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Was this a murder attempt on a fellow player? I think so.

Author
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#21 - 2015-08-30 20:43:51 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
I find it mildly disturbing that there's some places in the first world where people must be afraid of someone calling the police to come to their assistance...

"Dude... now I'm gonna send the police to help you!"
"Oh sh*t!"

How...? Ugh

These aren't your typical police.


To be fair, I would draw a line between SWAT and all other police departments. Yes, riot control and "normal police" are being equipped with military grade gear ... and it's not good that they are using stuff like tazers and tear gas where it is not absolutely necessary.

But SWAT teams are exempt IMO. They are supposed to be an elite unit to be called when things are getting to dangerous for normal police. SWAT history

Of course if SWAT units are called in for every arrest, that defeats the purpose of SWAT.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Alpheias
The Khaleph
#22 - 2015-08-30 23:14:20 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:


Wow. You are one of those fabled products of the post-modern, a life lacking in the notion of consequences.

Someday it's going to bite you on the ass. You will have done it to yourself, but you won't realize it in failing to make the connection. I'm betting you already eat Doritos and Hot Pockets all day and wonder why you are not Mr. Universe.


I have to ask, do you have a selection of "witty" comebacks and responses for any occasion that you just pick at random regardless of the context of the conversation?

Well, when I reach your grand age and I can't come up with something better than a knee-jerk response where my brain suddenly loses all coherency; I'll kill myself. I have never had Doritos or Hot Pockets, but I can only assume it is really bad when America's biggest export is stupidity.

But I am touched by your concern for me to become an upstanding member of society though.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#23 - 2015-08-30 23:57:37 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
To be fair, I would draw a line between SWAT and all other police departments.

grenade launchers for the Los Angeles Unified School District police
Politically biased spin on the article (LA Times duh), but accurate regarding the general facts.
YEAH!! W'ell make sure those kids don't get outa line Evil
Even the US postal service is arming to the teeth, along with Social Security Administration, the U.S. Department of Agriculture, and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.
Better not complain about all those social security deductions from your payroll Roll

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#24 - 2015-08-31 00:32:25 UTC
I wonder if Reckless Endangerment involving deadly weapons can be applicable. Even if death isn't the intent, and no shots are fired, people who do this are still putting lives in danger.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#25 - 2015-08-31 16:17:31 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
To be fair, I would draw a line between SWAT and all other police departments.

grenade launchers for the Los Angeles Unified School District police
Politically biased spin on the article (LA Times duh), but accurate regarding the general facts.
YEAH!! W'ell make sure those kids don't get outa line Evil
Even the US postal service is arming to the teeth, along with Social Security Administration, the U.S. Department of Agriculture, and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.
Better not complain about all those social security deductions from your payroll Roll




SWAT tactics and actual SWAT "teams" differ as well.

Everybody wants to play soldier. Even the Department of Education has a "team" that gets called "SWAT" though it's not SWAT.

DoE SWAT team

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#26 - 2015-09-01 07:07:55 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
They say it was Markee Dragon who got swatted but i did not see direct reference in the (poorly written) article.


If this is Eve, it's time to leave.


It's true, this is EVE. Can I have your stuff now?
Omar Alharazaad
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#27 - 2015-09-01 08:15:27 UTC
This is some seriously creepy stuff.
Years ago my ex managed to convince me to move us into a more 'urban' area (small city of about 175k folks in the it's 'metropolitan' area).

This took some talking to make happen, as I was fairly familiar with the area and to be frank I did not trust the local PD. They had a spotty history and it was fairly well known that there were several bad guys with badges amongst their ranks. Needless to say, it was a hard sell for me. We kept a machete over the door and loaded .45 stashed nearby, just in case.

Thinking back, it's kind of sad that I had more fear of the police in the area than I did of any criminals who might be lurking about. This 'swatting' is some seriously scary stuff when you know that the PD in your area is just itching for an excuse to break out their tactical toys and go play soldier. It's a recipe for tragedy.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#28 - 2015-09-01 23:42:47 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Jill Xelitras wrote:
To be fair, I would draw a line between SWAT and all other police departments.

grenade launchers for the Los Angeles Unified School District police
Politically biased spin on the article (LA Times duh), but accurate regarding the general facts.
YEAH!! W'ell make sure those kids don't get outa line Evil
Even the US postal service is arming to the teeth, along with Social Security Administration, the U.S. Department of Agriculture, and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.
Better not complain about all those social security deductions from your payroll Roll

Had a U.S. immigration (USCIS) officer visit our office once, wearing a Glock in a holster. We employ bilingual Spanish-English speech language pathologists on H-1B Professional visas. He was there on a random check to see if we were actually employing a certain Ms. Rios, H-1B visa speech pathologist, as we'd said on our visa petition. Roll
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#29 - 2015-09-01 23:46:41 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
They say it was Markee Dragon who got swatted but i did not see direct reference in the (poorly written) article.


