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Black Ops BS Rebalance

First post
Author
Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2015-09-08 14:44:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
If you guys only want them to be a gank or bridging ship, do they need the cloaked velocity bonus?

Does anyone get any use out of that bonus? It's so slow that it hardly seems useful... I figure that it is intended to get close to your target but that would require you to be waiting on grid before your target arrives.
Iain Cariaba
#42 - 2015-09-08 14:53:50 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
If you guys only want them to be a gank or bridging ship, do they need the cloaked velocity bonus?

Does anyone get any use out of that bonus? It's so slow that it hardly seems useful... I figure that it is intended to get close to your target but that would require you to be waiting on grid before your target arrives.

It's to get you off your safe spot while cloaked in case hostiles are probing you down. Here's a hint, if you're trying to slow boat cloaked to your target, you're using the ship wrong. *cough*jumpdrive*cough*
Lugh Crow-Slave
#43 - 2015-09-08 20:00:01 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
I wouldn't want to see them being able to fit Covops cloak but making them not appear on dscan could be interesting...


I was just thinking that. But as I consider what that would bring to blops, I can't really think of an advantage that would give them. They spend most of their time cloaked anyway.


not to mention one of the only ways to counter a blops is to know its there this makes deciding when to d-cloak/undock in the blops a hard choice as you do not want to be spotted sure probes would still get you but overall i don't think its something blops need

it is one of the things i think would have the lowest impact but that is not always a pro for adding something
Lugh Crow-Slave
#44 - 2015-09-08 20:01:47 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
If you guys only want them to be a gank or bridging ship, do they need the cloaked velocity bonus?

Does anyone get any use out of that bonus? It's so slow that it hardly seems useful... I figure that it is intended to get close to your target but that would require you to be waiting on grid before your target arrives.

It's to get you off your safe spot while cloaked in case hostiles are probing you down. Here's a hint, if you're trying to slow boat cloaked to your target, you're using the ship wrong. *cough*jumpdrive*cough*


not to mention it greatly increases align time and makes gate to gate travel a bit easier. something done much more by blops now that they can't just jump jump jump
Arla Sarain
#45 - 2015-09-08 20:25:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Every time I see thread like these it makes me wonder who and why actually thinks there is a problem with BLOPs.

It sounds like the discontent arises from the trend that BLOPs are not used in large fights that this game is famed for.
But that's only because overfitting BLOPs with purple is so popular, which in its own way is a magnet for getting blobbed and primaried

BLOPs, whilst given role with an ambiguous meaning by devs, have found a niche as potent gank boats. Whilst there are proBLOPS/purists to whom this may sound trivial and somewhat of peasant role, the niche is useful because it churns valuable commodities out of the game. BLOPs are powerful tools to use against blingy ratters, which upon death remove 50% of the stuff.

BLOPs are cleaning EVE. It might not be glamorous, but they should be welcomed the way they are.
Vic Jefferson
ElitistOps
Snuffed Out
#46 - 2015-09-08 21:14:25 UTC
Nightfox BloodRaven wrote:
Still wanna know why they dont have t2 resist lol


This would be terrible for the game.

Mobility. Damage. Tank. Pick Two, and you have a philosophically balanced ship.

Blops BS have incredible mobility and damage.

Marauders have incredible tank and damage.

Marauders are the TII ship that is meant to go toe to toe with pretty much everything, and win. Even without static TII resists they can take an incredible amount of punishment with the right fits and tactics. If they had static TII resists, they would be hilariously overpowered and verge on realistically un-killable by anything short of a dreadnought.

Blops aren't meant to go toe to toe with other BS in a fight, let alone supersede them. They are by nature meant for hit and run and harassment tactics. They are not meant to be better line BS. If the SIn had TII resists....can you imagine a Dominix hull with TII resists that can jump 8LY at a time? That would be hilariously overpowered and they would become the best at everything at once, and invalidate all other ship choices in the game.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

M1k3y Koontz
THE AESIR.
Hostile Probes
#47 - 2015-09-08 21:48:36 UTC
BLOPs need to be brought up to the level of Redeemers. The Redeemer is the gold standard in BLOPs, and other BLOPs pale in comparison. Panthers don't have the tank or damage or application at range.

