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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Stepping into Faction Warfare

First post
Author
Arla Sarain
#81 - 2015-09-16 11:17:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Aria, historically the reason for being in FW is PvP. ... interesting what you would assert as an alternative, specially with regards to newer players.

Maybe I exaggerated by making it seem plural, but RvB is an alternative. Most newer players end up making highsec their primary area of operations by sticking to missions, jumping into a perpetual war only a few jumps out of the most popular trade hub seems natural. The only thing FW has over it seems to be that's mechanically easier to become a member of a militia thanks to the dedicated UI.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
in one paragraph you suggest that people in FW are "just bread for aversion to risk and encounters to farm LP" and in the next you laud FW and its LP mechanic as it is "attractive to PvP focused newbros because it supposedly lets them kill two birds with one stone".

You cant have your cake and eat it too. Its much simpler to acknowledge that the current mechanics can be farmed to some extent but also drive a huge amount of combat for those that have the notion to look for it.

The misrepresentation is that by joining FW you are signing up to a mechanic which lets you PvP and earn wealth, both inclusive in one form of activity. The reality is that they are exclusive and two separate forms of activities. You don't find this counterproductive if as you say the primary reason to join FW is to PvP? I suppose the problem is difficult to perceive for well established players with countless assets at their disposal.

To elaborate, plexing isn't one form of activity. Sitting in one is a preamble, an opportunity to get a fight. Capturing it is the method of by which you fatten your wallet. For most players, it boils down to doing one or the other. It's not about having a simple life, but about optimising.You end up with people who want to PvP, join FW, and instead find themselves more focused on building financial capital that they can then burn on care free PvP. Of course then the parallel can be drawn to RvB, where you grind first and PvP later. If you find that OK that is...
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
i have no idea what your vision for FW is

Cakes are meant to be eaten. I want to have the cake and eat it too and I don't see why that shouldn't be a thing in FW.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
People choosing to sustain an engagement or bail for an easier life cannot be addressed with mechanics.
Why should the bolded part even be a dilemma for FW participants, that's the point I'm trying to convey.
And why can it not be addressed with mechanics? Sounds like large leap in logic based on previous lack of spontaneous 10/10 ideas. We'll get there someday...
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
You say that lower plex timers give less attachment as though that is a benefit. lets remember that some of these plexes are being run in systems where people have all their assets. On a macro level the system already benefits the attacker, since there is no goal post where a system is 'DEFENDED', there is only the grit and determination of the defender to make the attacker withdraw.
I do not see how this relates to the potential of people being less averse to losing a plex fight and an actual PvP encounter (not a system wide conflict), on the simple premise that the value of each individual plex and the time invested would be much lower. You stand less to lose, in contrast to spontaneously devaluing the last X minutes you sat orbiting the beacon. Note I'm not talking about the first 2-3 minutes.
Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#82 - 2015-09-16 13:54:31 UTC
Something tells me that Arla has never been in FW, and is just relying on what she has read or heard.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#83 - 2015-09-16 14:07:46 UTC
BTW I think Thanatos Marathon hit many of the quick fixes for new players.

One point I would make though is that instead of removing t3ds from smalls, I think making a rookie plex that only allows vanilla t1 frigates might be better.

The t3d is definitely the most powerful ship that can go in a small. It used to be assault ships were. But I do think it is closer in power to other destroyers and assault ships (smalls) rather than HACs and pirate cruisers(mediums).

At least there are 4 decent t3ds that have decent parity. Novices would be better if they buffed the pirate faction ships beside the Garmurs and worms. (or nerf those 2)

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#84 - 2015-09-17 17:05:13 UTC
Cearain wrote:
BTW I think Thanatos Marathon hit many of the quick fixes for new players.

One point I would make though is that instead of removing t3ds from smalls, I think making a rookie plex that only allows vanilla t1 frigates might be better.

The t3d is definitely the most powerful ship that can go in a small. It used to be assault ships were. But I do think it is closer in power to other destroyers and assault ships (smalls) rather than HACs and pirate cruisers(mediums).

