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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Any news of a Faction Warfare change?

Author
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc
Templis CALSF
#101 - 2015-09-15 11:59:01 UTC
Raffael Ramirez wrote:
Yang Aurilen wrote:
Raffael Ramirez wrote:
Maybe an obviously stupid idea, but what about incorporating incursion like scenarios into FW to gain sov points?

Would encourage fleet formation, and fights on every scale, would make Sov actually be earned by killing the other factions ships and wouldn't encourage afk play?

Plus the code is already there so wouldn't be that much effort and apparently incursions earn you a killing so you can fund your PVP mistakes easily.

I have to admit am not fully familiar with all the mechanics so it might just be a bad idea.







Please don't make FW any more PvE'ish than it already is.



Hey I am all for kill-board whoring until a certain k/d ratio gives you a system - It just seemed that people are looking for a more meaningful way to earn LPs other than chasing WCS frigs around :).



Earn LP? m8 stabbed farmers are the least of our problems if we want to earn LP. stabbed farmers can't chase us out of any plexes. What we want are fights first and foremost. That and all the LP I have right now is purely from shooting war targets.

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!

Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
Pen Is Out
#102 - 2015-09-16 03:57:27 UTC
Stabbed farmers exist, but they aren't ubiquitous like some seem to suggest.

You know what are everywhere? Elite pvp gods in linked, snaked, drugged T3D's and Garmurs/Worms/Orthrus. Let's ban T3D's from small plexes, nerf the Svipul's speed and hit the Mordus/Guristas line hard with the nerf bat like they deserve.

I'd like to see suspect flags for neutrals entering FW plexes and OGB being addressed, but those are both controversial and will be a bit longer in coming. EVERYONE agrees that the Svipul is still OP, and Mordus/Guristas kiters are cancer.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#103 - 2015-09-16 17:15:01 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Stabbed farmers exist, but they aren't ubiquitous like some seem to suggest.

You know what are everywhere? Elite pvp gods in linked, snaked, drugged T3D's and Garmurs/Worms/Orthrus. Let's ban T3D's from small plexes, nerf the Svipul's speed and hit the Mordus/Guristas line hard with the nerf bat like they deserve.

I'd like to see suspect flags for neutrals entering FW plexes and OGB being addressed, but those are both controversial and will be a bit longer in coming. EVERYONE agrees that the Svipul is still OP, and Mordus/Guristas kiters are cancer.


I am sympathetic but I if you ban t3d from smalls it will just be afs - it used to be the hawk. The T3ds do cost more so they should be better. Also although I think they are clearly more powerfull than destroyers and AFs I think they are clearly outclassed by the pirate cruisers and HACs.

Clearly garmurs and worms are overpowered compared to the other pirate ships. But I would just as soon they buffed the succubus and cruror so they would somehow justify their price tag.

But honestly all of the tweaks we do won't matter if one pilot has an offgrid booster and the other doesn't. That just completely breaks all balance in ships.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
Jayai Syndicate
#104 - 2015-09-16 17:33:13 UTC
As much as t3ds are annoying in smalls it's kinda strange to see people demanding a flat out ban for them, but nothing for worms in novices.
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
Pen Is Out
#105 - 2015-09-18 13:19:24 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Stabbed farmers exist, but they aren't ubiquitous like some seem to suggest.

You know what are everywhere? Elite pvp gods in linked, snaked, drugged T3D's and Garmurs/Worms/Orthrus. Let's ban T3D's from small plexes, nerf the Svipul's speed and hit the Mordus/Guristas line hard with the nerf bat like they deserve.

I'd like to see suspect flags for neutrals entering FW plexes and OGB being addressed, but those are both controversial and will be a bit longer in coming. EVERYONE agrees that the Svipul is still OP, and Mordus/Guristas kiters are cancer.


I am sympathetic but I if you ban t3d from smalls it will just be afs - it used to be the hawk. The T3ds do cost more so they should be better. Also although I think they are clearly more powerfull than destroyers and AFs I think they are clearly outclassed by the pirate cruisers and HACs.

Clearly garmurs and worms are overpowered compared to the other pirate ships. But I would just as soon they buffed the succubus and cruror so they would somehow justify their price tag.

But honestly all of the tweaks we do won't matter if one pilot has an offgrid booster and the other doesn't. That just completely breaks all balance in ships.


Aye, after thinking about it a bit I tend to agree. Speed fit kiters with OGB and Snakes are too game-breaking. The implants are more expensive and at greater risk; nearly unusable in null due to bubbles and plenty risky in low due to smartbombers and instalocks. They also don't necessitate paying a second account.

The fundamental question is whether or not you believe that a second account should be a requirement to compete in PvP. The answer seems obvious to me, but this is a topic that is hotly debated. Obviously many people have already bowed to the inevitable and invested in OGB alts, and those people do not relish the thought of losing that advantage.

