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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Stepping into Faction Warfare

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Author
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#61 - 2015-09-09 16:12:35 UTC
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:
You need to bear in mind that pilots who sign up to FW are signing up to surrender the limited protection of gate guns and station guns in both Low and High Sec. (Yes only to opposing militias, but you have to fly everywhere assuming you can be engaged anywhere and at any time). Therefore FW pilots should not face too much change with the suspect timers except for irritations where some pilots in your fleet are flagged and others are not. Even then you could move your fleet en mass into a Plex at the same time to sync the timer to avoid confusion.

This is a measure that would bug neutrals in the warzone more as it is frankly safer space for them that is being compromised.


Translation: There's not that much difference between some people being able to shoot you, and everyone being able to shoot you. Also, here are some ways you should adapt to the change that's supposed to help you.

It won't bug neutrals at all, they already go suspect in plexes, and all this does is stop them from taking a sec status hit for doing so. What it will do is ensure no neutral fleet ever takes a fight in a plex again. All they need to do is wait long enough for a militia fleet to dive into a plex, wait a jump or two away and engage without worrying about gate guns. Neutrals can adapt to us being permanently flagged as suspects, our solution is to leave FW so we don't need to enter plexes.
Nameira Vanis-Tor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2015-09-09 16:23:44 UTC
May Arethusa wrote:
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:
You need to bear in mind that pilots who sign up to FW are signing up to surrender the limited protection of gate guns and station guns in both Low and High Sec. (Yes only to opposing militias, but you have to fly everywhere assuming you can be engaged anywhere and at any time). Therefore FW pilots should not face too much change with the suspect timers except for irritations where some pilots in your fleet are flagged and others are not. Even then you could move your fleet en mass into a Plex at the same time to sync the timer to avoid confusion.

This is a measure that would bug neutrals in the warzone more as it is frankly safer space for them that is being compromised.


Translation: There's not that much difference between some people being able to shoot you, and everyone being able to shoot you. Also, here are some ways you should adapt to the change that's supposed to help you.

It won't bug neutrals at all, they already go suspect in plexes, and all this does is stop them from taking a sec status hit for doing so. What it will do is ensure no neutral fleet ever takes a fight in a plex again. All they need to do is wait long enough for a militia fleet to dive into a plex, wait a jump or two away and engage without worrying about gate guns. Neutrals can adapt to us being permanently flagged as suspects, our solution is to leave FW so we don't need to enter plexes.


This is no different really than the current state of affairs. Neutral fleets of any size will ignore gate guns anyway as they can tank them.

If you are scouting properly then you will be aware of hostile gate camps and you can choose to either: re-route, take the fight, wait out the timer. Unless you jump blind into a gate camp then the suspect timers should not wreck your fleet.

What would your position be if CCP managed to programme things to ensure a suspect timer is only active whilst in the dead space pocket created by the Plex?
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#63 - 2015-09-09 16:46:29 UTC
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:
This is no different really than the current state of affairs. Neutral fleets of any size will ignore gate guns anyway as they can tank them.

If you are scouting properly then you will be aware of hostile gate camps and you can choose to either: re-route, take the fight, wait out the timer. Unless you jump blind into a gate camp then the suspect timers should not wreck your fleet.

What would your position be if CCP managed to programme things to ensure a suspect timer is only active whilst in the dead space pocket created by the Plex?


I've seen plenty of fleets avoid a fight on a gate because of gate guns, given a choice between taking them yourself and forcing your enemy to take them, which would you choose? Most fleets that roam the warzone are frigate and destroyer gangs with little or no logi, occasionally a cruiser gang with logi that still won't take a fight on a gate who will currently warp to and/or enter a plex to fight you without the hassle of gate aggro. You're asbolutely right though, you'll see them coming with a competent scout, but it still leaves the militia pilots (you know, the people this "fix" is supposed to help) at a significant disadvantage anywhere that isn't a plex.

As for your final question, I'd still oppose it. Any solution that penalises me for doing my job is not a solution. Personally, I'm happy with how things work at the moment, but since this is apparently going to be a thing, I'd rather it wasn't a thing that ruined FW.
Nameira Vanis-Tor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2015-09-09 17:16:50 UTC
May Arethusa wrote:
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:
This is no different really than the current state of affairs. Neutral fleets of any size will ignore gate guns anyway as they can tank them.

