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[Idea] Ship and Cargo Scanning free of risk?
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Anages
Doomheim
#1 - 2015-09-08 11:28:22 UTC
In high and low sec, ship and cargo scanning should not be risk free.
Players should get suspect timer from using them on a neutral ship.
If you sit on a gate 0 m/s in T1 frig with sensor booster and scan ships,
you get free information that you can send to your ganking squad, without consequences.
People want to scan ships then they should have to prepare for a suspect timer.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2015-09-08 11:30:51 UTC
Suspect timer is crap. What would be good is counterplay options - for example something which can spoof them.

But then we have BR's...but it would be nice to have something which is not "all of nothing"
Black Pedro
Mine.
#3 - 2015-09-08 11:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Anages wrote:
In high and low sec, ship and cargo scanning should not be risk free.
Players should get suspect timer from using them on a neutral ship.
If you sit on a gate 0 m/s in T1 frig with sensor booster and scan ships,
you get free information that you can send to your ganking squad, without consequences.
People want to scan ships then they should have to prepare for a suspect timer.

Why? Scanning a ship causes no harm.

The ability to scan cargo serves an important game function. If pirates were unable to see what is inside ships, they would be forced to gank ships basically at random. In this situation there is less incentive for players to haul responsibly, and keep their cargo under a certain limit as basically it is a crap shoot if they will get destroyed this chance unaffected by their hauling behaviour.

It is much better to have gankers going after overloaded ships. This punishes risky behaviour, and incentivizes, actually allows, pirates to be selective with their targets instead of ganking at random.

There is already a counter to being scanned though. If you don't like having your stuff scanned, put it in a Blockade Runner.

So -1.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#4 - 2015-09-08 12:31:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Black Pedro wrote:

Why? Scanning a ship cause no harm.

The ability to scan cargo serves an important game function. If pirates were unable to see what is inside ships, they would be forced to gank ships basically at random. In this situation there is less incentive for players to haul responsibly, and keep their cargo under a certain limit as basically it is a crap shoot if they will get destroyed this chance unaffected by their hauling behaviour.

It is much better to have gankers going after overloaded ships. This punishes risky behaviour, and incentivizes, actually allows, pirates to be selective with their targets instead of ganking at random.

There is already a counter to being scanned though. If you don't like having your stuff scanned, put it in a Blockade Runner.

So -1.



i do like your logic of if gankers were made vulnerable by cargo scanning they just wouldn't do it


however no there is already risk involved in scanning as players can already bait there cargo hold so -1 to the idea


what i would like to see is a notification over your hud(like scram web ect) to indicate a scan this is both to help new players that know nothing of cargo scans as well as players who have much smaller monitors and can not easily see an effect being applied to there ship

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Black Pedro
Mine.
#5 - 2015-09-08 13:03:23 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
i do like your logic of if gankers were made vulnerable by cargo scanning they just wouldn't do it
This is, of course, the intention of this proposal when it is made every few months. It is intended to serve as an arbitrary hoop for gankers to jump through to provide more safety for haulers.

If it was implemented, I am sure gankers would adapt, but why should they? Criminal gameplay is intended by CCP. Criminal gameplay works best if criminals can go after the juiciest targets. There is no point in making the lives of new or inexperienced gankers more difficult for no other reason to provide safety to haulers, or discouraging gankers from taking the time to scan for targets.

There is already enough teeth gnashing on these forums about empty freighters getting exploded - we don't need to make changes that will encourage that kind of thing.

If you want to make haulers safer, there are much more effective ways.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#6 - 2015-09-08 13:20:56 UTC
No to this idea, if you are going to have players go suspect for scanning cargo then they should go suspect for d-sacn and probe scanning and any other form of scanning in the game.

BR are immune to cargo scans so there is one option.

Another is to take advantage of the bubble rap thingy, if it is still a thing. Not sure on that as I rarely scan ships cargo so if I am incorrect someone please tell me.

Trade your stuff to an alt, have that alt set it up on contract haul, everything you take gets put into a shipping container and that minimizes the chances a pirate will find out what you are carrying.