If this is Eve, it's time to leave.


It's true, this is EVE. Can I have your stuff now?




So can I expect CODE. to publically denounce SWATing anytime soon or is this something the very people who are proud to get people booted for "RL threats and slurs" are in favor of?

I want to know because the hypocrisy of people like yourself needs to be gauged out in public. It's not like we don't know it already considering a certain scandal and a "passing around of an audio file" but the spotlight has to remain focused in case something else happens.

I won't hold my breath for that public denouncing of SWATing but maybe your leadership has something they could add.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#30 - 2015-09-02 00:40:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Khergit Deserters
Consider this, maybe:
-When my nephew was five year old, we once called 911 because his parents denied letting him do something he wanted to do. (911 is the consolidated emergency dispatch number in the U.S.) His parents came close to being criminally charged for allowing the emergency response system to be tied up by a frivolous call. In other words, for failure to prevent a call by a little kid under your control. That's how serious 911 calls were taken.

Well hell yeah, I hope if my family members ever have to call 911, people will take it as an emergency and respond appropriately. Not, "OK, here's another. Three false alarms today, probably just another one. Let me finish my coffee."

-A law enforcement long-term acquaintance of mine and his patrol car partner once made the news. They put 40-something pistol rounds into a fleeing convenience store robbery suspects car. Luckily, no one was hurt. Smile

-Back in my recent graduate and broke single guy days (no furniture, no ashtray even, etc.), I created a smoldering trash can incident. In other words, the cig butt I put in my kitchen trash can caused a paper towel to start to slowly releasing some smoke. I put it out by pulling the paper out and dowsing it in the sink. No big deal, I think.

But no. The next thing, firefighters are about to beat my door down, or else hack through it with axes. I let them in, they come in, trooping. One guy takes the offending trash can out and blasts it with high pressure water hose. The other guys check all of the closets and pantries for.... what? Illegal activity? Dead bodies? More smoldering stuff? Maybe more smoldering stuff, but it really seemed more like, "You've got a smoldering trash can, who knows what kind of prevert you are? We'd better check it out? OK, good enough. I did manage to keep them from axing all of the window panes for ventilation, or hosing down the whole little apartment. All neighbors hearing this and on midnight high alert, of course. Especially the smeller of the smell.

Anyway, the next day, the first thing all of us early morning commuters saw was a parking lot full of my water-blasted garbage. And one little clump of slightly charred paper towel.

Sure glad I didn't have a SWATTING "He's got a gun!" report instead, eh?
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#31 - 2015-09-02 00:41:49 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:


Even in Europe people do call the police with the intend to disrupt someones daily routine. False claims are not an american thing.

What is different though is that we hear of something happening in the USA as a whole country, while ine Europe we are still in the mindset of individual countries. So when something happens in Finland or in Greece, we consider it as far away. Partly that's reasonable because there are indeed huge cultural differences. I for one whitnessed a pistol shot to celebrate a marriage , right in the center of Zagreb in Croatia. That's rather inimaginable where I actually live. But when something happens in Texas, we europeans think USA.

Apart from our more gunhappy Europeans or recent conflict zones (Northern Ireland, Balkans, Corsica ...) we generally have strict gun control and so police doesn't have to suspect gun related dangers every time they are called.

But yeah, swatting is really disturbing ...


The part on weapon expectations is pretty huge. Police some places hearing of a gun expect mostly a handgun or traditional long barrel rifle. Limited clips etc. Rare cases when the person is a hardened criminal is there likely to be more.

But in the US of A, serving a warrant can easily mean a house full of automatics and ammo. Nice and legally bought without a hassle.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Gadolf Agalder
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2015-09-02 08:10:55 UTC
I cannot debate on the kind of terrorism that would be in relation to case law since it may be out of bounds of this forum scope.

However, if the target had an office in NATO's cyber-security HQ, albeit $400 to $900 per month (or less), it could very well be towards the other end of the scale. (Compared to the 25y domestic.)

