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Dev blog: Citadels, sieges and you v2

First post
Author
Oskolda Eriker
WH0RE SQUAD
ATTENTION WH0RES
#101 - 2015-09-17 19:08:14 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

So in other words, stuff all your stuff into a carrier and be sure to be sitting in that carrier before logging off Big smile

like good old times.


whats about boost isk/hour in w-space (now in k-space you can have same without WH problems)
Now WH it's more like a scorched wasteland
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#102 - 2015-09-17 19:09:40 UTC
Sasha Sen wrote:
As with previous changes the question that I still cant find an answer to is whether we can repackage ships in M/L/XL citadels or not.

PLEASE CCP, it's a simple question. (in WH's)


Yes you can, all sizes.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

Sigras
Conglomo
#103 - 2015-09-17 19:14:02 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Aebe Amraen wrote:
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Andre Vauban wrote:
How are you going to prevent a single kiting sniper from applying damage constantly to prolong the repair timer until you have to go to sleep? Ie warp a sniper corm in at range, shoot once, warp off. Repeat this with a single pilot until you have to log off. It's nearly impossible to stop and you have effective control of the grid, but you can never repair your structure since they are taking pot shots at it.


I think once its fully Repped your out of luck from how I read it. If it takes no damage in 30 seconds repairs kick in. It takes 15 total minutes to fully repair. So if your kiting ship is not beating its repair rate, as you warp in and out it will have of just repaired itself up. Hence why having Grid control and getting your enemies off is important as quick as possible.

Shoot it once during repair and it stops for 30 seconds.
30 seconds go by and no damage is received in that time repair cycle kicks back in.
Kitey ship shoots it again, warps off.. 30 second pause.. DPS doesnt do much of anything to it tho
30 seconds go by and that damage is repped as well as more until the ship lands to shoot it again and then warp off.
30 seconds go by, damage was still negligible so it finished its repair cycle after 15 minutes of self-repair.
The repair completed after the vulnerability cycle due to 30 second pauses, and it went back to an Invulnerable state.

Compared to if a fleet was on field shooting it which would keep the repair cycle from restarting and eventually it would get reinforced or chased away.

If reinforced , wash, rinse, repeat x2 more times for armor and Structure.

If chased away and it had time to repair.. wait until next window.


Andre has a legitimate concern here. A cormorant with a lot of bookmarks can easily apply damage once every 30 seconds, from >100km out, while being nearly impossible to catch. It doesn't matter that he has **** damage, as long as he can keep the repair timer prolonged (until the rest of his fleet arrives, for example, or just until he gets tired of trolling).


We will probably do a shorter timer (say 10 seconds) to resume counting down the repair timer as well as a small % damage threshold to trigger the pause. Balancing these will be required to prevent the hit and run tactics which we stated we want to prevent being effective.

I would rather see a simple moving average (SMA) or weighted moving average over the repair timer needing to be above some threshold. That would mean consistent damage is more useful than a damage spike every once in a while.
Michal Jita
Lords Of The Universe
#104 - 2015-09-17 19:20:30 UTC
Great improvement on the first proposal, all super up to this point:
Quote:
We revaluated our position on Wormhole space asset safety from our “I feel safe in Citadel city” blog. Structures destroyed in wormhole space will see all of their assets lost when destroyed and subject to the magical loot fairy rules that would normally apply for ship cargohold.

Quote:
We are aware that the long process of sieging a Citadel (up to one week) is considerably longer that what’s currently in place in Wormhole space. We do know that controlling traffic in Wormhole space to be a taxing activity, which is why we are considering having further variations in place there so that the total siege doesn’t exceed 48 hours there.


Now I ain't PVP shy, but there is no way smaller entities will be able to defent, knowing that every citadel will drop everything there will be no point in having anything inside if you are a small corporation.

I heard of proposal where there is 2 tier loot ferry, first stage halfs assets between loot and what can be recovered, second stage loot is divided in destroyed and dropped.
Now this sounds OK'ish, I feel better with 50/50 chance of loosing stuff, and attackers will think twice before attacking to 'just get 1/4 of stuff.