Black Pedro, while I normally find myself in agreement with you over ganking related issues this is not one of them.
With 3 characters on a single alt account to use as scanners a ganker could easily by pass most of the hassles associated with the suspect timer. I still think the idea is bad but part of your reasons for not wanting it simply do not hold up under further scrutiny.
Iain Cariaba
#7 - 2015-09-08 13:26:27 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
what i would like to see is a notification over your hud(like scram web ect) to indicate a scan this is both to help new players that know nothing of cargo scans as well as players who have much smaller monitors and can not easily see an effect being applied to there ship

This I could agree to. I currently play on a laptop barely capable of running EvE, and as such I have to turn all effects off. Makes it kind of eerie for me when hauling because I literally have no way of knowing when someone is scanning me if they use a passive targeter.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#8 - 2015-09-08 13:51:16 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:

Black Pedro, while I normally find myself in agreement with you over ganking related issues this is not one of them.
With 3 characters on a single alt account to use as scanners a ganker could easily by pass most of the hassles associated with the suspect timer. I still think the idea is bad but part of your reasons for not wanting it simply do not hold up under further scrutiny.
Of course they could mitigate it. They could just fit rookie ships with scanners and use untrained "suicide" alts. They, could fit a fast aligning ship with a cloak and jump through the gate if someone decided to target them and warp off and hide. But the point is why should they have to? It actively makes the game worse if gankers cannot select targets. Ships should not be destroyed randomly - overloaded ships should be more dangerous to fly than empty ones. Why attempt to discourage scanning for no reason? The OP didn't even give a reason for this change.

Look at Blockade Runners - they are ganked all the time and they are unscannable. The fact that they are unscannable means that they are just as dangerous to fly empty as they are with 20B ISK in blueprints inside - gankers have no idea and will just take a chance. If they could scan them, they might choose to let a unprofitable-to-gank empty one pass by.

With Blockade Runners it is an interesting exception to the general mechanic, but if all hauling was like that? It would be a much worse game design if gankers just selected targets at random.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Jacek Cygan
Shocky Industries Ltd.
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2015-09-08 21:11:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jacek Cygan
Black Pedro wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:

Black Pedro, while I normally find myself in agreement with you over ganking related issues this is not one of them.
With 3 characters on a single alt account to use as scanners a ganker could easily by pass most of the hassles associated with the suspect timer. I still think the idea is bad but part of your reasons for not wanting it simply do not hold up under further scrutiny.
Of course they could mitigate it. They could just fit rookie ships with scanners and use untrained "suicide" alts. They, could fit a fast aligning ship with a cloak and jump through the gate if someone decided to target them and warp off and hide. But the point is why should they have to? It actively makes the game worse if gankers cannot select targets. Ships should not be destroyed randomly - overloaded ships should be more dangerous to fly than empty ones. Why attempt to discourage scanning for no reason? The OP didn't even give a reason for this change.

Look at Blockade Runners - they are ganked all the time and they are unscannable. The fact that they are unscannable means that they are just as dangerous to fly empty as they are with 20B ISK in blueprints inside - gankers have no idea and will just take a chance. If they could scan them, they might choose to let a unprofitable-to-gank empty one pass by.

With Blockade Runners it is an interesting exception to the general mechanic, but if all hauling was like that? It would be a much worse game design if gankers just selected targets at random.



they could but it putting some effort in their game play, for now hyperdunking removed all effort and investment(lost ships) in ganking

BRs are random loot pinata thats needs low effort(1 man) to kill, thats why they are so often ganked
Duke Morgan-Elite
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2015-09-09 00:04:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Duke Morgan-Elite
Black Pedro wrote:
Anages wrote:
In high and low sec, ship and cargo scanning should not be risk free.
Players should get suspect timer from using them on a neutral ship.
If you sit on a gate 0 m/s in T1 frig with sensor booster and scan ships,
you get free information that you can send to your ganking squad, without consequences.
People want to scan ships then they should have to prepare for a suspect timer.

Why? Scanning a ship causes no harm.

The ability to scan cargo serves an important game function. If pirates were unable to see what is inside ships, they would be forced to gank ships basically at random. In this situation there is less incentive for players to haul responsibly, and keep their cargo under a certain limit as basically it is a crap shoot if they will get destroyed this chance unaffected by their hauling behaviour.

