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Why doesn't CCP like current Attribute system?

First post
Author
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#21 - 2015-09-03 22:08:56 UTC
The Larold wrote:
Optimum mapping combined with +5 implants... 2,700 sp/hour was a beautiful thing. Now I feel gross whenever I'm training anything that's < 2,520 / hour. :)

and that's why attributes are bad.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-09-04 02:20:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Zihao
Aerasia wrote:
Zihao wrote:
it would be hilariously ironic to replace the "needless complexity," of the attributes/training dimension with an even more complex feature that had an impact on individual ships or modules.
I don't think "Replacing needless complexity with game impacting complexity" is the definition of "ironic" you were looking for.


Except they both impact the game, so there's nothing changing in that sense. I don't see how you can be hung up on a system because it makes everyone remap the same way to train, but think it's wonderful that they should all remap the same way for a role like combat. The irony is palpable, it's a shame you're missing it.

I can totally understand wanting to do away with attributes. I may be ambivalent about how important that is, but I see the logic. Replacing their current functionality with a booster/hardwire style buff just seems to be attempting to solve a problem by replacing it with another one.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2015-09-04 04:36:09 UTC
Zihao wrote:
they should all remap the same way for a role like combat.

...

Replacing their current functionality with a booster/hardwire style buff just seems to be attempting to solve a problem by replacing it with another one.
Because everybody always uses the same implants for combat?

Perhaps more snarky than the overall point deserves; I understand the idea that a poorly done system would end up with the same ideal remap problem that we have now. And yes, I'd take complete obliteration of the attribute system over a poorly done combat enhancement system.

But having Attributes impart some tradeoff for actual flight, where a pilot would choose their specialization based on role and strategy?

Yes please.
Fornost Fornostsen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2015-09-04 06:45:06 UTC
Aerasia wrote:
Zihao wrote:
they should all remap the same way for a role like combat.

...

Replacing their current functionality with a booster/hardwire style buff just seems to be attempting to solve a problem by replacing it with another one.
Because everybody always uses the same implants for combat?

Perhaps more snarky than the overall point deserves; I understand the idea that a poorly done system would end up with the same ideal remap problem that we have now. And yes, I'd take complete obliteration of the attribute system over a poorly done combat enhancement system.

But having Attributes impart some tradeoff for actual flight, where a pilot would choose their specialization based on role and strategy?

Yes please.


No thanks!

It will be even worse!

Now you can be the tackler of your fleet, reship and be the logibro, then reship again and take a missile ship... All in the same game session.

With the system you are thinking one will have to choose which role perform perfectly and which role perform subpar and being stuck in this choice for the time between one remap and another...
Atum' Ra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-09-04 08:37:22 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Another hit against the attribute system is how many RPGs or games can you think of where your character has stats/attributes that have NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on gameplay?

I'm not saying they should, but it's just completely unintuitive and boring that there's no difference between playing with a highly Charismatic character or a highly Intelligent character.


Just tell CCP to make these differeces!!!
That's a good start point to make something really interested and complicated like D&D system!
Avvy
Doomheim
#26 - 2015-09-04 08:42:41 UTC
Atum' Ra wrote:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Another hit against the attribute system is how many RPGs or games can you think of where your character has stats/attributes that have NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on gameplay?

I'm not saying they should, but it's just completely unintuitive and boring that there's no difference between playing with a highly Charismatic character or a highly Intelligent character.


Just tell CCP to make these differeces!!!
That's a good start point to make something really interested and complicated like D&D system!


What for, may as well get rid of attributes, I'm sure nobody would actually miss them except those that dream of the old days.
Anthar Thebess
#27 - 2015-09-09 08:27:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Hard choices.

EDIT:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Another hit against the attribute system is how many RPGs or games can you think of where your character has stats/attributes that have NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on gameplay?

I'm not saying they should, but it's just completely unintuitive and boring that there's no difference between playing with a highly Charismatic character or a highly Intelligent character.


This is interesting idea.
Intelligence - stronger scanner probes, data/relic analyzers and similar stuff
Memory - better industry and science.
Perception - more effective guns and missiles
Willpower - more effective drones
Charisma - more effective links, and ships capable of mounting them.
Jeremiah VII
Cobramos
#28 - 2015-09-10 16:58:21 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Hard choices.

EDIT:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Another hit against the attribute system is how many RPGs or games can you think of where your character has stats/attributes that have NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on gameplay?

I'm not saying they should, but it's just completely unintuitive and boring that there's no difference between playing with a highly Charismatic character or a highly Intelligent character.


This is interesting idea.
Intelligence - stronger scanner probes, data/relic analyzers and similar stuff
Memory - better industry and science.
Perception - more effective guns and missiles
Willpower - more effective drones
Charisma - more effective links, and ships capable of mounting them.


