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A question dealing with the 'Free-miner' haters

Author
Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-01-02 12:29:52 UTC
Free ore? Nice, them may give it to me...............Big smile
Ameron Phinard
#22 - 2012-01-02 21:22:10 UTC
Tramp Oline wrote:
The money that I pay is to keep my subscription going for the month. I'm going to pay the same amount of money whether I spin my ship in the station all day or mine. Anything I do in game is free to me. The only thing that costs me is my subscription.


Fine if you actually enjoy mining, but it's a terrible waste of time otherwise.
dukonata
Southern Cross Mining
#23 - 2012-01-03 01:35:46 UTC

I do a bit of everything in the game and what i really hate is when i see people come on here and post that what I enjoy doing in a sandbox game is wrong.

I thought the whole idea of a sandbox game was to do whatever you want. with no true end game content like they have in other MMOs you set yourself your own goals. Some people set themself a goal to PVP, others to clear missions as quickly as they can and others set it to be able to mine and produce things from start to finish.

Just because people have set their own goals different to what others have doesn't make it wrong, just means what they want from this sandbox game is differentto what you want. If people who can't understand that or don't like should head back to other MMOs where everything and everyone is the same.
Covert Kitty
SRS Industries
#24 - 2012-01-03 02:00:04 UTC
Quote:
PvPers are always jealous of miners and industrialists. Miners and industrialists are always rich and PvPers are always broke.

Wow... so much fail in so few words, if that was your intent I must applaud you.

Firstly, unless you have an army of bots, nobody has ever gotten rich mining (and even if you had bots, there are better targets than that). Secondly, if someone considers oneself an "industrialist" chances are they are they aren't very well off, lacking a more full picture of where manufacturing fits in with other market activities. Manufacturing is merely the ability to turn one thing into another, just one of many tools a trader has in his arsenal. A common misconception is that the act of manufacturing itself is always profitable, the truth being that this is usually not the case.

The rich in Eve generally fall in these categories:

1: "Market Activities", scamming, manipulations, speculation, old fashioned station/region trading, etc
2: High end PvE grinders (optimized C5/6, nullsec sanctums, plexes, etc)
3: Meta gaming services (EoH, 3rd party, website services, alliance conquests/politics/theft, etc)
4: Botting low end activities like mining, missioning, & ratting (obviously not advocating this, but it is true sadly)

(imo)
Rich: 100bil+
Super Rich: 500bil+

That said, having tons of isk isn't that important if your a dedicated pvp'er. There are many who just make what they need to buy their next ship and go roaming. I respect that way of thinking a great deal to be honest.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#25 - 2012-01-03 04:12:56 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
I can see both points of view. And I wholeheartedly agree that, whether you are in-game or in real life, you need to be enjoying what you are doing at work and/or home.
BUT on balance I have to side with those that state 'mined ore is NOT free'. If for no other reason than that it is purely a matter of logic. Those industrialists who work on the principle that mined ore IS free and either sell that ore on for less isk or manufacture goods and sell those on at an undervalued rate do indeed destroy the econony of New Eden. There is no question that is a one hundred percent cast iron factAttention

A lot of people keep confusing "free" with "worthless".
Mined ore is (or at least can be) "technically free" (as in, not having paid any ISK for it, or at least negligible amounts of ISK), but then again, so is ISK itself and just about anything else inside EVE, so the term "free" has very little practical meaning in EVE.
What mined ore isn't is worthless (or worth less than market price), so turning it into something worth less than its original worth is a net asset value loss, and therefore kind of silly (with very few exceptions regarding certain unusual relations between speed of mining vs speed of selling minerals vs speed of selling manufactured items).

However, I would NOT agree that they're destroying the economy, not as long as more mathematically-aware people stick around. What they're actually end up doing most of the time practically is donating ISK they don't realize they had to people who know how to value stuff properly.
Sure, it might shut out a small portion of profit-minded manufacturers from those particular items, but then again, if such below-cost (or very close to at-cost) items persist on that market, the profit from manufacturing those items would have not been worth bothering to begin with, so nothing of value was actually lost.
If somebody puts up an item below mineral value, a trader or somebody skilled in reprocessing should shortly pop up and either relist the item at a price closer to the usual market levels or reprocess it and sell the minerals individually. Either way, the original "MIMAF" producer loses the potential ISK while the trader gains it (minus applicable NPC fees and taxes), and the consumer gets a nice enough price - everybody else wins except the original MIMAF manufacturer.
Arcathra
Technodyne Ltd.
#26 - 2012-01-03 08:51:58 UTC
It's not that much about the time invested, it is more about the value of the ore.