48h? seriously, not only I will loose all my stuff, but also if I am small corporation going to fanfest, I will loose it over a single weekend to a reasonably small fleet.

Bad design havily favoring attackers

WH = dangerous, unknown and all, but be serious, it now takes a reasonably big force to dispose of a well defended POS even without defenders, this is taking it way to far.

Please think a bit about all the smaller corporations in WH, not just big bullies - coprorations that got your ear on CSM.

Again just to reitirate, I am all for danger, risk and loosing stuff, initial proposal wasn't good, but this is just ridiculus!!!
glepp
New Caldari Bureau of Investigation
#105 - 2015-09-17 19:27:29 UTC
Looks bloody amazing.

One small issue is the numbers needed to reach damage mitigation and the time required to reinforce.

In a large fleet battle of say 250 v 200 or so, the attackers can dedicate 50 of their BS/HACs or a secondary fleet to shooting at the citadel, while the rest keep the defenders engaged and still ref the structure. So even if the defenders eventually manage to hold the field, they can lose the station. Makes blobbing a VERY effective tactic and makes it harder for a small force to defend. Dunno if this is what you want, but those numbers may need tweaking.

xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#106 - 2015-09-17 19:36:51 UTC
Will Ship Scanners (or a new equivalent) allow you to see how a structure is equipped?
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#107 - 2015-09-17 19:38:22 UTC
xttz wrote:
Will Ship Scanners (or a new equivalent) allow you to see how a structure is equipped?


Yes.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

Marech Bhayanaka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#108 - 2015-09-17 19:40:52 UTC
When I read "Damage mitigation" I understand the phrase to mean the amount by which damage is reduced. So when you say a M sized structure has damage mitigation of 4000DPS, that means to me that 4000 DPS will be subtracted from the incoming damage.

But from the accompanying text, you seem to want it to mean the point beyond which no more damage will taken. If I have understood that correctly, I suggest you refer to it as the "DPS cap" rather than the "Damage mitigation". It will be less confusing.

Marech.
Siobhan MacLeary
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#109 - 2015-09-17 19:41:29 UTC
Quote:
We revaluated our position on Wormhole space asset safety from our “I feel safe in Citadel city” blog. Structures destroyed in wormhole space will see all of their assets lost when destroyed and subject to the magical loot fairy rules that would normally apply for ship cargohold.


I'm as excited as anyone, probably more excited, for Citadels to land. However, as a longtime wormhole resident, this part is something I disagree with. There should absolutely be loot drops in w-space when a Citadel is destroyed, however, I don't think it's fair to treat Citadel storage space like current POS storage space or storage space in ships.

Hear me out here. In the absence of any information saying otherwise, I'm assuming that storage space in Citadels will function more like that of current-day stations than current-day POSes. Namely, a director or corp member with specific roles won't necessarily be able to see and handle your assets should they want to attempt to evac assets during an eviction. Compare to POSes right now, where a director can see the contents of all structures, and the only structure where he cannot touch one's assets is the PHA.

Rather than making Citadel destruction a super-special snowflake case in WHs, where your stuff is either dropped or destroyed, it makes more sense to me for items that are not dropped on Citadel destruction to be recoverable under the same mechanics available to those in k-space - specifically, dropping a new Citadel and recovering assets to it.

Re-establishing a foothold in a WH to get a recovery Citadel in before your entry hole closes, right after being evicted, is a hell of a hail mary. Doing so successfully is a clutch play that should be rewarded with knowing that you may have lost some things to the hostiles, but you can still recover what they didn't get and maybe not lose all your ****.

If stuff is just gone after a Citadel is destroyed, that can spell the end of smaller entities who might have all of their assets in their w-space Citadel. For large entities, once your Citadel is set to be hull-vulnerable it becomes an alarm-clock op to get all of your extraneous **** evac'd before the final timer.

TL;DR: Yes, magical loot fairy on Citadels is great. What doesn't drop should be recoverable, not destroyed. Adds another risk/reward inflection point, adds another chance for aggressors to win the field, increases incentive to fight for you space rather than evacing.

Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.” - CCP Soundwave

Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
G0N3 F1SS10N
#110 - 2015-09-17 19:48:53 UTC
Several questions and clarifications:

Clarification: You list the self-repair rate in "Null Security Space, owner has no index" as 60 minutes, is it correct to assume this includes NPC null sec since there is no index there?

Question: I might have missed it, but when the station is in an invulnerability phase, can people be able to evac the items inside?

Question: I understand the reason for not having auto-defenses, but lets put it this way: just because the lock to your house can be bypassed by an experienced thief, does that mean you stop locking your door? Blink

Question: so what will the future of Entosis modules be? Are you going to phase them out in the future? Unless I read between the lines too deeply there.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

Lt Shard
Team Pizza
Good at this Game
#111 - 2015-09-17 19:52:19 UTC
Quote:
We revaluated our position on Wormhole space asset safety from our “I feel safe in Citadel city” blog. Structures destroyed in wormhole space will see all of their assets lost when destroyed and subject to the magical loot fairy rules that would normally apply for ship cargohold.



AH come on now.

I like shooting pinatas and getting the candy inside, but why should our good friends over in kspace have magic teleporting cans that saves their candy. I'm hitting the pinata to get the candy, not to waste ammo on it.

Just bite the bullet ccp and make them cry more.
Mdaemon
Very Industrial Corp.
Legion of xXDEATHXx
#112 - 2015-09-17 19:56:12 UTC
Full invulnerability for citadel is bullshit.
Why can't I shoot this citadel right now? What magic protects it?
Please, give citadel's 99.9% omniresist over "invulnerability period", but if I have a huge fleet, I shouldn't wait three hours of vulnerability at Saturday night.

Eve is the game about social interactions. Invulnerability magic kills these interactions
Camios
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2015-09-17 19:57:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Camios
I have a concern about what happens after a structure is reinforced.

Quote:
The weekly vulnerability window design hasn’t changed much from the last blog. This still represents a specific amount of hours that have to be assigned on a weekly basis, during which the structure will be vulnerable. Hours are assigned on a calendar and players with proper roles have control when they should happen.


I think that there could be TWO vulnerability windows. One, shorter (like how it is proposed in the DevBlog) and another, longer, which represents the emergency vulnerability window which is activated only after a reinforced state. The emergency vulnerability window indicates when a structure can exit reinforcement mode.

The difference to the proposed system is that the defender would then have more control on how the war will go on. Otherwise they can just decide when an attack can start, but they have no influence on the time of the subsequent attacks.


Possible rules:

- Standard Vulnerability window, weekly total : 6 hours
- Emergency Vulnerability window, weekly total : 30 hours (+6 six hours of the standard vulnerability window)
- Reinforced mode lasts 12 hours of the emergency vulnerability window


Example:
Random Corp Ltd. sets the standard vulnerability window starting at 15.00 and ending at 21.00 on Saturday, the whole 6 hours. They decide to set the emergency vulnerability window (30 hours ) like this:

- None on Sunday, they have kids to watch
- None on Monday, because they have to work
- 10 hours on Tuesday (14.00-24.00), because they're all on holiday
- 6 hours on Wednesday (18.00-24.00)
- 6 hours on Thursday (18.00-24.00)
- 7 hours on Friday (17.00-24.00)

- They get attacked by Tough Guys GmbH at 20.00 on Saturday and their structure enters reinforced mode on 20.15 on the same Saturday.
- Random Corp Ldt will live in panic until Wednesday at 19.15, after 12 hours of reinforced mode in the emergency vulnerability window. They fight and lose, the station enters the second reinforcement mode at 20.00.
- The structure becomes vulnerable again at 19.00 on Friday, after another 12 hours of reinforced mode in the emergency vulnerability window. Random Corp Ltd finally wins because Tough Guys GmbH are already drunk at that time, and the structure is saved.

Note: I think the emergency vulnerability window should be public too so that an attacker can plan precisely the timing of the starting attack, in order not to end up like Tough Guys GmbH and plan your alcoholic parties wisely.