If you are scouting properly then you will be aware of hostile gate camps and you can choose to either: re-route, take the fight, wait out the timer. Unless you jump blind into a gate camp then the suspect timers should not wreck your fleet.

What would your position be if CCP managed to programme things to ensure a suspect timer is only active whilst in the dead space pocket created by the Plex?


I've seen plenty of fleets avoid a fight on a gate because of gate guns, given a choice between taking them yourself and forcing your enemy to take them, which would you choose? Most fleets that roam the warzone are frigate and destroyer gangs with little or no logi, occasionally a cruiser gang with logi that still won't take a fight on a gate who will currently warp to and/or enter a plex to fight you without the hassle of gate aggro. You're asbolutely right though, you'll see them coming with a competent scout, but it still leaves the militia pilots (you know, the people this "fix" is supposed to help) at a significant disadvantage anywhere that isn't a plex.

As for your final question, I'd still oppose it. Any solution that penalises me for doing my job is not a solution. Personally, I'm happy with how things work at the moment, but since this is apparently going to be a thing, I'd rather it wasn't a thing that ruined FW.


Neutrals who intend to take fights on gates will have a strategy in mind to neutralise the gate guns in my experience, whether that's hero tackle and bouncing out or logi etc. of course some groups will choose not to engage certain fleets because they don't like the odds etc etc.

If neutrals are roaming in small ships then they are not likely to abandon Plex fighting as that is where their fleet is designed to find content.

Here is how I see criminal flags on plexes enhancing content in the warzones.

FW new bros and some vets need to access high sec for the trade hubs in order to source the ships they then pvp with. If their sec status tanks then they either need to spend ISK on tags to redeem it (ISK that could be spend on more pvp) or spend time away from pvp to do ratting in order to recover the sec status the slow way. When neutrals enter a Plex it is always for combat purposes, a FW pilot who needs to access a trade hub can either damage their sec status and fire first or conceded the first volley to their enemy which is counter intuitive.

If FW pilots who need to access trade hubs are not dropping their sec status as much then that means more ISK spent on and more time spent pvping.

Also if stabbed dplexing farmer wind up with a flag then it will make that way of life harder which hopefully means the people in plexes are more likely the pilots looking for a fight.

In addition some FW pilots take a view of, 'why should I fight neutrals in my Plex? They do not affect the Plex timer and if I want a better chance of winning I have to hit my sec status. I can just go pvp against war targets with no penalty if I'm looking for content'. Criminal timers at least take away the penalty for gaining the initiative on a neutral hopefully encouraging more fights.

Nicholas Goldfinder
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#65 - 2015-09-09 18:29:39 UTC
What is wrong in giving aggression timer, instead of suspect timer?
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#66 - 2015-09-09 19:59:00 UTC
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:
Here is how I see criminal flags on plexes enhancing content in the warzones.

FW new bros and some vets need to access high sec for the trade hubs in order to source the ships they then pvp with. If their sec status tanks then they either need to spend ISK on tags to redeem it (ISK that could be spend on more pvp) or spend time away from pvp to do ratting in order to recover the sec status the slow way. When neutrals enter a Plex it is always for combat purposes, a FW pilot who needs to access a trade hub can either damage their sec status and fire first or conceded the first volley to their enemy which is counter intuitive.

If FW pilots who need to access trade hubs are not dropping their sec status as much then that means more ISK spent on and more time spent pvping.

Also if stabbed dplexing farmer wind up with a flag then it will make that way of life harder which hopefully means the people in plexes are more likely the pilots looking for a fight.

In addition some FW pilots take a view of, 'why should I fight neutrals in my Plex? They do not affect the Plex timer and if I want a better chance of winning I have to hit my sec status. I can just go pvp against war targets with no penalty if I'm looking for content'. Criminal timers at least take away the penalty for gaining the initiative on a neutral hopefully encouraging more fights.


I'm in HS, and there's a neutral in local. He opens a mission, and enters.
I'm in LS, and there's a neutral in local. He scans down a 6/10, and enters.
I'm in NS, and there's a neutral in local. He warps to an anom.