I won't comment on other BLOPs since I don't fly them, but in every BLOPs fleet I've been on, Redeemers outnumber other BLOPs by at least 3:1.


Fuel bay is fine as it is, cloaking isn't the problem, it's just the fact that they're generally underwhelming. Make the Panther, Widow, and Sin as good as the Redeemer and I'll be happy.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
Parasitic Legion.
#48 - 2015-09-08 23:34:41 UTC
Barring everything else, my personal view about ships is;
No sub-capital ship should require the use of an alt to be used for its intended role.

Now I already know there will be "use a fleet member to cyno you in" coming. But the same could be said about capitals but there is a reason that every capital pilot has a cyno alt on a separate account.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Aliventi
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#49 - 2015-09-09 00:44:59 UTC
BlOps do not need a covert ops cloak. The cloaked velocity bonus makes BlOps very viable without giving them covert cloaks. Those who do not use BlOps BS often see this as a wasted bonus. Those that do see it as crucial to their BlOps BS survive-ability. You see the cloaked velocity bonus allows the BlOps BS to kill ther target, MJD off, cloak, align to a safe, decloak and instantly go into warp. Upon landing at their safe they can cloak up and move quickly to get out of the way in case they were probed.

While you can argue that a covert ops cloak would allow BlOps BS to do the exact same thing easier. I would kind of agree. You then have to deal with this undeniable fact: Covert Ops Cloaks are a powerful bonus. Therefore, giving BlOps BS a Covert Ops cloak it would require a compensatory nerf. There isn't much you can nerf on the BlOps BS without making them totally irrelevant. BlOps deserve better than to be nerfed because people are bad at flying BlOps BS.

tl;dr: BlOps BS don't need a covert ops cloak because they get the exact same functionality out of the cloaked velocity bonus, 0 target delay upon decloaking bonus, and the 5 second recloak bonus.

Now you may ask: "What the do BlOps really need?" I have an answer for you!

  1. They need their fitting adjusted. Every BlOps needs more CPU or PG. I am not advocating for enough fitting room that they can fit whatever they want. I am advocating for enough fitting space that it will no longer be mandatory to faction/deadspace fit a BlOps BS to get a decent fit on it.
  2. BlOps BS need to be combat focused. Bring a recon if you want bonused EWAR. Therefore, the Widow needs to lose its ECM bonus and be changed to a missile DPS boat.
  3. Shift the cloaked velocity bonus to a 250% cloaked velocity role bonus. This will free up a bonus for each of the BlOps BS for something cool that will make BlOps stand out.
  4. Remove the inertia bonus from the Sin and the velocity bonus from the Panther and give them real bonuses. The Cap use bonus on the Redeemer can also go.
  5. WOULD BE SUPER COOL IF: CCP could make it so that the jump portal generator became a required part to build a BlOps BS and the functionality was built in.
  6. OPTIONAL: While many will argue for or against T2 resists I think CCP should evaluate the potential for them to have half t2 resists. It would give them a touch more tank without making them gamebreaking. If CCP determines this to be too powerful then that is okay.
  7. OPTIONAL: The Sin should be either drone focused or blaster focused. The Dual bonuses are weird, but not awful.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#50 - 2015-09-09 02:18:05 UTC
5. No. It's a fittable module to create a fitting choice. If I had my way, jump drives would also be fittable modules.

7. Hybrids. Definitely not drones. Blops should be able to disengage and cloak back up without losing their DPS.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#51 - 2015-09-09 02:55:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
BLOPs need to be brought up to the level of Redeemers. The Redeemer is the gold standard in BLOPs, and other BLOPs pale in comparison. Panthers don't have the tank or damage or application at range.

I won't comment on other BLOPs since I don't fly them, but in every BLOPs fleet I've been on, Redeemers outnumber other BLOPs by at least 3:1.


Fuel bay is fine as it is, cloaking isn't the problem, it's just the fact that they're generally underwhelming. Make the Panther, Widow, and Sin as good as the Redeemer and I'll be happy.


lol wut?


Widow has the highest DPS and aplication at the widest variety of ranges

Sin has fastest and best aplication over the widest variety of targets

panther is the fastest and has amazing DPS aplication over close range

Redeemer is tank and has good application at mid range


one reason you see redeemers outnumbering is do to the pally, they are either the cheapest or one of the cheapest blops, and they are the most conventional to fly making it easier for ppl who don't fly blops as often
Lugh Crow-Slave
#52 - 2015-09-09 02:56:55 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
5. No. It's a fittable module to create a fitting choice. If I had my way, jump drives would also be fittable modules.