Let's say I'm producing Rifters. To apply simple logic I can assume that the selling price for the raw minerals that I need to produce the Rifter is lower than the end product, the Rifter itself. I should get an added value by bulding something of those minerals. People who buy minerals and produce said Rifters "live" by that added value. They put additional "work" into raising the value, like buying and researching blueprints, invest time to produce the Rifters, transport them around to trade hubs etc.
The "ores are free"-people are hurting the producers. If I look at the market, the Rifter is sold under the value of the ore that is needed to produce it. That means it isn't profitable to buy minerals and build them. And for someone who mines his ore by himself it is also more profitable to just sell the minerals on the market instead to produce them, otherwise he would make a loss.

I honestly don't know if that is the specific problem with the Rifter or if this practice has such a big impact on the market as a whole. Just an example to demonstrate the problem and to show why some people tend to dislike the "ores are free"-people. There are some people who have chosen the industrial and trade part of the game as their main play style. It is not that hard to imagine that they are not amused, isn't it?
The funny part is, and that is the reason why many industrial players are shaking their heads, that the "ores are free" people hurt their own income with that. They could make more ISK out of their ores/minerals with a lot less effort.
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-01-03 09:29:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarnis McPieksu
This effect is caused by people who are bad at math and/or lazy and/or conditioned by other MMOs.

They can't be bothered to do the math, they just work on basic assumptions on how MMO crafting systems work.

In the past, they have learned that in MMOs you make money by gathering resources and then crafting something that people buy.

So they go and buy a blueprint for something that they think people will buy (Rifter is a good entry level BPO and the person in question can probably use Rifters himself and these guys love when they can craft some "free" stuff for themselves on the side). So with the BPO on hand, the noob goes like this; "hmm to manufacture this requires this and that and that material... okay, I can mine most of this stuff here in highsec. I buy the high ends and mine the rest, make Rifters and PROFIT!!!!!"

And funnily enough, at the end of the day when those Rifters sell, the guy gets ISK. He is happy and keeps doing what makes him ISK. He mines, refines, buys a bit of high ends and manufactures more Rfiters, selling them and "raking it in".

The point of FAIL here is that he never bothers to (or is incapable) do math and figure out how much the input materials for the manufacturing process are on the market. It doesn't even cross his mind that the Rifters sold on the market by others (which he ends up undercutting to make sales) may be priced at below what he would get if he had just sold the ore or minerals he mined. "That would be just silly. Why would the market price of Rifter be lower than the materials?"

...and the scrapmetal reprocessors and users of Rifters thank these idiots for providing below-cost ships to fly and/or reprocess. Usually the price hovers just above the "worth reprocessing for raw minerals" level and well below the "cost of building if materials bought from sell orders".

Same actually extends to large parts of T1 manufacturing - more expensive the blueprint, less of this you end up seeing but even with battlecruisers and battleships you see prices that are usually "at loss" with unresearched blueprint. So whoever is manufacturing these is churning them out from minerals obtained through lowball buy-orders (some hauling effort required) and using a well-researched blueprint. He still makes a profit, but the margins are razor-thin. On the other hand, once you get everything set up, it is "easy ISK" that keeps on flowing with fairly minimal gameplay effort.
Duncan Mileghere
S.T.A.R. Syndicate Germany
#28 - 2012-01-03 13:58:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Duncan Mileghere
J Kunjeh wrote:
Don't these same whiners realize that playing Eve in any way represents a real life lost opportunity cost? Think of all the useful things one could be doing for themselves and humanity if they weren't wasting time devising how to build larger wallets in a stupid game! I mean, they might actually figure out how to make their RL wallets phatter if they put the same energy into RL as they did into Eve. Talk about high opportunity cost!


This is probably the best statement on this subject I've ever seen.

I might add that somebody who sees minerals as free doesn't have to be bad at math, he or she simply doesn't care. I'm a trader and math student in real life, *I* do care but I would never criticize others for their way of playing this game. It's up to them and if they enjoy Eve that way it's fine. Who are we to judge how others should play this game?

