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Other than to recognize it when you see it and call it out.

But they have - if I took a 100 DPS T1 frigate to shoot a large offline tower today, it would probably take 100 hours. It might even be impossible, if that's not enough DPS to beat passive shield regeneration. Fortunately, we can use higher DPS ships. CCP has done nothing wrong in making attacking XL require lots of damage and ships. CCP has always left room for players to make poor, time-wasting decisions. It's a multi-player game, it will always have elements of more is better. The big difference this time around, is the current design has an "Enough!" point. An upper limit on what is needed. Bringing "overkill" to RF an outpost in 5 minutes like the "good old days," won't be possible with Citadels.

Then you need to do that two more times to kill it.

None because they buy the materials from the market. Who the hell values the time miners spend AFK anyway?



About 20% as long, that's how much less HP a large pos has than an XL citadel.



No it's not.

overall a good response to some actually logically-based criticism of your naff Space Wand Magic Fairy Entosis Citadel stupidity, CCP.

My question, since you have stated that there's both a lower DPS threshold (above which auto-repair does not come into effect) and an upper damage threshold (above which extra DPS is extraneous), is,

For example, EHP walls are a valid deterrent (especially in low-class wormholes) which protects POSs from attack. Dullstars (ie; hardener-only faction large tower setups) are a valid choice for small corps because they put an overwhelming EHP wall in front of an attacker, who must then resort to other means to evict the foe.

You could get to a situation where a small corporation could opt for an XL citadel in a wormhole (or hisec) and it could become effectively invulnerable to small groups of attackers if the EHP wall is too great.

eg; 4 x 1,000 DPS BS vs Large Citadel = 3 times the budgeted minimum length of time.
Thus if your Large is budgeted at 12,000 DPS and should take 1/2 hour to nobble @ 12K DPS, the four BS therefore will take 1.5 hours. This would be fine.

The opposite is also true in that any EHP wall has an effective maximum RF time; if the 12K DPS limit is put in place to create a minimum RF time of 30 minutes @ 12K DPS, and the lower DPS threshold is set at 500 DPS, then one guy in a Harbinger (550) would take 5.5 hours. This creates a dynamic for removing unwanted Citadels via AFK bashing, just like AFK bashing of POSs happens right now.


2) Do all repair states happen simultaneously, or sequentially?

eg, lets say that Pumpkin Spice Sprouted Sourdough Chia hipster Bread Corporation has a Citadel and is attacked over Christmas. They are too full of egg nog to notice the attack until the Citadel is halfway through hull, and then jabber ping their members to man the guns. They drive off the attackers and maintain grid control and dominate the yuletide for 30 minutes.

Does this then mean that automagically the Citadel's eg, 10M hull hitpoints, and 10M armour hitpoints, and 10M shield hitpoints all go back to 100%?

Or does only the hull go up in the first 30 minutes, and then you need another 30 minutes for the armour, and another 30 for the shield?

I ask, because simultaneous repair would put a minimum 72 hours back in front of the attacker from losing grid control for 30 minutes (ie; they need to start over from scratch).

3) There is a case to make that the EHP walls should be linked to structure size not security space.

For example, a hisec repair timer is 15 minutes regardless of structure size, but the minimum RF time on a structure is 30 minutes. There's no realistic reason I can see to change the repair timers in various space beyond making people in more dangerous space have to sit around for longer periods of time nursing their citadels back to life.

This means that a medium citadel, which is more easily attacked by smaller groups, repairs just as fast as XL structures which are much harder to reinforce (more boring, more EHP).

This effectively means that XL structures are more heavily skewed in favour of the defender, regardless of security space. In high security space, XL citadels will be effectively impervious to attack by small organisations, which have to turn up and begin damaging it in a significant way within 15 minutes, or lose potentially 200M EHP worth of grinding.

The alternative is to make mediums repair faster than large and XL citadels. ie;
15 mins Mediums
30 Large
60 mins XL

Did you even read the devblog?

So you are saying that it should take 30 minutes to attack any structure (with 10-20 players as the numbers show) everywhere except in highsec and low-class wormholes where it should take 3+ times as long and require 5 times as many players? And this in the spaces where corp/alliances sizes tend to be the smallest?

I don't know why I continue to argue with you as if this is going to be how they are released. There is no way they will be put into the game as such. If they make it to highsec and C1/C2s at all, there will have to be a mechanism by which 20 players can contest them in 30-60 minutes. Otherwise, we just won't see XLs there until when and if dreads make their way into these spaces.

Large POS costs like 300 mil. XL Citadel costs like 30 to 100 bil. That's a huge difference. It's something like killing a mothership or a titan. When you tackle those - hundreds of players will run as fast as they can to score a kill. And citadels are already ~tackled~. So if anything, I think the risk is still too high, but at least it's far better than it was in enthosis version.

And complains about things being safer in highsec, seriously? It's designed to be safer.

I have this inkling that CCP will actually allow caps into HS along with the release of these citadels.

If they don't it makes sense to not allow XL citadels in HS.

I am not trying to be a pain, but this is the current situation in hisec you are referring to, these new structures IMO will change hisec as will the Drifter invasions. At the moment all the prey are in small corps or alliances, these structures give a reason to actually have a proper corp or alliance in hisec. The only question is do the hisec players have it in them, from what I saw in the AG movement the answer is possibly yes. If I was running the AG movement, I would build four XL structures either side of the gank pipes and I would then set them up as market hubs. Goons would have to come in, just think of the fun.

These things are serious investments in materials and time, hell I am only planning to put a Medium at this point, but then again I am in NPC null. Some WH people I know are planning a Large, yeah some people might build an XL, my alliance might do it to really try and stick a claim to an area.

In terms of your WH comment you are mixing up the number of people who can live there as against the numbers that can come in, I have seen WH fleets of 20+ Dreads evicting people. So someone with more ISK then sense could put an XL in a C3, does CCP have to make them all easy to kill because someone might do that? But here is the rub, that is a serious investment that means they are going to try and hold that place. I have been involved in building two outposts and both times it was because the people wanted to do it as an experience, they had no hope to keep the space, this changes with the new structures. If someone puts an XL in a C3 that is a statement of intent, they are there to stay.

Of course people will contest them, but it will require serious effort its not a cake walk, Eve is supposed to be hard, its not the same as blowing up a freighter as per your CODE fleet numbers.

Don't say that others wont do what you are unable to do.