It is much better to have gankers going after overloaded ships. This punishes risky behaviour, and incentivizes, actually allows, pirates to be selective with their targets instead of ganking at random.

There is already a counter to being scanned though. If you don't like having your stuff scanned, put it in a Blockade Runner.

So -1.



So you are picking between two evils and decided that less evil is better because only haulers should be punished and gankers let go free?
Obvious bias towards your activities.
It should be equal risk for haulers and for the gankers, Id say people should get concorded in +5 just for scanning ships, since this is prerogative of the owners of the system/region, not some pesky individuals.
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#11 - 2015-09-09 05:24:43 UTC
Duke Morgan-Elite wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Anages wrote:
In high and low sec, ship and cargo scanning should not be risk free.
Players should get suspect timer from using them on a neutral ship.
If you sit on a gate 0 m/s in T1 frig with sensor booster and scan ships,
you get free information that you can send to your ganking squad, without consequences.
People want to scan ships then they should have to prepare for a suspect timer.

Why? Scanning a ship causes no harm.

The ability to scan cargo serves an important game function. If pirates were unable to see what is inside ships, they would be forced to gank ships basically at random. In this situation there is less incentive for players to haul responsibly, and keep their cargo under a certain limit as basically it is a crap shoot if they will get destroyed this chance unaffected by their hauling behaviour.

It is much better to have gankers going after overloaded ships. This punishes risky behaviour, and incentivizes, actually allows, pirates to be selective with their targets instead of ganking at random.

There is already a counter to being scanned though. If you don't like having your stuff scanned, put it in a Blockade Runner.

So -1.



So you are picking between two evils and decided that less evil is better because only haulers should be punished and gankers let go free?
Obvious bias towards your activities.
It should be equal risk for haulers and for the gankers, Id say people should get concorded in +5 just for scanning ships, since this is prerogative of the owners of the system/region, not some pesky individuals.



You say he's biased, but you're just as biased lol.

Let me 1 up your idea, if you even click on a ship that's not yours on the overview, you get instantly Concorded in highsec.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#12 - 2015-09-09 08:50:53 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Anages wrote:
In high and low sec, ship and cargo scanning should not be risk free.
Players should get suspect timer from using them on a neutral ship.
If you sit on a gate 0 m/s in T1 frig with sensor booster and scan ships,
you get free information that you can send to your ganking squad, without consequences.
People want to scan ships then they should have to prepare for a suspect timer.

Why? Scanning a ship causes no harm.

The ability to scan cargo serves an important game function. If pirates were unable to see what is inside ships, they would be forced to gank ships basically at random..


Oh man I lost it. 10/10 solid gold bro. Noone is forcing you to gank. You could always go pvp in null or low or wormholes where ship scanning is irrelevant.

That sounds so funny in reverse doesn't it.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#13 - 2015-09-09 09:00:36 UTC
Anages wrote:
In high and low sec, ship and cargo scanning should not be risk free.


Why? It's an inherently non hostile act in the game mechanics. It would be like criminalizing probes because people use them to invade missions. Both would literally defeat the intended purpose of the existence of their modules.

Miners and haulers are not supposed to be safe in highsec, or anywhere else. Get used to it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-09-09 11:35:01 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Anages wrote:
In high and low sec, ship and cargo scanning should not be risk free.


Why? It's an inherently non hostile act in the game mechanics. It would be like criminalizing probes because people use them to invade missions. Both would literally defeat the intended purpose of the existence of their modules.

Miners and haulers are not supposed to be safe in highsec, or anywhere else. Get used to it.


