw over anyone, Most CCP current employees have had or still do play they game we all love.
Some things we should admit
1. You can't make everyone happy.
2. Change is hard to accept, good or bad.
3. CCP is going to attempt to do what is best for EVE. They have proven this time and again.
4. I will not rule out metagame, however CSM members however elected have a good deal of hard work, long hours and an unbelievable amount of information to process. I believe they do this for the benefit of the Game not to benefit their meta game.
5. In RL most people are not who they are in game. If they are they would be in
a. Prison
b. Psychiatric care
c. Both!

We already have an area on the forums where dedicated players can voice concerns and propose new ideas. or sometimes old ideas in a new way.
CCP and the CSM do watch these threads and look for trends.
I support the current system. changes are slow no matter what you do.
Look at the big picture not just your little corner.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#100 - 2015-09-28 14:05:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Nofearion wrote:


We already have an area on the forums where dedicated players can voice concerns and propose new ideas. or sometimes old ideas in a new way.
CCP and the CSM do watch these threads and look for trends.



I think there is very little evidence of this. They might be looking at trends and not posting, who knows? But looking at trends is very different from engaging and asking questions about ideas. I am not really sure what valuable information you could get from looking at trends on these forums anyway. The up vote system is pretty broken and half of the posts are personal digs at people instead of addressing actual ideas for the game.

There is very little engagement from the csm or ccp in the features and ideas, or assembly hall - or really any of the eve online forums. The exception is ccp will talk about what changes they already decided to make in features and ideas or dev blog and then ask for some tweaks from the players.

It seems csm and ccp post more constructive posts outside of the eve-o forums on various blogs and other forums which means players need to go on a scavenger hunt to find out what they are thinking about their area of the game. Actually CCP Leeloo seems to have recognized this and tried to give us a resource to help search the world wide web and see what it is our csm actually think.

I don't claim to know the intentions of csm members, I am sure they are varied. But yes I presume they hope to help eve. But that doesn't mean they have really thought things through. And if they haven't then their effect will just randomize the game. Who do they think things through with? Just random players, and we really don’t know what they are saying. Moreover due to nda and everyone dancing around minutes it might be months before we even know what they told ccp. As a player the disconnect could not be broader. This isn’t tinfoil it’s a fact.
If you disagree, then prove it. Tell me what any csm member other than sugar kyle proposed about faction war. Go ahead search the web and try to see what they think about it. Let me know.

The fact is there is no transparency until after the meeting. We have no clue what they are going to push going into the meeting. Even sugar kyle just mentioned some tweaks to faction war that ccp was considering. She was supposed to actually present something but I don’t think eve players had access to what it was, so they could discuss it *before* it was presented.
This is not to indict of Sugar Kyle or anyone on csm. But it is an indictment of the general way that csm works. And it is why Sion is right. Some things need to change. There has to be more transparency and use of the players' knowledge.

As for ccp I do think they hope to help eve. But as a business owners they face dilemmas of long term or short term benefit. This is exemplified in the fact that players can pay for an extra account and use that alt which is not even in the fight as an off-grid boost, to give their main god mode. Anyone thinking of long term for eve would instantly recognize this is a cancer for the game and have it removed asap. But if you are thinking of short term finances it may be helpful to keep these in. Like many cancers when you allow it stay it will, sooner or later, lead to a rapid decline in health.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815