It's probably simply that feeling of having "created" something ingame, that makes it more appealing to them, rather than just selling their minerals for a higher profit.
Zhu Khan
Khanid Arbitrage Incorporated
#29 - 2012-01-03 16:41:25 UTC
I view free-mining as a glorious form of PVP trading. It's the industrial corrolary of a suicide gank (although smart players with good refining skills can use it to their advantage).
Arkon Olacar
Avalanche.
Fraternity.
#30 - 2012-01-03 22:07:12 UTC
Okay, I am a newb, so I obviously havent as much experience in these matters as all of you, but here is my opinion on this:

I can spend all day mining pyro in my mining frigate of noobery, hauling it in my hauler of noobishness, and make about 1 mil isk per haulage trip back to base, which takes over an hour to mine. I can then refresh the can and continue mining... and continue mining... and keep mining. At the end of the day, I can make about 10 mil isk, depending how hard I try, whether there is an orca around etc etc. The next day I login and start mining again. And the next day.

Or

I can mine for a few hours in my mining frigate of noobery, haul it back, reprocess with very inefficient refining skills, manufacture some basic t1 modules with horrendous ineffienciency - the blueprints are so demeaning, pointing out how wasteful you are being - haul them to a minor trade hub in my industrial of noobishness, and sell for about 70% of the value of the ore if Im lucky.

One of them makes the most isk, the other makes me actually engage with the game. Im am still getting a fair bit of isk, considering that the noob shopping list is pocket change to 95% of players, and I am enjoying playing the game.

Could I maximise my time and make more isk? Yes, of course I could. I have an IQ over my shoe size, I realise that I could squeeze a fraction more isk by simply selling the ore raw. Do I care? No.

I am aiming at being a 'real' industrialist/manufacturer, so some of my early skills have reduced the loss in 'potential isk' to the point where refining ore and selling the minerals resulted in only a loss of 0.8% of the potential value of the ore after a days mining. I do know that eventually, refining and manufacturing will actually be the more profitable way to go, but for now, I dont really care about the handful of isk I am losing out on.
Sandrestal
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-01-04 00:16:08 UTC
I just have to wonder if mining is so worthless and everybody stops, where will you get your fuel for your caps and super caps?
Marsan
#32 - 2012-01-04 00:29:00 UTC
One thing to understand is a lot of HS miners aren't just mining. They are mining while chatting, watching TV or the like. So in effect the minerals are free as they would be chatting, watch TV and the like in any event. So they make rifter, drakes or the like for friends and corpmates and sell the rest. They make more than enough isk via mining to fund their activities so they have no motive to maximize their return.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.

Zircon Dasher
#33 - 2012-01-04 07:24:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
This thread makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

So glad to see the generalized "opportunity cost" argument being debunked (like it should)

Anyway:

Akita T wrote:
A lot of people keep confusing "free" with "worthless".
Mined ore is (or at least can be) "technically free" (as in, not having paid any ISK for it, or at least negligible amounts of ISK), but then again, so is ISK itself and just about anything else inside EVE, so the term "free" has very little practical meaning in EVE.
What mined ore isn't is worthless (or worth less than market price), so turning it into something worth less than its original worth is a net asset value loss, and therefore kind of silly (with very few exceptions regarding certain unusual relations between speed of mining vs speed of selling minerals vs speed of selling manufactured items).

However, I would NOT agree that they're destroying the economy, not as long as more mathematically-aware people stick around. What they're actually end up doing most of the time practically is donating ISK they don't realize they had to people who know how to value stuff properly.


Akita makes a good distinction between "free" and "worthless". It should be noted that someone who places his widget on the market for less than the sell order price of the minerals is not, necessarily, exhibiting a "minerals are valuless" mentality. (This is why the "then give me your minerals free" response to a MIMAF agents is a sign of a weak troll and not a reasoned argument)

Where many people, including Akita it seems, go wrong is conflating worth and value. As Akita says people with more mathematical skill, desire, and/or information are able to profit from MIMAF agents because they value widgets higher than said agent. This is only true so long as the value they precieve the widget having is actually borne out at the time of sale. Prior to the point of sale the widget has no "worth"; merely an expected worth or value (these two are distinct). If the "smart" marketeer has a sufficient hold upon the markets, either alone or in concert with others, then the anticipated value is very likely to be the same as the worth. As said marketeer moves towards less market control, however, the lower the expectation can be reasonably held that he or she will value correctly under these circumstances. This is doublely true when there are large inventories needed to be sold and/or there is low volume of trade. The difference between expected worth and real worth seems a semantic quibble until you consider the real disparities in market power across the EVE economy.