In none of these scenarios do they magically go suspect so you can shoot them. It's up to you to make them engage you. All other considerations aside, explain to me why you believe a FW complex should be any different? I know why I would make you suspect for entering (and as I've already said, I think that's a stupid idea as well), but what makes you believe you should be allowed to engage militia pilots without taking a security status hit?

If you're going to flag everyone, you might as well just take down the gate guns and declare the war zone null-sec.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2015-09-09 22:04:28 UTC
Let's think about a different approach. What is the problem? FW pilots tank sec status if agressing neutrals first within a plex, which is perceived unfair. From what I understand from CCP comments, suspending sec hits in certain regions or for certain player groups would need a major code rewrite. Other discussed fixes sound dirty ... so what about giving FW pilots a privileged access to sec tags? For example Concord could give them a discount in the number needed and fee to boost the status back to 0.

I'm my own NPC alt.

IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Awesome Alliance
#68 - 2015-09-10 07:54:45 UTC  |  Edited by: IbanezLaney
No need for aggression/suspect timers really.

They just need to make killing plex rats give some sec status increase like any other rat.

That way anyone who is actively o-plexing for their militia will easily offset any status hits just from continuing to do what they already do.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2015-09-10 08:11:46 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
No need for aggression/suspect timers really.

They just need to make killing plex rats give some sec status increase like any other rat.

That way anyone who is actively o-plexing for their militia will easily offset any status hits just from continuing to do what they already do.

Great, I (am neutral) would kill plex rats all spare time. Blink

I'm my own NPC alt.

Nameira Vanis-Tor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2015-09-10 09:35:04 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
No need for aggression/suspect timers really.

They just need to make killing plex rats give some sec status increase like any other rat.

That way anyone who is actively o-plexing for their militia will easily offset any status hits just from continuing to do what they already do.


An interesting idea, could cause problems on a lore side though. Your sec status is universal for high sec as it is assigned by CONCORD. Your sec status increases because you kill rats that are a universal threat to the High Sec Empires e.g. Blood Raiers, Angel Cartel, Drones etc.

It would be strange for CONCORD to credit you sec status for destroying empire navy ships defending their own military installations within their own sovereign space surely?
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#71 - 2015-09-10 11:46:59 UTC
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
No need for aggression/suspect timers really.

They just need to make killing plex rats give some sec status increase like any other rat.

That way anyone who is actively o-plexing for their militia will easily offset any status hits just from continuing to do what they already do.


An interesting idea, could cause problems on a lore side though. Your sec status is universal for high sec as it is assigned by CONCORD. Your sec status increases because you kill rats that are a universal threat to the High Sec Empires e.g. Blood Raiers, Angel Cartel, Drones etc.

It would be strange for CONCORD to credit you sec status for destroying empire navy ships defending their own military installations within their own sovereign space surely?



there is allways a way ... just ignore the rolleplaying part
Nameira Vanis-Tor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2015-09-10 12:27:19 UTC
Hidden Snake wrote:
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
No need for aggression/suspect timers really.

They just need to make killing plex rats give some sec status increase like any other rat.

That way anyone who is actively o-plexing for their militia will easily offset any status hits just from continuing to do what they already do.


An interesting idea, could cause problems on a lore side though. Your sec status is universal for high sec as it is assigned by CONCORD. Your sec status increases because you kill rats that are a universal threat to the High Sec Empires e.g. Blood Raiers, Angel Cartel, Drones etc.

It would be strange for CONCORD to credit you sec status for destroying empire navy ships defending their own military installations within their own sovereign space surely?



there is allways a way ... just ignore the rolleplaying part


Well you could have the pressure on the Empires becoming too much and they have to rely on the militias completely to defend their warzone holdings. Then use the Empires new weakness to have every Plex occupied by the territory specific pirate rats who are 'attacking' the installation.

So Angel Cartel rats in Mini Space, Blood Raiders in Amarr, Serpentis in Gallente and Guristas in Caldari.

Then anyone either d-plexing or o-plexing would have to kill the rat, thus gaining sec status and the rat would attack a random capsuleer regardless of faction affiliation.