I'd argue the non-hostile bit, the equivalent being someone in the street rifling through my pockets to see whats in there. I'd be pretty hostile about that (unless it's a hot woman Blink). I would sa cargo-scanning a ship should be a suspect act myself but certainly not considered CONCORDable aggression. You want fights? Go cargo scan people and see if anyone fights back, otherwise no change except a little risk to your neutral scanners in their NPC corps :)
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#15 - 2015-09-09 11:46:52 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I'd argue the non-hostile bit, the equivalent being someone in the street rifling through my pockets to see whats in there. I'd be pretty hostile about that (unless it's a hot woman Blink). I would sa cargo-scanning a ship should be a suspect act myself but certainly not considered CONCORDable aggression. You want fights? Go cargo scan people and see if anyone fights back, otherwise no change except a little risk to your neutral scanners in their NPC corps :)


It's just that one more nerf we need, right? Then everything will be ok.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2015-09-09 11:56:24 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I'd argue the non-hostile bit, the equivalent being someone in the street rifling through my pockets to see whats in there. I'd be pretty hostile about that (unless it's a hot woman Blink). I would sa cargo-scanning a ship should be a suspect act myself but certainly not considered CONCORDable aggression. You want fights? Go cargo scan people and see if anyone fights back, otherwise no change except a little risk to your neutral scanners in their NPC corps :)


It's just that one more nerf we need, right? Then everything will be ok.


Not at all since the module works exactly the same way, nothing nerfed but a pilot should be at risk to gather direct intel in such a way I feel.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#17 - 2015-09-09 12:00:01 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I'd argue the non-hostile bit, the equivalent being someone in the street rifling through my pockets to see whats in there. I'd be pretty hostile about that (unless it's a hot woman Blink). I would sa cargo-scanning a ship should be a suspect act myself but certainly not considered CONCORDable aggression. You want fights? Go cargo scan people and see if anyone fights back, otherwise no change except a little risk to your neutral scanners in their NPC corps :)


It's just that one more nerf we need, right? Then everything will be ok.


Not at all since the module works exactly the same way, nothing nerfed but a pilot should be at risk to gather direct intel in such a way I feel.


Which is a nerf to ganking. Why do you think such a rare activity, and one that's good for the economy, should be further restricted?

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#18 - 2015-09-09 13:25:52 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Anages wrote:
In high and low sec, ship and cargo scanning should not be risk free.


Why? It's an inherently non hostile act in the game mechanics. It would be like criminalizing probes because people use them to invade missions. Both would literally defeat the intended purpose of the existence of their modules.

Miners and haulers are not supposed to be safe in highsec, or anywhere else. Get used to it.


I'd argue the non-hostile bit, the equivalent being someone in the street rifling through my pockets to see whats in there. I'd be pretty hostile about that (unless it's a hot woman Blink). I would sa cargo-scanning a ship should be a suspect act myself but certainly not considered CONCORDable aggression. You want fights? Go cargo scan people and see if anyone fights back, otherwise no change except a little risk to your neutral scanners in their NPC corps :)


No, it's like standing outside a bank with binoculars and a notepad.

Potentially problematic, but nothing law enforcement can do anything about. The act itself is 100% legal.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2015-09-09 13:30:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Anages wrote:
In high and low sec, ship and cargo scanning should not be risk free.


Why? It's an inherently non hostile act in the game mechanics. It would be like criminalizing probes because people use them to invade missions. Both would literally defeat the intended purpose of the existence of their modules.

Miners and haulers are not supposed to be safe in highsec, or anywhere else. Get used to it.


I'd argue the non-hostile bit, the equivalent being someone in the street rifling through my pockets to see whats in there. I'd be pretty hostile about that (unless it's a hot woman Blink). I would sa cargo-scanning a ship should be a suspect act myself but certainly not considered CONCORDable aggression. You want fights? Go cargo scan people and see if anyone fights back, otherwise no change except a little risk to your neutral scanners in their NPC corps :)


No, it's like standing outside a bank with binoculars and a notepad.

Potentially problematic, but nothing law enforcement can do anything about. The act itself is 100% legal.


I wonder what happen if you try to check what is in a Garda, Secur, GS4 van or something like that. Not that it should trigger anything in EVE but I'm pretty sure it does not work exactly work like that IRL.

Mind you, I'm definately not gonna try "for the sake of science" even if many come by every day.
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#20 - 2015-09-09 14:13:13 UTC
Scanning another ships cargo is most definitely a form of information warfare. I'm cool with there being an aggression timer. Might mean more ships go splody splody.
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