7. Hybrids. Definitely not drones. Blops should be able to disengage and cloak back up without losing their DPS.



As a Sin pilot i would not want to lose my abuility to not only forgo my scan res penalty but be able to apply damage to all targets just because i need to pull in drones b4 i leave field or go get new ones
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2015-09-09 03:47:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
common things that come up that blops do not need

-Cov ops cloak

-higher scan res (or reduction to cloak penalty)

-T2 resists (a slightly better resist profile could be warranted)

-Removal of fatigue

-larger fuel bay

-more E-war

-larger jump range



Marauders have a T2 resist bonus, it's much smaller than what Assault-type ships get, but those resist bonuses make a huge difference in the ship's ability to mitigate damage. It drastically increases their effective hit points as well as the effectiveness of hit point recovery. It's easier to forgive with frigates because they don't have enough slots to take advantage of the resists very well, and are still fairly easy to pop once you web and paint them. I feel if anything T2 cruisers should have their resist bonuses decreased a bit, and I'd say Marauders have it about right.

That being said, Black Ops have less resist bonus than Marauders and, coupled with their piddly HP, is barely any defense at all. Of course they don't need much defense since they don't do a lot of combat, but it's not really unbalancing to make them able to hold their own in combat, either. Consider rebalances to command ships and combat battlecruisers: now they can fit the ganglinks and still tank and shoot effectively. Nobody seems to think they're overpowered in this new form, but it will go a long way toward making them popular for boosting whenever boosts go on-grid, which I suspect was CCP's thinking here.

Now Black Ops don't need to ever be brought on grid, but it happens sometimes that they inadvertently find themselves in the midst of a battle. It makes sense that a ship so expensive would have some decent defenses, at least on-par with the smaller T1 battleships. As it stands, Black Ops are squishier than the "tier 1" tech 1 battleships. I'd go for increasing their HP to match the tech 1 "tier 1" lineup and increasing their resists to be on-par with marauders. It's not like they can use bastion modules to go even higher like marauders can.

Furthermore, Black Ops have weapon bonuses that don't make a lot of sense if they aren't supposed to be taken into combat. Their only relevant bonuses are the two Black Ops skill bonuses; the two racial battleship skill bonuses go generally unused. The Widow is somewhat unpopular among Black Ops because it has an ECM bonus instead of an agility bonus like the Sin, or a speed bonus like the Panther. But I'd suggest a new style of Black Ops: take out the weapon bonuses and replace them with jamming EWAR--it's not for combat but for defensive use, it's to help protect the valuable Black Ops ship while you get it off the field. Then make sure all 4 of them have a maneuverability bonus. It would look like this:

Redeemer
Amarr Battleships skill bonuses
tracking disruptor strength
tracking disruptor range
Black Ops skill bonuses
ship agility
velocity while cloaked


Widow
Caldari Battleships skill bonuses
ECM jammer strength
ECM jammer range
Black Ops skill bonuses
ship velocity
velocity while cloaked


Sin
Gallente Battleships skill bonuses
sensor dampener strength
sensor dampener range
Black Ops skill bonuses
ship agility
velocity while cloaked


Panther
Amarr Battleships skill bonuses
target painter strength
stasis webifier range
Black Ops skill bonuses
ship velocity
velocity while cloaked

(The painting/webbing bonuses on the Panther can be used to help destroy small tackling ships.)


This way you can take advantage of the EWAR without giving up on the mobility. Might make the Widow a lot less unpopular.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

ApolloF117 HUN
Puritans
We want your ISK
#54 - 2015-09-09 03:52:42 UTC
RcTamiya wrote:
FireFrenzy wrote:
marauders in bastion have t2 resists i think... marauders with base t2 resists would be a thing to see though....


140k dps tank on Vargur aint enough :)


how do you tank out 140k dps? a titan can't tank that
Luscius Uta
#55 - 2015-09-09 06:09:34 UTC
I suppose he meant EHP.