"Speed creep" is the term I believe. The OGB supported solo/small gang nano-kiting bittervet is the top of the food chain in small scale conflict.
Abannans Forum Alt
Doomheim
#106 - 2015-10-04 22:49:09 UTC
Do you wake up in a cold sweat screaming "HE HAD LINKS! NOOOOOOO"
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#107 - 2015-10-05 15:47:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Here is a link to the link to the minutes on faction war and pve.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6077738#post6077738


Some of the fw highlights:

NPC faction war patrols

Webs in FW missions to dissuade stealth bombers

4 way war

A suspect timer of sorts in plexes

Have your corp or alliance affiliate with a faction that way individual members can join the faction war without the whole corp joining.

No t3s in smalls

I probably forgot something.



Abannans Forum Alt wrote:
Do you wake up in a cold sweat screaming "HE HAD LINKS! NOOOOOOO"




Nah, I just lost allot of interest in playing EVE, to the extent it has such broken mechanics.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#108 - 2015-10-05 19:53:56 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

I'd like to see suspect flags for neutrals entering FW plexes .


On what grounds ?
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc
Templis CALSF
#109 - 2015-10-05 20:48:27 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

I'd like to see suspect flags for neutrals entering FW plexes .


On what grounds ?


1. Be newbie
2. Be poor and ****
3. Neutrals keep crashing your plex and everyone tells you shoot first or you die
4. Keep it up until -5
5. Decide to quit FW
6. Cannot into empire anymore because pirate
7. Have to buy tags/rat in lowsec to even get back to empire space

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!

Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#110 - 2015-10-05 22:05:15 UTC
Yang Aurilen wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

I'd like to see suspect flags for neutrals entering FW plexes .


On what grounds ?


1. Be newbie
2. Be poor and ****
3. Neutrals keep crashing your plex and everyone tells you shoot first or you die
4. Keep it up until -5
5. Decide to quit FW
6. Cannot into empire anymore because pirate
7. Have to buy tags/rat in lowsec to even get back to empire space


While I think FWers seem to be a little bit too "lowsec is all about us" and this suggestion smacks of that a bit, I suppose nobody neutral would really give a toss about a suspect flag anyway, so yeah, fair enough.
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#111 - 2015-10-06 14:25:03 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
While I think FWers seem to be a little bit too "lowsec is all about us" and this suggestion smacks of that a bit, I suppose nobody neutral would really give a toss about a suspect flag anyway, so yeah, fair enough.


Low-sec? No. The war zone? Definitely. Who else should it be about?
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#112 - 2015-10-07 08:34:20 UTC
Cearain wrote:


I probably forgot something.


CCP Affinty wrote:
We're looking at maybe letting people move militias without a standing penalty, but there would be some restriction so as not to allow people to militia hop.
from the minutes

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker

Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
Pen Is Out
#113 - 2015-10-07 23:42:43 UTC
Abannans Forum Alt wrote:
Do you wake up in a cold sweat screaming "HE HAD LINKS! NOOOOOOO"


Links are cancer. Everyone who has a shred of intellectual honesty recognizes this.

They don't bother me much anymore because my corp has lots of OGB alts and I'm familiar with the most egregious OGB abusers in the war zone. It's still really obvious to me and most others that they are broken. Many better known and more skilled/experienced pvp'ers are also making this argument. It's going to happen. My tear bucket is ready.

If you want to learn specifically why links are trash gameplay, you can peruse my post history. You can read Suitonia's article on the topic. You can check Chessur's reddit posting history. Or you can read any of the OGB threads where Crosi circles the wagons around his beloved linked garmur in a futile attempt to ward off the hordes of angry Indians who will continue to press this issue until OGB are "nuked from orbit."

Links have a chilling effect on fight frequency.
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
Pen Is Out
#114 - 2015-10-07 23:53:43 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
Cearain wrote:


I probably forgot something.


CCP Affinty wrote:
We're looking at maybe letting people move militias without a standing penalty, but there would be some restriction so as not to allow people to militia hop.
from the minutes



Veteran wardec spammers hopping militias constantly to farm kills in high sec is already an issue. We don't need more of it.
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
Pen Is Out
#115 - 2015-10-07 23:59:38 UTC
May Arethusa wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
While I think FWers seem to be a little bit too "lowsec is all about us" and this suggestion smacks of that a bit, I suppose nobody neutral would really give a toss about a suspect flag anyway, so yeah, fair enough.


Low-sec? No. The war zone? Definitely. Who else should it be about?


Faction warfare complexes in faction warfare space are indeed about faction warfare participants, methinks.

If you want to use those complexes to generate content by attacking FW players, you are a pirate and your standings should reflect that rather than you being able to exploit the brawl/kite dynamic of plex warfare to force FW players to aggress first and take the standing hit while you preserve your standing and get content.

It's silly that we are the ones who have to take the hit fighting in our own complexes.