The second idea worth articulating is the idea that, with sufficient skills and standings, ships = minerals from an economic standpoint. This conceptual framework, however, lends merit to those people selling below mineral sell orders. So, while it may be true that you may reproc a ship into minerals and sell the minerals for a higher price than the ship itself, there can be very good economic reasons why a person would rather sell a batch of 100 Harbingers at 5% below current mineral sell order price as opposed to taking the extra ISk. When it comes to ships there is likely to be some sub-set of sales that will be used as ships. Since this sub-set will be turned to exploding pixles as opposed to minerals, there will be less of an impact on short-term mineral prices; which can be a huge boon to the industrialist who happened to produce those Harbs behind the 8-ball but wants to insure the price of other products in the near future. This is in addition to competition stratagies that become available when one agent has a material advantage over another (normal market mechanics) or those that arise from dumping practices.

And finally- there is an opportunity cost incurred when you do not dump on markets. The venom spit by, mostly, people who got a "C" in microecon 101is priceless!

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.

Ehn Roh
#34 - 2012-01-17 18:22:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Ehn Roh
Amana Tsasa wrote:
Now, I'm not necessarily saying I support or condemn the philosophy of the 'What I mine is free' crowd, I don't personally care about the philosophy one way or the other.

My question is, why do so many other people care?


A lot of people are probably not happy about being undercut, as has been noted already.

Personally, I find it irritating on a whole different level - if you can't understand basic economics in a game, you probably don't understand them elsewhere either, resulting in craptacular real world economic policies.

Same thing happens with a few other contentious issues as well.


Mining is creating something of value, one way or another; floaty rocks > ore. I don't see anything wrong with taking your own raw materials and using manufacturing as a value-adding step for purposes of profit. The key there, though, is that you need to actually to sell the pile of whatever you're making for more than the pile of minerals would have sold for, and to not cut too much into time you could have spent gathering more materials instead.

If you're spending half your time screwing around manufacturing and hauling to destination and not selling the items for more than their mineral value, then you are one of the following:

1. Making modules you need yourself because they are not locally available, or you can do it cheaper
2. Making modules your corp/alliance needs because they are not locally available, or you can do it cheaper
3. A complete failure as an industrialist
4. RP-ing as a traveling flameburst missile salesman, or simply some odd flavor of troll.

It's person #3 that is annoying the hell out of everyone. Sorry, if you take 1 mil ISK worth of minerals and sell 300K ISK worth of modules made from them with the intent of "making money", and insist that you're not pissing money down the drain, then you fail.

I sell crap in lowsec. Scrams, webbers, sensor boosters, probe stuff. Even poorly researched BP's can give you 5x over material and manufacturing cost, and the mark up is enough that you could manufacture using reprocessed craploot for the most part.
Zifrian
The Pannion Domin
#35 - 2012-01-17 18:52:13 UTC
Amana Tsasa wrote:
Now, I'm not necessarily saying I support or condemn the philosophy of the 'What I mine is free' crowd, I don't personally care about the philosophy one way or the other.

My question is, why do so many other people care?

The question should be 'do they matter?'

People will care for several different reasons but in the end, do they matter? A lot of people continue to blame them for low margins or what have you but I'm not convinced there are enough of them to affect the market in the way some argue. If they were then no one would complain because they could just buy their underpriced items and reprocessed for profit, hence a self correcting market solution. Probably more of a case of 'I cant make tons of isk doing what I have done for months anymore..blame them!' than anything else.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

Skrymir Osiris
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2012-01-18 10:07:24 UTC
Free...Hmmm...
My Orca wasn't free, all those hulks, machs and covetors that I have payed for weren't free. Modules needed are not free, mining crystals are not free, those blueprints I need to build stuff are not free. I even have to buy some of the minerals from market in order to build ships that other like blowup aren't free....

Mining and Industry is MY choice and my alone!
Why I chose this, because I can! I already had a account with combat pilot and I wanted to try another way to play Eve.

Nothing pisses me more than people who complain "You are not playing this game like me so you are doing it wrong".