Soldarius wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
I wouldn't want to see them being able to fit Covops cloak but making them not appear on dscan could be interesting...


I was just thinking that. But as I consider what that would bring to blops, I can't really think of an advantage that would give them. They spend most of their time cloaked anyway.


One more reason to introduce it then - it wouldn't break anything (and goes along well with their role)

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#56 - 2015-09-09 06:24:52 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
common things that come up that blops do not need

-Cov ops cloak

-higher scan res (or reduction to cloak penalty)

-T2 resists (a slightly better resist profile could be warranted)

-Removal of fatigue

-larger fuel bay

-more E-war

-larger jump range



Marauders have a T2 resist bonus, it's much smaller than what Assault-type ships get, but those resist bonuses make a huge difference in the ship's ability to mitigate damage. It drastically increases their effective hit points as well as the effectiveness of hit point recovery. It's easier to forgive with frigates because they don't have enough slots to take advantage of the resists very well, and are still fairly easy to pop once you web and paint them. I feel if anything T2 cruisers should have their resist bonuses decreased a bit, and I'd say Marauders have it about right.

That being said, Black Ops have less resist bonus than Marauders and, coupled with their piddly HP, is barely any defense at all. Of course they don't need much defense since they don't do a lot of combat, but it's not really unbalancing to make them able to hold their own in combat, either. Consider rebalances to command ships and combat battlecruisers: now they can fit the ganglinks and still tank and shoot effectively. Nobody seems to think they're overpowered in this new form, but it will go a long way toward making them popular for boosting whenever boosts go on-grid, which I suspect was CCP's thinking here.

Now Black Ops don't need to ever be brought on grid, but it happens sometimes that they inadvertently find themselves in the midst of a battle. It makes sense that a ship so expensive would have some decent defenses, at least on-par with the smaller T1 battleships. As it stands, Black Ops are squishier than the "tier 1" tech 1 battleships. I'd go for increasing their HP to match the tech 1 "tier 1" lineup and increasing their resists to be on-par with marauders. It's not like they can use bastion modules to go even higher like marauders can.

Furthermore, Black Ops have weapon bonuses that don't make a lot of sense if they aren't supposed to be taken into combat. Their only relevant bonuses are the two Black Ops skill bonuses; the two racial battleship skill bonuses go generally unused. The Widow is somewhat unpopular among Black Ops because it has an ECM bonus instead of an agility bonus like the Sin, or a speed bonus like the Panther. But I'd suggest a new style of Black Ops: take out the weapon bonuses and replace them with jamming EWAR--it's not for combat but for defensive use, it's to help protect the valuable Black Ops ship while you get it off the field. Then make sure all 4 of them have a maneuverability bonus. It would look like this:


No one said BLOPS are not meant to be on grid and the weapon bonus gets used on all of them they make them exctremly strong to take out targets


the widow i find to be an exceptional BLOPS the ECM lets it fill a role and the weapon bonus lets it BLAP cruisers like nothing else

one of the main reasons i could not see them getting any more tank than they already have is currently tank fit and with T3 logi they are extremely hard to break


overall Solo or flown by pilots that are not proficient i can see why people think these ships are not worth their cost or that they can't hold their own in a fight. But these are some of the most powerful battleships in the game if not some of the most powerful ships. They can hold their own in a fight they can apply great amounts of DPS even to smaller targets and they can bring with them a fleet out of nowhere
Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2015-09-09 07:58:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
If you guys only want them to be a gank or bridging ship, do they need the cloaked velocity bonus?

Does anyone get any use out of that bonus? It's so slow that it hardly seems useful... I figure that it is intended to get close to your target but that would require you to be waiting on grid before your target arrives.

It's to get you off your safe spot while cloaked in case hostiles are probing you down. Here's a hint, if you're trying to slow boat cloaked to your target, you're using the ship wrong. *cough*jumpdrive*cough*


I understand that but I don't think that it is the entire reason for the bonus, as the panther and sins extra mobility bonuses would seem to suggests CCP intended the cloaked velocity bonus for offensive as well as defensive positioning...

With that in mind, i think the speed bonus should be greatly increased or replaced with the ability to use a prop mod while cloaked.
Vic Jefferson
ElitistOps
Snuffed Out
#58 - 2015-09-09 08:32:49 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Now Black Ops don't need to ever be brought on grid, but it happens sometimes that they inadvertently find themselves in the midst of a battle.