There's lots of things in lowsec systems besides complexes. If you want to use those specifically to generate content without subjecting yourself to the other risks of FW, there should be a trade-off.

Neutrals get gate gun protection in lowsec, which can be a huge advantage. There are others.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#116 - 2015-10-08 09:51:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Links have an effect on fight frequency.


FTFY

It is true, last session i played i took on while solo(boosted);

a fight against a gaglle of brave squids, cant remember their exact comp.
a fight against another cal mil corp (Sanctuary's Intelligence Service) of roughly 15 people.
a fight against 20 eve-u slicers with damp support.
a fight against 10 calmil faction frigs, hb's and comets.
a fight aganst 6 recons including, 2 curse, lach, rapier.

Non of which would have happened if i didnt have boosts.

Now its a valid question, should one very expensive pirate faction frig be able to skirmish gangs this large? My ship has 2000hp and one error can spell doom.

Links drive content in many scenarios where they are employed to help the opponent misjudge his chances in the engagement and take a fight where the boosts are providing a capability that is out of the normal envelope, either tank, speed, sig, sensor strength, lock range etc.

All i know is that i had to constantly watch out for exodus as they were equally equipped and flying faster ships than me, In fact, for about an hour their entire alliance were chasing me around and had an insta camp on the out gate to get payback for a couple of plexing alts they lost :).

The alt that helped me more here was the one i had with eyes on that gate, not the boosting alt.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#117 - 2015-10-08 16:21:37 UTC
Crosi

As always you only talk about the fights with gangs of new players you engage who probably know very little about pvp at all. You fail to mention all the ganks from your way overpowered ogb.

In any case, *all* of those pilots likely left with an increased feeling that "solo" or micro gang pvp in eve is best left to tryhards who want to pay for an alt account and drag it around everywhere. That growing feeling is indeed a cancer to eve. Sadly that feeling has plenty of justification.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#118 - 2015-10-08 17:06:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
If i wasnt there, they would have been left with the feeling of jumping into another empty system where there was no action at all and the couple of locals have no interest in fighting blobs of faction frigs.

And tbh, apart from a relatively small number of farmer kills theres not many fights i take where im not outnumbered, often by quite a lot. And quite often when im taking a fight outnumbered i also have to warp in to them. A risk that i accept but would be much closer to suicidal with no boosts, so it would just not happen.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#119 - 2015-10-08 20:10:22 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
If i wasnt there, they would have been left with the feeling of jumping into another empty system where there was no action at all and the couple of locals have no interest in fighting blobs of faction frigs.


It is pretty clear to me that allot more people would be fighting in low sec plexes if it weren't for all the broken ogbs. You might think your presence makes up for that, but we will just have to disagree.

Crosi Wesdo wrote:

And tbh, apart from a relatively small number of farmer kills theres not many fights i take where im not outnumbered, often by quite a lot. And quite often when im taking a fight outnumbered i also have to warp in to them. A risk that i accept but would be much closer to suicidal with no boosts, so it would just not happen.


When you say you are outnumbered are you including your strategic cruiser? I noticed in your last post you refered to your "one very expensive pirate faction frig." But of course that is not all they were fighting. The killboards only show that one pirate faction frigate but there was also a strategic cruiser likely worth more than their entire gang on your side.

When you say it would be "much closer to suicidal" for you to jump in without boosts, you mean it would be much more likely you would die right? Or do you mean you would self destruct if you did not have boosts?

And you know that allot of people stopped jumping into plexes due to boosts. In the past there used to be some chance that you could sling shot a kitey ship so I used to jump in and give it a try, even when I was ab fit. Sometimes I would die sometimes the kiter would die sometimes one of us would warp off. But it always involved a struggle with both pilots applying effort and skill. Now if you jump in on a kitey ship with boosts you have no chance of slingshotting them and you might as well just self destruct to save some time.

I do not blame you for playing the game the way ccp set it up. But it is crazy to think everyone running around in low sec with ogb is actually making more people want to log on and pvp in plexes.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Arla Sarain
#120 - 2015-10-08 21:56:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
i also have to warp in to them. A risk that i accept but would be much closer to suicidal with no boosts, so it would just not happen.

But the risk is inherently due to plex mechanics landing you in a predictable place, not the lack of links. Pretty sure no one at CCP even thought about OGBs when plex mechanics were designed.

To justify links by saying that fighting uphill in a plex would be impossible without them is just implying that links should be mandatory for anyone who doesn't want to obtain plex fights exclusively by occupying the plex first, and instead desires to fight on both opportunities (sitting inside and jumping into).

In this regard, plex mechanics should change to favour neither player instead (through whatever method that would be), rather than give a free pass to those who "picked the right starting pokemon" and punish those who didn't. I highly doubt your decision to buy a link alt was a strategic decision and instead reactive in response to the power creep.