At least there are 4 decent t3ds that have decent parity. Novices would be better if they buffed the pirate faction ships beside the Garmurs and worms. (or nerf those 2)



There are issues with adding additional plexes that need to be addressed if they go that route. It's definitely been brought up though.

T3Ds will still have a place if they are banned from smalls, and it would give AFs back their niche.

I definitely fall on the side of reducing the strength of the garmur and worm. Other pirate frigs are stronk, but those two are just nuts.
Samuel Triptee
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#85 - 2015-09-22 14:47:29 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:

Most beginners complain to me about not being able to be taxed on their LP.

An LP Tax would help them a lot.


CoolCoolCool



If I remember correctly my tax rate was about 1 ship per 5 plexes


Have You Hugged Your Frigate Today?

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#86 - 2015-09-22 15:39:47 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:

I definitely fall on the side of reducing the strength of the garmur and worm. Other pirate frigs are stronk, but those two are just nuts.


One thing that sort of makes this hard to understand in faction war is the plex restrictions versus the actual intended power of the ships.

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg

Note some modification of this here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKx87NwKaIE&feature=youtu.be&t=8m19s

Now according to this chart it would seem that pirate faction frigates are supposed to be more powerful than tech 2 frigates. Now I think with interceptors ccp did accomplish its objective. I wouldn't say interceptors are more powerful than pirate frigates but they are more specialized and perform their specialized role better. But assault frigates just seem clearly more powerful than pirate ships except for the garmur and worm.

So the question is whether the other pirate ships are supposed to be where the garmur and worm are, or are assault ships supposed to be stronger than pirate frigates as the current plex restrictions seem to imply?

It would make sense that a pirate frigate that costs 2 to 3 times as much as a assault frigate would be more powerful. But it seems to me that other than the worm and garmur they are clearly less powerful. The daredevil is sort of middle of the road. But the dram succubus and cruror are quite a bit weaker than afs. I would say the succubus cruror and dram are on par with plain navy frigates that often cost about 20% as much. I would say you have in order gaining power
1)vannilla t1 frigates,
2)navy faction frigates along with succubus, cruror and dram,
3)Daredevil and t1 destroyers
4) AFs
5) worm and garmur

IMO if ccp wants to justify the price of pirate frigates so they are more powerfull than afs then they need to bring the other pirate frigs up to be competitive with the worm and garmur. (I would think they would also then not allow pirate frigates in novices)

If however they want the power of the ships to match the plex restrictions so t2 ships should be more powerfull then it would seem we should bring the pirate ships in line with the daredevil.




Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#87 - 2015-09-23 09:54:42 UTC
Sugar Kyle wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:

Most beginners complain to me about not being able to be taxed on their LP.

An LP Tax would help them a lot.


CoolCoolCool


New players and new entrants to FW come to you and state that their game would be improved if they could just have their LP taxed?


They would if they knew what was best for them.

Also the ability to donate/contract/sell LP to other players because for new players without neutral alt, and not much liquid isk it's nearly as hard to liquidate lp as it is to earn it. I don't think anyone would miss the hassle of cashing out lp, most would be happy to sell it at a discount to a trader to get the isk.

The best way to balance fw missions is to delete them.

and this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=447801&find=unread
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#88 - 2015-09-23 12:20:50 UTC
Samuel Triptee wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:

Most beginners complain to me about not being able to be taxed on their LP.

An LP Tax would help them a lot.


CoolCoolCool



If I remember correctly my tax rate was about 1 ship per 5 plexes




Lol Mine was about 5 ships per plex - but then my ceo was also new to faction war and he decided we should start by taking Nisuwa from the Gals.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#89 - 2015-09-23 14:02:39 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:

Most beginners complain to me about not being able to be taxed on their LP.

An LP Tax would help them a lot.


CoolCoolCool


New players and new entrants to FW come to you and state that their game would be improved if they could just have their LP taxed?


They would if they knew what was best for them.

