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New defensive for freighters / jump freighters
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#41 - 2015-09-13 07:53:51 UTC
Roll The problem is that you are not bumped "straight". And every new bump comes from a slightly (or largely) different angle, making it nigh impossible to "stay in front of the bumped ship". Prove me wrong. Blink

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Mag's
Azn Empire
#42 - 2015-09-13 08:07:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Lim Hiaret wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
*sigh* A freighter cannot warp upwards just like that after it got bumped. That's not how it works. Show me a video that proves otherwise.


You can warp to a target that is directly in front of your ship as you are both aligned and past minimum speed..


By "in front" you mean the direction the ship is moving or the direction it is facing?
The direction a ship is facing means nothing to the server, in regards to the direction it is moving.
Just as you will get into warp as fast facing the opposite direction from a standstill, as you would if you were visually facing that warp to point.

On Eve servers ships are modelled as vectors, and the actual orientation of the engines has no relevance to the direction in which thrust is applied.

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NearNihil
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
#43 - 2015-09-13 08:22:01 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Roll The problem is that you are not bumped "straight". And every new bump comes from a slightly (or largely) different angle, making it nigh impossible to "stay in front of the bumped ship". Prove me wrong. Blink

I can confirm warping to a fleetmate who is in the proper direction and distance from a bumped freighter works. It took about fifteen minutes of trying to get the proper alignment though, it's not like it's a foolproof method.

I would prove it but it prevented a killmail rather than creating one so v0v. It did provide some amusing chat in local though.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#44 - 2015-09-13 11:58:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Lim Hiaret wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Lim Hiaret wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
why are people allergic to just flying safe and/or with friends?

if i can get a JF into jita under war dec you should be fine avoiding gankers


May I refer you to this episode of The Meta Show with Grath Telkin. About 25min in.
When a player, who is certainly pro. in this game, cannot in any way avoid a freighter loss in highsec,
than I would call this unballanced. Even with a reasonable sized guard you would not be able to get your freighter through, because CONCORD protects bumpers in highsec. The only reasonable option here is not to fly freighters in highsec. "Emergent gameplay" gets you quite far but at some point it gets retarted. Bumpers should get a suspect flag so that your guard can do something. Alternative, make it possible to wardec NPC corps and/or allow friendly fire in NPC corps.


A single web gets a freighter into warp before a bumping ship has time to reach it.


Apparently not



This is true you can't always get webs on but you can always pop bumping ships and I have not come across a fleet that could take out my dead space providence under guardian reps


If the enemy fleet is more prepared than yours yes you are probably screwed but that's pvp anyplace in eve from market trading in jita to blob fights in null

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2015-09-13 12:25:48 UTC
There is a problem here, but it has nothing to do with freighters specifically. The problem is that player A can prevent player B from warping away indefinitely without player B being able to do anything about it.

Fact of the matter is that player A is performing an action that would otherwise be punishable by CONCORD (warp disruption in High-Sec). But because of clever use of game mechanics, CONCORD doesn't intervene yet player B is still prevented from warping.

On the other side is the player who is stuck. Even if he did have weapons with him, he would not be able to use them because CONCORD would destroy his ship since there is no legal reason to attack the bumper under the current system.

Right now bumping can NOT be countered in a 1 on 1 situation. And anything that can not be countered is inherently bad game design in a game like EVE Online. I'm all for not having 100% safety for freighters. But on the other side needs to be that bumpers and gankers don't have a 100% chance of keeping a target from warping without CONCORD intervention. Simple as that.

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Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#46 - 2015-09-13 12:26:45 UTC
I'd be happy with this provided it came with a suspect flag...

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Lugh Crow-Slave
#47 - 2015-09-13 12:35:05 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
There is a problem here, but it has nothing to do with freighters specifically. The problem is that player A can prevent player B from warping away indefinitely without player B being able to do anything about it.

Fact of the matter is that player A is performing an action that would otherwise be punishable by CONCORD (warp disruption in High-Sec). But because of clever use of game mechanics, CONCORD doesn't intervene yet player B is still prevented from warping.

On the other side is the player who is stuck. Even if he did have weapons with him, he would not be able to use them because CONCORD would destroy his ship since there is no legal reason to attack the bumper under the current system.