What you describe here are any or all of the following:
Really brave pilots.
Really unlucky pilots.
Exceptionally bad at BLOPS, can't scout or took obvious bait.

Part of the blops game is not putting yourself at risk without a good expected outcome.


Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
one of the main reasons i could not see them getting any more tank than they already have is currently tank fit and with T3 logi they are extremely hard to break


This, very much this. I really don't get why people are always pointing to tank as a flaw in the current BLOPS design - they just don't understand how bad things would get if they had even half TII resists. You have the initiative, you can bring ewar, you can bring overwhelming damage, and have the element of suprise, and theoretically perfect information before you commit - those are how you should be winning with blops BS, not via your raw resists and tank outlasting an enemy. If you want to do that, bring a marauder. TII or even T1.5 resists on a BS that can take remote reps......that can do 1000+dps and jump 8ly at a time offensively or defensively? Just plain silly. Sledge and scalpel are two different tools.

That being said, I can see various buffs to Blops to make them more specialized at their task. Scan res buffs. A heating bonus that only applies for 2 minutes after they have jumped. Sensor strength buffs. Increased fatigue reduction. Less Isotope usage to make extended operations more feasible. Fitting bonuses to probe launchers. Things to make them specialized, not just straight up better than their t1 equivalents.

You have many options if you want to go for bigger targets:
A)Bring more BLOPS.
B)Bring more Ewar. You have your choice of every flavor! a few sensor damps with the right scripts can turn a fight.
C)Bring T3 Logi
D)Bring a ball of RR Stratios

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Lugh Crow-Slave
#59 - 2015-09-09 10:50:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Vic Jefferson

That being said, I can see various buffs to Blops to make them more specialized at their task. Scan res buffs. A heating bonus that only applies for 2 minutes after they have jumped. Sensor strength buffs. Increased fatigue reduction. Less Isotope usage to make extended operations more feasible. Fitting bonuses to probe launchers. Things to make them [i wrote:
specialized[/i], not just straight up better than their t1 equivalents.



the scan res bonus is built into the hull if you want to take advantage of it risk a more expensive cloak or risk no cloak

the hearing bonus does peak my interest i'm not sure it would be good for the blops but perhaps a 1%per level to just give a very slight heat reduction at the start it may sound small but it would go a long way.

they do not need sensor strength buffs; back to the element of surprise and having better intel your support should be able to lock down enemy e-war and you should know in advance if you need ECCM

the prob launcher reduction i also don't like as Cov ops frigs are already a rare part of blops set ups.

they do not need a fatigue reduction any more than they already have the 8ly range gives them a very large hunting area so they don't need to move to much to get in place and with proper fatigue management my group has managed well over 20 drops in a single night with no more than gaining two hours of fatigue.

they also do not need to be cheaper to jump nor a larger or bay. Again coming back to their larger jump range means fuel is spent on the actual drops and not moving the ship and even b4 this a BR was always more than enough to keep a blops fleet out all night


while i do like your approach better to the blops than some others and the heat idea is interesting i'm still standing on the side that says BLOPS don't need a rebablance at this point. There are ships out there in much more need of one and blops are so well balanced right now not just in the game as a whole but against one another that altering it may just cause problems
Lugh Crow-Slave
#60 - 2015-09-09 10:58:53 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
If you guys only want them to be a gank or bridging ship, do they need the cloaked velocity bonus?

Does anyone get any use out of that bonus? It's so slow that it hardly seems useful... I figure that it is intended to get close to your target but that would require you to be waiting on grid before your target arrives.

It's to get you off your safe spot while cloaked in case hostiles are probing you down. Here's a hint, if you're trying to slow boat cloaked to your target, you're using the ship wrong. *cough*jumpdrive*cough*


I understand that but I don't think that it is the entire reason for the bonus, as the panther and sins extra mobility bonuses would seem to suggests CCP intended the cloaked velocity bonus for offensive as well as defensive positioning...

With that in mind, i think the speed bonus should be greatly increased or replaced with the ability to use a prop mod while cloaked.


and that very well may be what CCPs intention was with the panther and sin and they both do it very well but what makes the blops class great is each of them excel in their own areas each bringing something different to the table