Also when people start taking games too seriously it's time for some reality check. Games are entertainment.
So suck it up and let miners mine and builders build.
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-01-18 10:28:46 UTC
Do mine (and please mine more, the mineral prices are going up! Sad ).

Do build. People need modules and ships.

Just don't build and sell something at a price that is lower than what you would have got if you would have sold just the minerals instead. That gives you less ISK and generally indicates that you are either lazy or bad at math. It also gives away ISK to people who just then buy those things and reprocess them into minerals for profit. You wouldn't want all those ships and modules you just carefully built to be immediately tossed into a reprocessor and torn to shreds - and only because you sold them below the mineral cost.
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#38 - 2012-01-18 12:26:55 UTC
Ore you mine is free, after you have sold enough of it to cover for the SP you spent learning the skills (calculated from PLEX value), and the ship+equipment. After that it's all profit. This is the hard math, and no opportunity cost voodoospin can change that, and the same applies to any activity in EVE. Factor in your costs, and whatever you get after that is profit.

So next question is how much your time is worth? At the current PLEX price that is about 695000 ISK per hour*, the only universal measure in game. As long as you make more than that, you are WINNING IN EVE! Congrats!

Mining might have poor efficiency or low ISK/hour compared to other activities, but it's also very low-effort activity, unique and relaxing even.

People who use their own ore for building ships, and then selling them under their mineral value are doing bad business, but that is unrelated to the fact they still didn't pay a penny for their mins.

Furthermore, people generally misunderstand opportunity cost. It's not the difference in profit between option A and any arbitrary option X that comes to their mind and prints more iskies, it's the difference of profit between your real options A and B, at that moment, without time machines and ificouldishouldshenanigans. For example Nokia would make more euros by manufacturing iPhones(tm) instead of failphones, but they actually can't do it right now in the real world, so that difference is not their opportunity cost. Neither is Vanguard fleet in an officer Mach a real option for a three week old budding industrialist.

tl;dr- claiming that minerals are not free because L4s pay more is total bullshit and only mindless parrots keep repeating it.



* if you don't play 23/7 and have 3 accounts, for example, your time might be worth quite a bit more Blink

.

Juliana Stinger
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2012-01-18 13:58:48 UTC
"pvp" pilots who are enjoying to kill something that is not challenging ,they need a reason to justify their actions, it doesn't matter if the reason make sense.
Amana Tsasa
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2012-01-18 20:29:23 UTC
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
Do mine (and please mine more, the mineral prices are going up! Sad ).

Do build. People need modules and ships.

Just don't build and sell something at a price that is lower than what you would have got if you would have sold just the minerals instead. That gives you less ISK and generally indicates that you are either lazy or bad at math. It also gives away ISK to people who just then buy those things and reprocess them into minerals for profit. You wouldn't want all those ships and modules you just carefully built to be immediately tossed into a reprocessor and torn to shreds - and only because you sold them below the mineral cost.


Just because someone can get a better price, and they dont, doesn't mean they are lazy, that's like saying a runner who can run farther, but doesn't is lazy. Just because I CAN run more than ten miles, but only run five a day, doesn't make me lazy.

Just because they sell them at below market cost doesn't mean they are bad at math, they just may simply not care how much time it took them to mine the resources, for any number of various reasons, from chatting (sometimes, EVE is little more than an expensive ship spinning simulated chat room, for me, lol) to as many different reasons as there are players in EVE.

And for a very large majority of people/business' that sell merchandise, with the exclusion of licensing, some types of firearm dealers, and other quasi-legal merchandise (Alcohol, Tobacco, etc), and probably some others I cannot think of off the top of my head, most couldn't care a bit what you do with it once you have given them the money for it, you could run it over with your car right in front of them, as long as they made their money.

The problem with blanket generalizations is that this world, whether EVE or Real, cannot work on them, for every person out there there is a different reason, a different philosophy. The problem with most of the logic I'm seeing from people here is that they are arguing from a Manufacturers standpoint, not a businessman's. Yet they claim that it is in business-sense. If a businessman sells back scratchers at 10% markup, but finds that someone else sells them in his same area for 15% below cost, the smart businessman will simply buy those, so only his are on original markup.

TL/DR: If you approach it from a business vantage, most Anti-MIMAF proponents would support the MIMAF crowd, as it would simply be a means of increased revenue for them.