Right now bumping can NOT be countered in a 1 on 1 situation. And anything that can not be countered is inherently bad game design in a game like EVE Online. I'm all for not having 100% safety for freighters. But on the other side needs to be that bumpers and gankers don't have a 100% chance of keeping a target from warping without CONCORD intervention. Simple as that.



No it can be counted 1 on 1 just not if you are in a freighter and guess what freighters are capital ships they are not built to be self sufficient but rather to rely on a sport fleet so you should not ever be in a 1 on 1 situation

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Ben Ishikela
#48 - 2015-09-13 13:10:49 UTC
Just remove Jumpfreighters already and the add a new T2Freighter that can use MJD!
Problem just got more interesting. Twisted

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
Lim Hiaret
Hiaret Family
#49 - 2015-09-13 13:14:56 UTC
Mag's wrote:
On Eve servers ships are modelled as vectors, and the actual orientation of the engines has no relevance to the direction in which thrust is applied.


Sounds like ships are actually modelled as bubbles without a front and a back Roll
Black Pedro
Mine.
#50 - 2015-09-13 13:31:14 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Right now bumping can NOT be countered in a 1 on 1 situation. And anything that can not be countered is inherently bad game design in a game like EVE Online. I'm all for not having 100% safety for freighters. But on the other side needs to be that bumpers and gankers don't have a 100% chance of keeping a target from warping without CONCORD intervention. Simple as that.
Again, you should take your tears over bumping to the appropriate thread. Bumping, and the vulnerability to bumping large ships have is an emergent property of the game mechanics and a valid tactic as ruled on by CCP.

Keeping a player bumped indefinitely requires constant attention (or multiple players) - it is not 100% and can be escaped from. But this is besides the point: large ships are suppose to be vulnerable. They are suppose to have support fleets. CCP is not going to give you an 'I-get-out-of-PvP' button so you can fly your capital ships with impunity. They are all quite powerful, so their vulnerability to smaller ships is very much intended.

This is why proposals like the OP will never be implemented. There are counters to bumping - flying DSTs is one of the main ones that come to mind. Use them, or fly your freighter and accept the risk that someone might bump tackling your large, lumbering hauler and plan accordingly. Simple as that.

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Why Do They Gank?
Lim Hiaret
Hiaret Family
#51 - 2015-09-13 13:41:33 UTC
^ Bumping is a valid tactic, but should CONCORD protect it? Because of CONCORD there is no risk on the side of the attacker. If I recall it right, there was a time, when GMs did act against it. Problem is, as soon as you ask for a ransom they would let you go with it.

@OP sorry man. Not intended...
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#52 - 2015-09-13 13:56:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Not in the slightest. The freighter is afterwards bumped off the gate grid.

No good freighter bumper bumps from behind, stop telling lies. You of all people should know that best. All good freighter bumpers bump from the top or bottom, which destroys any form of alignment a freighter could possibly have.


Move your small fast ship in the direction the freighter is getting bumped.

Why did I even need to explain that to you?

Let me start with this.
I don't fly freighters.
I don't care if there are gankers or not.
And I don't care if there is just one more nerf or not.
So what follows is just observations of ganks in progress and my own experimentation's to try and uncover the truth of these arguments.

A good bumper can keep a target from warping virtually indefinitely and only a mistake by the bumper will allow you to escape.

A well coordinated team of bumpers is a virtual guarantee that the target cannot warp away.

The small fast ship idea is a good theory but fails miserably in application. A skilled bumper an even more so a team of them can keep the target ship going in different directions over time so that positioning that warp to target is impossible.

Again just my observations, experiments and comments on this.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#53 - 2015-09-13 13:57:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Lim Hiaret wrote:
^ Bumping is a valid tactic, but should CONCORD protect it?
Probably. CONCORD is there to punish capsuleers when they shoot each other. Why should you get a free pass to shoot someone for just impeding your navigation?

The point is moot though as it would be impossible to code. If you flagged bumpers, gankers would spend their time purposely trying to get ships to run into them so they could gank them free of a CONCORD response. Even if your detection algorithm was 99.9% effective, that 0.1% who managed to accidentally flag themselves and get destroyed by gankers with no CONCORD response would provide such a torrent of tears as compared to those currently shed over bumping now.