Also the ability to donate/contract/sell LP to other players because for new players without neutral alt, and not much liquid isk it's nearly as hard to liquidate lp as it is to earn it. I don't think anyone would miss the hassle of cashing out lp, most would be happy to sell it at a discount to a trader to get the isk.

The best way to balance fw missions is to delete them.

and this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=447801&find=unread


The lp market crashed because CCP was and is very slow to tweak the faction war lp faucets. You are right that fw missions are a huge part of that faucet. But I do not think they should be deleted just have the level 4 mission amounts toned down.

I thought many corps are already offering an lp buy back plan for their players. And many corps already would help with logistics for new players. Although being able to give lp to another player or corp would be nice, I am not sure how taxing lp helps new players.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#90 - 2015-09-23 16:58:28 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:

Most beginners complain to me about not being able to be taxed on their LP.

An LP Tax would help them a lot.


CoolCoolCool


New players and new entrants to FW come to you and state that their game would be improved if they could just have their LP taxed?


They would if they knew what was best for them.

Also the ability to donate/contract/sell LP to other players because for new players without neutral alt, and not much liquid isk it's nearly as hard to liquidate lp as it is to earn it. I don't think anyone would miss the hassle of cashing out lp, most would be happy to sell it at a discount to a trader to get the isk.

The best way to balance fw missions is to delete them.

and this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=447801&find=unread


The lp market crashed because CCP was and is very slow to tweak the faction war lp faucets. You are right that fw missions are a huge part of that faucet. But I do not think they should be deleted just have the level 4 mission amounts toned down.

I thought many corps are already offering an lp buy back plan for their players. And many corps already would help with logistics for new players. Although being able to give lp to another player or corp would be nice, I am not sure how taxing lp helps new players.



If LP was taxable it would make fw corps better able to fund SRP, and pay fc's to take new bro's on roams/ create content etc. It would also incentivise corps to recruit new players and make sure the new players know what they're doing because they can be out earning LP from day one if they're shown how to do it right. The NPC militia corps should also have a flat tax, allowing player run corps to undercut it and give lone wolfs more incentive to join up.

I think it would help in a lot of ways, and what's good for FW is good for everyone in it - including new players. Smile
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#91 - 2015-09-23 18:31:10 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:


If LP was taxable it would make fw corps better able to fund SRP, and pay fc's to take new bro's on roams/ create content etc. It would also incentivise corps to recruit new players and make sure the new players know what they're doing because they can be out earning LP from day one if they're shown how to do it right. The NPC militia corps should also have a flat tax, allowing player run corps to undercut it and give lone wolfs more incentive to join up.

I think it would help in a lot of ways, and what's good for FW is good for everyone in it - including new players. Smile


Legacy Code. Not happening anytime soon.

- Than
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#92 - 2015-09-23 21:13:59 UTC
what happened to the CSM minutes?

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc
Templis CALSF
#93 - 2015-09-24 04:26:03 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:


If LP was taxable it would make fw corps better able to fund SRP, and pay fc's to take new bro's on roams/ create content etc. It would also incentivise corps to recruit new players and make sure the new players know what they're doing because they can be out earning LP from day one if they're shown how to do it right. The NPC militia corps should also have a flat tax, allowing player run corps to undercut it and give lone wolfs more incentive to join up.

I think it would help in a lot of ways, and what's good for FW is good for everyone in it - including new players. Smile


Legacy Code. Not happening anytime soon.

- Than


LP is legacy code? Care to provide a source on that claim?

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!

Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#94 - 2015-09-27 01:01:46 UTC
Yang Aurilen wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:


If LP was taxable it would make fw corps better able to fund SRP, and pay fc's to take new bro's on roams/ create content etc. It would also incentivise corps to recruit new players and make sure the new players know what they're doing because they can be out earning LP from day one if they're shown how to do it right. The NPC militia corps should also have a flat tax, allowing player run corps to undercut it and give lone wolfs more incentive to join up.

I think it would help in a lot of ways, and what's good for FW is good for everyone in it - including new players. Smile


Legacy Code. Not happening anytime soon.