This would def be a good way to get attributes to mean something. Without a way to quickly remap, though, I would expect this to widen the gap between a newbro and vets even more. It'll just become more like every other MMO out there.

Make attributes do the above to give them "gameplay" meaning -> corps/gangs/fleets will demand not only a specific ship/module fit, but an attribute set also.

Currently, a corp can and will provide a ship/fitting if needed (a lot of the time) by a char who can use them, especially if it's for a role that's in high demand.

You have 1 char who can have the skills @ 4/5 to fly the ship well, and is a perfectly good fit for the ask. They also can be a perfectly good fit for N other roles.

If you make the attributes part of the equation, then the requirement will end up being PER-specced + skills @4/5. Anyone without that spec need not apply.

I'm not trying to say the corp's stance in this case is wrong - they should drive what's going to be most successful.

The problem I see is that by adding functional stats to the attributes you'll be taking away on-the-fly options from the players in practice, even though in theory there's now more options.

Personally, I'd rather see the attributes just be taken away, but I don't think they're hurting anything now in and of themselves. It's just that online gamers are conditioned to expect more bang for their attribute buck.
Fornost Fornostsen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2015-09-10 17:30:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Fornost Fornostsen
Jeremiah VII wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Hard choices.

EDIT:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Another hit against the attribute system is how many RPGs or games can you think of where your character has stats/attributes that have NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on gameplay?

I'm not saying they should, but it's just completely unintuitive and boring that there's no difference between playing with a highly Charismatic character or a highly Intelligent character.


This is interesting idea.
Intelligence - stronger scanner probes, data/relic analyzers and similar stuff
Memory - better industry and science.
Perception - more effective guns and missiles
Willpower - more effective drones
Charisma - more effective links, and ships capable of mounting them.


This would def be a good way to get attributes to mean something. Without a way to quickly remap, though, I would expect this to widen the gap between a newbro and vets even more. It'll just become more like every other MMO out there.


And with a way to quiclky remap this feature will only become redundant with the implant system (you can have different Jump Clones with different implant sets and change clone every 20h).

I think that seems a good idea on paper, but when I think about it's real implementation into gampleay this feature doesn't look so good.
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2015-09-10 20:02:03 UTC
It's probably the first thing that comes to mind after grinding levels in Diablo III. Twisted
The Asteroid
Fuel Blocks for Dante
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#31 - 2015-10-04 23:05:59 UTC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFc4jQghYDk&feature=youtu.be

She mentions a re-written attribute system, but I can't find any info on it anywhere?
Amateratsu
The Pegasus Project
#32 - 2015-10-05 19:54:21 UTC
CCP may not like the attribute system, but I'll bet you that (just like the learning skill) it will take them several years of forum complaints and debating, before they finally get their fingers out....... and remove them.
The Asteroid
Fuel Blocks for Dante
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#33 - 2015-10-05 20:07:44 UTC  |  Edited by: The Asteroid
Bumping everyone's attributes up by a certain amount and removing attribute implants from game would go a long way I think. I don't know how hard that would be to code, but it may allow more risk-averse people to be less risk-averse.

That would be more or less a band-aid though, and would cause LP to be even more worthless.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2015-10-08 02:20:44 UTC
Aerasia wrote:
But having Attributes impart some tradeoff for actual flight, where a pilot would choose their specialization based on role and strategy?
If role based how is that beneficial? Much like current attributes effectively penalize off map training, wouldn't off attribute activities provide effective penalties as well?

If that's the core of the issue I'd personally be much more in favor of elimination than shifting a character development level issue to a global performance issue.
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#35 - 2015-10-15 19:52:16 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Hard choices.

EDIT:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Another hit against the attribute system is how many RPGs or games can you think of where your character has stats/attributes that have NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on gameplay?

I'm not saying they should, but it's just completely unintuitive and boring that there's no difference between playing with a highly Charismatic character or a highly Intelligent character.


This is interesting idea.
Intelligence - stronger scanner probes, data/relic analyzers and similar stuff
Memory - better industry and science.
Perception - more effective guns and missiles
Willpower - more effective drones
Charisma - more effective links, and ships capable of mounting them.


No, this is a bad idea. That just tells new players, "You can train or you can fight, but not both." Tank skills, fitting skills, navigation skills, and all the other little nuances that effects every ship in the game takes skills other than perception, so remapping to complete those would be a direct nerf to your combat performance, which is already sub-par because you haven't finished said skills and you can't fit your ship properly. I'm way more in favor of just completely eliminating attributes, given that right now they just serve to slow down all off the path training for no reason at all. And since the meta is constantly shifting like it does in all games, there's a chance your training path can change entirely and you're screwed for a year. I find that to be a pretty **** poor design.
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