(Depending on military grounds , of course...)

However, given my US relation, I cannot disagree and understand more than fully.
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#33 - 2015-09-03 02:00:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Khergit Deserters
Just typed and erased a couple of Too Long to Read true tales about what can happen to regular folk who encounter cops and the legal system. One was about my (late) 75-year-old mom driving through a small town (population 13,000) to socialize with buddies at the church thrift store. Not a pretty story. The other was about my rich friend's new (old used) MG, taking it on a spin, and being falsely charged with vandalizing a cemetery. (I'll admit, we 3 committed the crime of smoking a doob there while enjoying a nice view of miles of prairie from a bluff. Therefore, when questioned about vandalism, plus alcohol or prohibited substance use, my friend lied about the doobage and failed the entire lie detector test. They had the "evidence" that we'd committed the vandalism). Dumber than a wad of dough Detective Mancuso was dead serious about prosecuting us. Trying to get us to implicate each other, in exchange for.... what? Meanwhile he was sexually harassing pregnant married female staff in the cop shop.

Rich friend's lawyer was ready to enter a fake guilty plea for all of us. "You are not my client, but your stories match up. I don't see any conflict of interest. I can enter guilty pleas to a lesser charge for all three of you." Know what saved us? My stupid ass self called the county clerk's office, and ancient grandma Edna said, "Oh, that old Three Oaks cemetery? It used to be nice, but the stopped maintaining it about 10 years ago. It's all run down and broken up now." Call to lawyer: "Please call the honorable Mrs. Edna, sir, and not enter guilty pleas for any of us." It ended well, but it was a close call. The system just about wrongly convicted three innocent guys.

Moral to the story: SWATing is very, very, very bad. Law enforcement does not collect facts, it stops situations. Real ones or fictional one. It's the courts that judge facts. However, if you're wrongly accused, you may sit in jail for weeks until your docket date comes up.
What are you going do at work during that time? Call out sick? Every 24 hours when you get to use a phone? The charges may be dismissed, or they may not. Still, you still pay the admin fees, which aren't small. And you lost your job. Yeah.
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2015-09-22 23:35:07 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
I agree that it could get people killed.

Simply if the call has the person inside as a very real threat, and said person in confusion represents that threat, it could result in lethal force. There have been deaths from it already. Person makes a false call, somebody dies. Very minimum, is manslaughter. If intentional and directed swatting, it is murder. Just didn't pull the trigger.

I hope the catch the person too, especially if it was a "troll"

Federal Crime in the US since it is now classified as dometic terrorism. 25 years to life. Whose laughing now.

this exactly, when guns get involved like this anything could end up happening.
NovaCat13
Seymourus and Co.
#35 - 2015-09-23 06:59:11 UTC  |  Edited by: NovaCat13
Markus Reese wrote:
can easily mean a house full of automatics and ammo. Nice and legally bought without a hassle.


Um no...

Just say NO to Dailies

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#36 - 2015-09-23 07:18:35 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

So can I expect CODE. to publically denounce SWATing anytime soon or is this something the very people who are proud to get people booted for "RL threats and slurs" are in favor of?

I want to know because the hypocrisy of people like yourself needs to be gauged out in public. It's not like we don't know it already considering a certain scandal and a "passing around of an audio file" but the spotlight has to remain focused in case something else happens.

I won't hold my breath for that public denouncing of SWATing but maybe your leadership has something they could add.

So you compare SWATing with some guys trying to get someone to sing songs for his stuff on TS?

Anyway, this sounds like if you want to murder someone in your country you just call the police? Is that right? Sounds a bit broken to me.
Omar Alharazaad
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#37 - 2015-09-23 12:51:01 UTC
NovaCat13 wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
can easily mean a house full of automatics and ammo. Nice and legally bought without a hassle.


Um no...


Think he meant 'semi-automatic'.
Fully automatic is a pain the backside to acquire in most states of the US. They generally require a firearms dealer license, which not only is a pain to get but is also quite expensive and must be maintained.

The truth is, with their new soldier toys the pigs have better firepower and equipment than the average citizen, and generally more than your run of the mill firearms enthusiast. The only time they really stand a chance of breaking down the door only to face superior firepower is when they do so to true hardened criminals.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#38 - 2015-09-23 23:31:29 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

So can I expect CODE. to publically denounce SWATing anytime soon or is this something the very people who are proud to get people booted for "RL threats and slurs" are in favor of?