This then helps the sec status issue, is compatible with the lore and hurts stabbed/afk d-plexers.

Thoughts?
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc
Templis CALSF
#73 - 2015-09-11 13:34:23 UTC
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:
Hidden Snake wrote:
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
No need for aggression/suspect timers really.

They just need to make killing plex rats give some sec status increase like any other rat.

That way anyone who is actively o-plexing for their militia will easily offset any status hits just from continuing to do what they already do.


An interesting idea, could cause problems on a lore side though. Your sec status is universal for high sec as it is assigned by CONCORD. Your sec status increases because you kill rats that are a universal threat to the High Sec Empires e.g. Blood Raiers, Angel Cartel, Drones etc.

It would be strange for CONCORD to credit you sec status for destroying empire navy ships defending their own military installations within their own sovereign space surely?



there is allways a way ... just ignore the rolleplaying part


Well you could have the pressure on the Empires becoming too much and they have to rely on the militias completely to defend their warzone holdings. Then use the Empires new weakness to have every Plex occupied by the territory specific pirate rats who are 'attacking' the installation.

So Angel Cartel rats in Mini Space, Blood Raiders in Amarr, Serpentis in Gallente and Guristas in Caldari.

Then anyone either d-plexing or o-plexing would have to kill the rat, thus gaining sec status and the rat would attack a random capsuleer regardless of faction affiliation.

This then helps the sec status issue, is compatible with the lore and hurts stabbed/afk d-plexers.

Thoughts?


How would that hurt stabbed farmers? They don't shoot back anyways and just roll over and die while rolling in dosh, LP and killrights WHILE maintaining their current sec status.

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!

Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#74 - 2015-09-11 13:45:11 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
No need for aggression/suspect timers really.

They just need to make killing plex rats give some sec status increase like any other rat.

That way anyone who is actively o-plexing for their militia will easily offset any status hits just from continuing to do what they already do.


Only if they remove faction standings loss for killing plex rats.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#75 - 2015-09-15 14:09:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:


A vital point for Sugar Kyle. The reason there is such a need for new members of FW is because there is no real long game. The incentives to stay in FW, after the initial honeymoon, are none other than LP to Isk rewards being high.

Do not stop at enhancing the new capsuleer experience in FW and then ignore the changes that are needed to give reason to stay in FW. I look forward to a thread being posted requesting further ideas on this.



Torbrand Mandero wrote:
As a newbro myself dabbling in FW over the past two weeks, I'll share my notes:.....

  • There seems to be a lack of focus on the actual objective of FW, which is capturing plexes to capture systems. I get this, because lots of people are simply looking for fights. I feel like some plexes take too long to capture. Sitting 20 minutes on a plex in order to capture it isn't fun. .

  • I think this feeling is exactly what many in faction war go through. They think they are signing up to fight for some sort of reason. And then they find they are just pirates that get lp. I certainly went through it when I started faction war. My best friend started in faction war about a month ago and I was talking to him on the phone and he says something like: "you know I noticed no one really cares about actually winning sov. We go into plexes just for fights. I mean its ok and like the pvp but I don't see any difference between us the neutrals we are fighting much of the time."

    I think this sort of dissillusionment is a considerable problem. If faction war is to remain piracy with lp bonuses and station lock out negatives that would be unfortunate but ok. Just don't make people think it is more than that.

    The current plex mechanics have a lot going for them. They may very well be one of the best small scale pvp mechanics in the game. But they do need some tweaks to really make gaining territory for your faction fun.

    I posted a thread in features and ideas that involves that topic. I won't copy them here because they are not all for new players. They are for all fw players who think it might be good to fight for sov.

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6038178#post6038178

    Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

    Crosi Wesdo
    War and Order
    #76 - 2015-09-15 14:24:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
    The SOV system itself isnt and should not be the reason for being in FW imo, it is there to drive conflict and it does so perfectly well. If you start pushing SOV in someones home system its amazing how quickly everyone there starts to care about it.

    The fact that no one cares about SOV in strategically useless non-station system doesnt strike me as a fault in the mechanics. But even those systems play a role in any factions ambition to hit higher tiers.