Lim Hiaret wrote:
Because of CONCORD there is no risk on the side of the attacker. If I recall it right, there was a time, when GMs did act against it. Problem is, as soon as you ask for a ransom they would let you go with it.
Bumpers risk an expensive, untanked pirate battleship just like anyone else who undocks in this game. Occasionally they are even called on it.

If you want bumpers to have risk, then provide it yourself like the developers intend. Don't expect the game to hold your hand and save your bacon every time you make a poor decision - your safety is up to you.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
baltec1
Bat Country
The Initiative.
#54 - 2015-09-13 15:09:34 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Not in the slightest. The freighter is afterwards bumped off the gate grid.

No good freighter bumper bumps from behind, stop telling lies. You of all people should know that best. All good freighter bumpers bump from the top or bottom, which destroys any form of alignment a freighter could possibly have.


Move your small fast ship in the direction the freighter is getting bumped.

Why did I even need to explain that to you?

Let me start with this.
I don't fly freighters.
I don't care if there are gankers or not.
And I don't care if there is just one more nerf or not.
So what follows is just observations of ganks in progress and my own experimentation's to try and uncover the truth of these arguments.

A good bumper can keep a target from warping virtually indefinitely and only a mistake by the bumper will allow you to escape.

A well coordinated team of bumpers is a virtual guarantee that the target cannot warp away.

The small fast ship idea is a good theory but fails miserably in application. A skilled bumper an even more so a team of them can keep the target ship going in different directions over time so that positioning that warp to target is impossible.

Again just my observations, experiments and comments on this.


Web the freighter and warp to the guy in front of it. Or bring logi if avoiding being bumped is too much to handle, they cannot gank what they cannot kill.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#55 - 2015-09-13 15:32:16 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:

Again just my observations, experiments and comments on this.


All wrong. Not just, like, a little bit wrong, either.

Dead wrong.

Dead, lying on a gurney with a toe tag wrong.

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One of ours, ten of theirs.

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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#56 - 2015-09-13 16:09:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Arya Regnar
Lim Hiaret wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
why are people allergic to just flying safe and/or with friends?

if i can get a JF into jita under war dec you should be fine avoiding gankers


May I refer you to this episode of The Meta Show with Grath Telkin. About 25min in.
When a player, who is certainly pro. in this game, cannot in any way avoid a freighter loss in highsec,
than I would call this unballanced. Even with a reasonable sized guard you would not be able to get your freighter through, because CONCORD protects bumpers in highsec. The only reasonable option here is not to fly freighters in highsec. "Emergent gameplay" gets you quite far but at some point it gets retarted. Bumpers should get a suspect flag so that your guard can do something. Alternative, make it possible to wardec NPC corps and/or allow friendly fire in NPC corps.

Implying Grath Telkin has any clue in how to do highsec business.

In highsec he is just as scrub as the rest of you.

And I have a feeling that you implied that he alone should be able to stop it from happening.
Code gank fleets have 15-40 people in them, it isn't 1v1.

And if 40 people shouldn't be able to win vs a single guy then you need to go see someone to check if everything is alright.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#57 - 2015-09-13 16:16:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Sobaan Tali
Honest question; How many of you forgot to take your meds?

Edit: Btw, if you guys really need something to keep you busy instead of coming up with these redundant ideas, download this, make something, then post it here on the forums to show us all what you made...

http://ldd.lego.com/en-us/

There, now go nuts!Blink

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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#58 - 2015-09-13 16:20:45 UTC
admiral root wrote:


Concord don't protect anyone.

This is the part that many people tend to forget all the time.

Concord doesn't protect, they don't serve.

Concord punishes.

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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2015-09-13 18:16:03 UTC
Jump freighters should be nerfed. It'll increase the profit margin of freighting, and if the margin is increased far enough, actual escort services may become a decent way to make money.

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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#60 - 2015-09-13 18:57:05 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Jump freighters should be nerfed. It'll increase the profit margin of freighting, and if the margin is increased far enough, actual escort services may become a decent way to make money.

They are fine as they are the only issue is that in highsec you have no way of stopping them from just jumping out if theres a bumper somewhere.

No spoolup required and no indentification when it will happen.

The only JFs that die in highsec are to wardecs killrights and idiots that don't have an outcyno ready.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.