I want to know because the hypocrisy of people like yourself needs to be gauged out in public. It's not like we don't know it already considering a certain scandal and a "passing around of an audio file" but the spotlight has to remain focused in case something else happens.

I won't hold my breath for that public denouncing of SWATing but maybe your leadership has something they could add.

So you compare SWATing with some guys trying to get someone to sing songs for his stuff on TS?

Anyway, this sounds like if you want to murder someone in your country you just call the police? Is that right? Sounds a bit broken to me.




Pretty much. As I have stated before, myself and other firearms instructors have been warning against military style operant conditioning training for police for over 10 years now. What works for a soldier in a battlefield does not work for a police officer in a community. So yes, it is actually broken because police training has gone overboard. Contact with police in the USA has a greater chance of being fatal than contact with street thugs. Most of the gang members and people involved in illegal drug trades killed on the street are from other gangs or drug dealers, victim and victimizers tending to already have existing criminal records. But now even people with no record of criminal affiliation can get killed, beaten, or falsely charged. In just about every case now the police are investigated by other police and no wrongdoing is deemed (imagine that).

I have had a few run-ins with what we commonly refer to as "Roid-raging PTSD cops", mainly ex soldiers who spent one too many tours in the sandbox, and they are trained to escalate.

And in the manner of raids and Swatting, in my circles I have known a lot of veterans who, if you get a few beers in them, will admit to all those raids they did in Iraq where they tossed in a grenade first even if they already knew there was a family in there, or shot people outright and or saw that happen and it was not the terrorist or insurgent they were looking for (so they plopped an AK-47 next to the body... you know the rest).

Hence I'm not trying to be dramatic when I call this attempted murder. But in order for this to be treated like attempted murder, both the police unions (an insular and elitist group that tries to make it impossible to fire bad cops) and the "copsuckers" - people who worship all things police and military and think that they can do no wrong and anybody who gets killed by a cop must have "deserved it in some way" - will have to admit there is a problem in some way.

Add to that the fact that admitting that Swatting is attempted murder can reopen a lot of past cases where innocents were killed in wrong-house raids because in an indirect manner the system will be indirectly admitting that SWAT raids are life-threatening (instead of denying it as they continue to do).

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#39 - 2015-09-24 00:51:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Khergit Deserters
To paraphrase Desmond Morris, animal & human behaviorial scientist: "Tens of thousands of years of human development, injuring another member of the homo sapiens species required that you personally meet the enemy at eye-contact range, and physically and personally injure his physical body. With one's own muscles, on another body. And after that, the fighter personally witnessed the effects of the injuries on the counterpoint's body."

"But as technology has developed, the range of combat has increased, so that the members of the species can pull a trigger, or push a button, and never personally witness the effect of the action. The ability to be able to activate large-scale destruction on other members of the species, at long range, may be the biggest threat to the species. It is abstracted for the person-- he is isolated, and doesn't see the effect on the target, or expose his own body to muscle vs. muscle crude injury."

Consider this: Which is easier-- Aiming and pulling a trigger as fast as you can at 10-20 feet, or actually closing with somebody and putting a knife into his physical body? And this: James Brown got drunk and shot up his wife's car, and his-hers house. And went to prison for it, on an egregious firearms-shootings violation. Would the man have gone to prison if he'd attacked that car and house with a katana, or any other "fight you in your face" weapon? I think not.

Few humans are responsible or smart enough to have fingers on triggers, IMO. Sheet, they can't even operate an automobile on a road without f--ing things up.
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#40 - 2015-09-25 21:29:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Why are you using the old soviet method of "you must be crazy" to debunk my points?




You made my day.


But I get what you are saying otherwise, dunno why this other guy doesn't. People can be trained to be twitchy on the gun, it only takes a squeeze of the finger if you are already gun up and ready to defend yourself.


If that barrier from you shooting and hurting somebody is thin for some reason it just becomes that much easier. Maybe some places just have mentally unfit people as police. Maybe some people just get spooked and accidental shootings happen. Some people are just assholes, I dunno but it happens. Police do shoot people, and if they think some suicidial murder is holding a person hostage with a bomb of COURSE they are probably ready to shoot to save a life, ready to be quick and save a life. All person in the house has to do is make a quick movement and BAM hes dead.


It should be concidered attempted murder. You do not call armed police officers ready to shoot to someone innocents house. Guns pointed at innocent people is attempted murder, especially if you SENT someone else to do it with no other knowlage and the CHANCE someone could get shot.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?

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