    The level of tier rewards is certainly open for discussion.

    The only thing that should make taking systems fun is watching your enemy fail to defend a system. If no one does defend it, you still get the reward of an extra system towards your tier but the fun will be deferred to a point where you decide to attack something that someone else cares about. This is simply because in an EVE SOV war, owning the system is not the fun part, taking it from someone is.

    As for plex times. This is something a lot of people struggle with in EVE. Many do not appreciates that it takes time for things to happen because you are relying on other people to notice you, then respond. The length of time to complete a plex will not effect the volume of conflict. In fact i would expect that shorter plex timers will result in more chasing than fighting.

    I know you would love plexes to broadcast faction wide that they are under attack with player names and ship types and i think you even mentioned once, what their fit is. But lets be realistic, with experience and activitiy this all comes naturally. Encouraging people to stay docked until they get a notification about something they care about is still a terrible idea. If you care about something, you should be undocked generating this intelligence yourself.

    The biggest thing players can do to influence the amount of conflict a plex generates for them is completely in their control. Its not a question of mechanics, its a question of where they choose to plex.

    As for this thread, until cerain posted i think all the basics were covered.
    Cearain
    Plus 10 NV
    It Burns When I'm PvPing
    #77 - 2015-09-15 17:18:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
    Crosi Wesdo wrote:
    The SOV system itself isnt and should not be the reason for being in FW imo,


    Ok thanks for your opinion, it is valid, and shared by many. But understand that allot of people do want fighting for sov to be the reason to join faction war. (although many of them are no longer in fw because fighting for sov is not fun) The thing is, CCP can make both sides happy. They can improve the sov system to make fighting for it a valid reason to be in fw. Those who are in faction war for other reasons can just enjoy having more pilots involved in the game. If you want to roam around and do random pvp with the occasional system push you still can. It's a win win.


    Crosi Wesdo wrote:

    The fact that no one cares about SOV in strategically useless non-station system doesnt strike me as a fault in the mechanics. But even those systems play a role in any factions ambition to hit higher tiers.


    The problem with ambitions to hit higher tiers is that in order to achieve those ambitions you have to do boring grinds. Unfit frigates in defensive plexes and multiple alts in o-plexes. CCP can tweak the mechanics to change this so that fw occupancy warfare involves much more exciting and challenging pvp.

    Crosi Wesdo wrote:

    The level of tier rewards is certainly open for discussion.


    I agree its open for discussion. But I doubt people leave faction war because the rewards aren't good enough. The problem is there are no long term goals that are fun to achieve. If fighting for sov was fun CCP wouldn't even need to add rewards. I think that is what they envisioned when fw came out and there were no rewards. Now CCP gave tons of rewards and people can't see past the isk to understand if the sov war is actually fun to wage.
    Crosi Wesdo wrote:

    The only thing that should make taking systems fun is watching your enemy fail to defend a system. .


    At this point you are telling everyone they shouldn't find anything fun other than what you find fun. As for me I do not think it is fun when the enemy fails to defend their system. It's boring.

    Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

    Cearain
    Plus 10 NV
    It Burns When I'm PvPing
    #78 - 2015-09-15 17:19:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
    Crosi Wesdo wrote:

    As for plex times. This is something a lot of people struggle with in EVE. Many do not appreciates that it takes time for things to happen because you are relying on other people to notice you, then respond. The length of time to complete a plex will not effect the volume of conflict. In fact i would expect that shorter plex timers will result in more chasing than fighting..


    I appreciate this very much. That is why in order to make the sov war more fun and exciting to wage, I recomend giving players better intel tools so that they will respond quicker and we will end up with more pvp per plex.

    It is likely true that shortening plex timers would increase running and decrease pvp. That is why I don't recommend shortening the plex time but increasing the vp gained per plex. Like it used to be before inferno. For those who don't know, increasing the vp per plex would mean finishing it would have a larger effect on the contested level.

    Crosi Wesdo wrote:

    I know you would love plexes to broadcast faction wide that they are under attack with player names and ship types and i think you even mentioned once, what their fit is. But lets be realistic, with experience and activitiy this all comes naturally. Encouraging people to stay docked until they get a notification about something they care about is still a terrible idea. If you care about something, you should be undocked generating this intelligence yourself.