- Than


LP is legacy code? Care to provide a source on that claim?


Just ask any CCP dev who has ever looked at it, or CSM reps.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#95 - 2015-09-27 12:34:20 UTC
How about civilian plexes for rookie ships only.

10mins capture time, 500LP in t1, and no effect on system control.
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association
#96 - 2015-10-09 12:58:33 UTC
Another (yes it is rather late now) idea that may benefit the Militia newbro's "orientation" would be to perhaps add a couple of jump gates from the high sec system that links the Warzone to the nearest trade hub.

Eg:

Caldari
Nourvoukaiken would receive two additional jumps connecting to Kedama and Onatoh.

Amarr
Are less affected as Sasiekko, Myherra & Netsalakka are all connected and all link to lowsec.

Gallente
Villore would be linked to Jovainnon and Vifrevaert

etc..

?

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"

Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#97 - 2015-10-15 04:19:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
Came back from the dead so I could chime in my ten cents. Biggest problems I see (or saw) from new players is:

1) got killed in high sec at the nearest militia station to respective faction trade hub. 9 times out of 10 off the undock. Changes have been proposed. I would like to add that I access a murder nest of Norv./isho. for a few quick modules/rigs here and there. I will be sad to lose access to an enemy station in such cases.

2) awoxers. Best plan was to shift default overview tags to bump friendly associations higher than criminal status', imo. When awoxing occurs to the unsuspecting allied faction pilot, the heavy standings consequence for ally aggression seems like the best bet also.

3)isk generation in lowsec. Many new recruits have trouble understanding how to convert LP once they have it, or where, which leads them, naturally, to the closest 'safest' militia station, where much butthurt ensues as they attempt to undock with their new goodies. PI is actually very lucrative within lowsec and can generate enough for a single account to fly t1 frig-cruiser in a haphazard way. DED/anoms get cleared by proficient EU time zone minorities, in most cases. FW LP plexing is not so bad. FW missions...

4)FW missions have been the greatest flaw and boon. An expansive article can be made on its effects on tier swing, its manipulation for market scarcity price modulation for relevant navy ships/modules. The ships mostly responsible are stealth bombers, who, much like yore Entosis link interceptors of null, can exploit the system while doing so in a very proficient and safer way. Restrict t2&t3 from entering these missions and this will end with a horrible gasp. No need for reward calculation changes or added npc's/sentry turrets. Every faction can use its own respective navy cruiser to complete these solo, if uninterrupted. :) The payout is worth that risk. It is very high. It ultimately affects the poorest when their bread and butter LP items are devalued.
Spartikos Asterius
Gallente Special Operations Center
#98 - 2015-10-27 21:17:10 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
I think the guys above have covered most of the stuff.

Default Militia-specific overview available. Stops newbie awox issues of newbs shooting FW pilots with low standings.
Automatic suspect flag in plexes. Keeps noob standings high so they can still live in high sec.
Get rid of allied-militia purple OR hammer standings for allied militia kills (Gallente on Minmatar violence, for example).
- The current war is defined as Gallente+Minmatar vs. Caldari+Amarr.
- Either set the game up so this is true, or break it apart to a real four way war. No ambiguity.
Ban high sec station access to opposing militia. Gets rid of high sec station games (vets preying on noobs in Jita/Dodixie/Rens).

Edit: Re-phrasing to emphasize pain points for noobs:
1. Getting killed by own militia because they accidently shoot fellow militia and / or fleet mates because overview is set up poorly.
2. Sec status loss having to fight neutrals in plexes makes living in high sec very difficult.
3. Large barrier to entry for living in low sec without logistics backbone.
4. Understanding why somebody who is purple can shoot you with no repercussions. Like, WTF?!!!
5. Getting griefed in high sec by high sec camping specialists. Why are these guys able to dock in enemy systems?