Perhaps it's more complicated, but solves a possible problem.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Reckoning Star Alliance
#114 - 2015-09-17 20:01:32 UTC
Mdaemon wrote:
Full invulnerability for citadel is bullshit.
Why can't I shoot this citadel right now? What magic protects it?
Please, give citadel's 99.9% omniresist over "invulnerability period", but if I have a huge fleet, I shouldn't wait three hours of vulnerability at Saturday night.

Eve is the game about social interactions. Invulnerability magic kills these interactions


There is no interaction between an attacking fleet and a group who is offline and sleeping while you attack their structure.
Timers and windows work the increase the likelyhood of content for both sides by allowing the defender to pick the engagement time and the attacker choosing to engage during that time.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
G0N3 F1SS10N
#115 - 2015-09-17 20:09:11 UTC
Another question: since you are abandoning the Entosis link for Citadels, why not remove the vulnerability window completely? I tend to be a protectionist kind of person, but even a surprise attack should be surprising.

Why not merge the mechanics you have for POCOs with that of structures? They can be attacked at any point in time. Once you get shields of the Citadel down to 0 you enter the invulnerability window which then exits roughly 48 hours later during a predetermined time zone period (like POCOs). At this point the repair cycle starts, and attackers can continue the attack until the Armor hits 0 and the next invulnerability window starts until it exits at the per-determined window (the attacker will have a good idea when since they just saw it for the shields). Same with the Hull.

This means it can take up to a week to take down a structure, a definite commitment of forces, but the initial attack can occur at any point.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

Bertral
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#116 - 2015-09-17 20:12:38 UTC
Quote:
As mentioned in the previous blog, all structures will have warpable signatures like combat anomalies. They will also show up in space / overview whenever the player can dock inside them


What's the point of showing them as anomalies if anyone can still warp to it ? It belongs in the overview.
Did you mean we have to probe down neutral citadels ?
Mdaemon
Very Industrial Corp.
Legion of xXDEATHXx
#117 - 2015-09-17 20:15:52 UTC
Obil Que wrote:

There is no interaction between an attacking fleet and a group who is offline and sleeping while you attack their structure.
Timers and windows work the increase the likelyhood of content for both sides by allowing the defender to pick the engagement time and the attacker choosing to engage during that time.


1. There is no interaction between citadel's owner and enemy fleet, if citadel vulnerable only 3 hours in week
2. How huge fleet needed to destroy citadel with more than 1 billion effective HP (if will be 99.9% omniresist instead full invulnerability)? You need a lot of interactions to organize such a large fleet
M1k3y Koontz
THE AESIR.
Hostile Probes
#118 - 2015-09-17 20:30:15 UTC
This is probably a good idea.

DPS mitigation is excellent, 30 minutes is a good time to prevent a ninja-RF, but prevent an unnecessarily long grind for attackers.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Thron Legacy
White Zulu
Scorpion Federation
#119 - 2015-09-17 20:32:07 UTC
Mdaemon wrote:
Obil Que wrote:

There is no interaction between an attacking fleet and a group who is offline and sleeping while you attack their structure.
Timers and windows work the increase the likelyhood of content for both sides by allowing the defender to pick the engagement time and the attacker choosing to engage during that time.


1. There is no interaction between citadel's owner and enemy fleet, if citadel vulnerable only 3 hours in week
2. How huge fleet needed to destroy citadel with more than 1 billion effective HP (if will be 99.9% omniresist instead full invulnerability)? You need a lot of interactions to organize such a large fleet


Vulnerability while damaged lasts until timer reaches 0, which wont happen when it gets shot all the time. Stop trying to save your dunking departement.
Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
#120 - 2015-09-17 20:35:34 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
How are you going to prevent a single kiting sniper from applying damage constantly to prolong the repair timer until you have to go to sleep? Ie warp a sniper corm in at range, shoot once, warp off. Repeat this with a single pilot until you have to log off. It's nearly impossible to stop and you have effective control of the grid, but you can never repair your structure since they are taking pot shots at it.
And this is the reason I still think it would be wise to have at least some sort of automatic defence present.

Here I used to have a sig of our old Camper in space. Now it is disregarded as being the wrong format. Looking out the window I see one thing: Nothing wrong with the format of our Camper! Silly CCP......