    The biggest thing players can do to influence the amount of conflict a plex generates for them is completely in their control. Its not a question of mechanics, its a question of where they choose to plex.



    Ok first I never said give the fit away. But I am in favor of better intel about plexes being attacked. This was requested by faction war players when Ank was still in faction war. The intel could be by map, or otherwise, just so it is accessible and in real time. More intel means the ability to give a quicker pvp response. Better pvp response means fw sov war becomes more fun and exciting.

    Of course, I also never suggested people should stay docked. It should be intel that they can view while in space.

    Yes of course we can choose to plex now. But it is insanely boring, so very few bother other than to get fights or farm lp. You can keep blaming the players and not the mechanics. But it's really not the players fault that this is so boring, and anyway the players aren't about to suddenly change. It is up to ccp to make the mechanics of fw sov warfare more exciting.

    Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

    Arla Sarain
    #79 - 2015-09-15 17:35:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
    Crosi Wesdo wrote:
    The SOV system itself isn't and should not be the reason for being in FW imo, it is there to drive conflict and it does so perfectly well
    Sounds self contradictory and somewhat toxic - what SHOULD the reason for being in FW be then, if not for sov? If it's for the PvP, there are much better prospects than FW, for a broad variety of reasons. If its LP, then FW just breeds aversion to risk and encounters. Not saying there is a right or wrong - just that each of these choices will bring out certain behaviours that we may or may not like/want to be part of FW.
    Crosi Wesdo wrote:
    As for plex times. This is something a lot of people struggle with in EVE. Many do not appreciates that it takes time for things to happen because you are relying on other people to notice you, then respond. The length of time to complete a plex will not effect the volume of conflict. In fact i would expect that shorter plex timers will result in more chasing than fighting.
    One of the primary endorsements to be in FW is the advertised "earn as you go and kind of PvP" method of wealth accumulation, which is attractive to PvP focused newbros because it supposedly lets them kill two birds with one stone. Except the system does not successfully achieve to fuel itself with a need for combat, in fact it does the opposite. Farmers are one thing, but even players that desire fights freuqently would prefer to just blueball.

    Long plex timers are one of few reasons for that. The discouraging mechanic is manifested when you lose a plex fight, because you lose twice, the hull and the control over the plex. Control over the plex is partially measured in time invested. You could argue one can reship and comeback, but the time will already be lost and there is no guarantee that you will recover the plex ownership. This puts a strain on the plex occupant, where he must toss up the value of the time invested plus his potential hull loss against the value of the somewhat vaguely possible victory in the advancing encounter imposed by the guy on the other side of the gate.

    For whatever reason, there exists a mechanic that may cause the assailant to lose interest in occupying a partially run plex (if only all of us had the fortitude that Moglarr has). On what occasion is it not the smarter decision to employ a strategy that makes this happen? You don't lose the hull, and any time spent on warping in/out seems fictional in comparison to the time spent orbiting the beacon and spamming D-SCAN whilst waiting for a favourable match-up. Losing the hull may sound trivial in value (and likely is in the grand scheme of things), but you mentioned yourself once in the farmer discussion, that the pain is in the logistics, which never gets better, even when "living close to the fight", because that is still docking/undocking/gate jumping/warping to safe/d-scan for encounters. And the more interest you demonstrate, the more reasons you give your previous opponent to stay "and fight and have fun" which to most feels more like harassment.

    To end the rambling, the justification for shorter plex timers is that with a lower time investment comes less attachment. That's not to say that the chasing you mention is not a risk of this. But with less time invested lost due to a PvP loss and consequent loss of plex ownership has the opportunity to inspire a more laid back attitude towards losing a PvP encounter in general, hence encouraging more people to stay and fight.

    For example quarter the timers (and rewards) for a novice; if one is successful in finishing the first 3 quarters and is contested on the last quarter, with comparison to current timers, it is obvious that in the latter scenario he stands to lose more. Whilst the negligible commitment in the former case is grounds for "giving it a try".