I second all of this. I, and many others, can't be more emphatic about the issues addressed by X Gallentius.
Burtakus
Lone W0lf Society
#99 - 2015-11-04 17:53:03 UTC
Lots of great ideas. It's is wonderful to see so many folks with a vested interest in making FW a better place in EVE. I can only add my perspective based on my experiences. FW is the reason I got back into EVE after a 4-year break and why I stay in EVE . Keeping it healthy is trough these ideas mentioned is great.

It would be nice if there was a capability for each NPC corp to have rotation assignments where veterans can take a month (or some other arbitrary time frame) and be on assignment to an NPC corp with the goal of teaching the newbros a specific skill in FW. This could include basics such as fitting a proper PvP ship, fleet mechanics and roles, tackling, etc. Eve-UNI does this for the general population but a capability for each faction to be able to do that would be great.

Make it so Missions need to be run in a PvP ship. Not sure how exactly to make that happen but the recent Blood Raider sites could probably form a good starting point.

I don't really see an issues with Garmurs and Worms. Yes, they are somewhat OP, but they are easily countered if you know what you are doing. T3D's are similar to Garmurs and Worms in that they are somewhat OP but easily countered in my opinion. For the newbros that counter primarily consists of forming a small fleet and using sheer numbers to overtake them. To that end forming fleets of noobs should be made easier. Perhaps that could be a part of the NPC corp thing where visiting FC's help the new bros go out and kill shinies.

The standing hit and suspect timer that you get to shooting a neutral that enters your plex is very annoying and very damaging to a new person getting into the spirit of FW. I am strongly of the opinion that entering a plex gives you a suspect timer unless in FW

I also don't see too much of an issue with the current state of high sec hunting except perhaps the distracting the Navy thing. Never done that so not sure how it works but the escalating effects on higher security systems works well enough that it can be a fairly risky proposition to camp.

Not going to address OGB's since that topic induces vomiting all over the forums and has been covered ad naseum.

+ most of what was already said.

Burt



Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#100 - 2015-11-05 11:20:51 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:

I definitely fall on the side of reducing the strength of the garmur and worm. Other pirate frigs are stronk, but those two are just nuts.


One thing that sort of makes this hard to understand in faction war is the plex restrictions versus the actual intended power of the ships.

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg

Note some modification of this here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKx87NwKaIE&feature=youtu.be&t=8m19s

Now according to this chart it would seem that pirate faction frigates are supposed to be more powerful than tech 2 frigates. Now I think with interceptors ccp did accomplish its objective. I wouldn't say interceptors are more powerful than pirate frigates but they are more specialized and perform their specialized role better. But assault frigates just seem clearly more powerful than pirate ships except for the garmur and worm.

So the question is whether the other pirate ships are supposed to be where the garmur and worm are, or are assault ships supposed to be stronger than pirate frigates as the current plex restrictions seem to imply?

It would make sense that a pirate frigate that costs 2 to 3 times as much as a assault frigate would be more powerful. But it seems to me that other than the worm and garmur they are clearly less powerful. The daredevil is sort of middle of the road. But the dram succubus and cruror are quite a bit weaker than afs. I would say the succubus cruror and dram are on par with plain navy frigates that often cost about 20% as much. I would say you have in order gaining power
1)vannilla t1 frigates,
2)navy faction frigates along with succubus, cruror and dram,
3)Daredevil and t1 destroyers
4) AFs
5) worm and garmur

IMO if ccp wants to justify the price of pirate frigates so they are more powerfull than afs then they need to bring the other pirate frigs up to be competitive with the worm and garmur. (I would think they would also then not allow pirate frigates in novices)

If however they want the power of the ships to match the plex restrictions so t2 ships should be more powerfull then it would seem we should bring the pirate ships in line with the daredevil.







what

no, just no. Except the Cruor, pirate frigs (well, some fits) can absolutely **** on most AFs, and generally rip navy frigs apart, no way they can be put on the same level

Example, Succubus (underpowered in your opinion) can completely murder hawks, harpies, enyons, wolves, jags, retris. TBH the only ones it has problems dealing with are brick tank ishkurs and vengeances, but it can easily disengage from them.