    This can be argued both ways, like, a bigger risk/reward is what inspires people to stay and fight, which may be true, but the current evidence points to the opposite, since people demonstrate a lack of commitment to giving the contestant a reason to go at it.

    Another positive point with shorter timers is rolling them back becomes less painful. For the same quarter timer, rolling back and closing slightly less than 5 minutes is far less agonising than slightly less than 20...

    On the flip side, it does introduce an all-or-nothing pressure for the groups that compete over the vulnerability bar. The timers now allow for mounting a counter-attack in the event of a loss. Shorter timers will likely prevent that from being a concern. Shorter timers will also likely have to be followed with a reduction in VP contribution, which will reduce the value of losing a plex in the context of system control.
    Crosi Wesdo wrote:
    The biggest thing players can do to influence the amount of conflict a plex generates for them is completely in their control. Its not a question of mechanics, its a question of where they choose to plex.
    The majority don't actually go to a plex to get conflict. It's just a side bonus, and only in the event of a favourable match up. And that's something that should change. People should go plexing to get a fight.

    EDIT: I did a thing with the keyboard and the writing and then the POST button pressing
    I probably shouldn't have
    Crosi Wesdo
    War and Order
    #80 - 2015-09-16 00:30:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
    Cerain, you assert that CCP can make fighting for SOV in a system no one cares about can be fun but the only suggestion you have ever put forward is for all player driven Intel to be replaced with NPC Intel. There is a blatant vacuum of reasoning here.

    If the defender doesnt care about a system then capturing that system will not be fun. It may be profitable, which is the trade off. the old school SOV warriors are no longer with us because its too hard for a small number of people to keep their boot on the neck of the opposing faction with almost no effort like it was in the past iterations. Good riddance is what i say.

    The new mechanics are awesome because there is no realistic way that even an overwhelming force can keep 100% control over an organised opposition.

    There is nothing CCP can do to make SOV interesting in a system that both sides care nothing for. Just asserting that "CCP can improve the FW SOV game simply by making it 1000% better" is outrageously vacuous and the main reason i respond to you with utter disregard.

    Grinds are not unique to EVE. In fact they are a necessary evil for every MMO i have ever seen. The benefit of EVE is that grinding is a choice.

    There are no arbitrary long term goals in FW because there are no arbitrary long term goals in EVE. Goals are entirely player driven. While there are goal posts, its up to people if they want to score.

    I am not telling people how to play, im just saying that expecting a system push to be fun in a system where there is literally no opposition is a failure of expectations.

    As for better intel and plexes being boring, the characters i plex with can barely finish a plex without 2/3 attempts from local WT or PIES trying to kill them. Obviously, at this point not that many folk attack my main, but because of that i have adjusted. The issues with people avoiding my main is relatively rare among the newer people this thread is addressed toward.


    Aria, historically the reason for being in FW is PvP. TBH, even SOV is a very minor factor in why people fight compared to SOV-tied station lockouts which is the major conflict driver in FW. In my limited experience there is no better arena than FW for PVP, it would be interesting what you would assert as an alternative, specially with regards to newer players.

    Now if we want to talk about self contradictory, in one paragraph you suggest that people in FW are "just bread for aversion to risk and encounters to farm LP" and in the next you laud FW and its LP mechanic as it is "attractive to PvP focused newbros because it supposedly lets them kill two birds with one stone".

    You cant have your cake and eat it too. Its much simpler to acknowledge that the current mechanics can be farmed to some extent but also drive a huge amount of combat for those that have the notion to look for it.

    As for balance yes, someone who is offensively plexing will find reships/winning individual fights harder than an organised defense. I really struggle to identify a problem with this. People choosing to sustain an engagement or bail for an easier life cannot be addressed with mechanics.

    You say that lower plex timers give less attachment as though that is a benefit. lets remember that some of these plexes are being run in systems where people have all their assets. On a macro level the system already benefits the attacker, since there is no goal post where a system is 'DEFENDED', there is only the grit and determination of the defender to make the attacker withdraw.

    In your final paragraph you say that most people are just farmers, as though mechanics should be considered in their favor?

    In short, your post was eclectic and confusing to the point where i have no idea what your vision for FW is;. Unlike cerain who has a horrible vision for EVE FW.