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The ULTIMATE Solo L4 Mission Ship
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#21 - 2015-09-01 00:10:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
stoicfaux wrote:
Two Rigor 1s + 3 TPs + MGC w/Script + 5% dmg implant == one shotting non-elite NPC cruisers with Fury. So damage application with Fury ammo isn't a problem.

I've seen NPC Destroyers die to just TPs. Never mind that I rarely have to shoot NPC frigates to complete a mission. Even then, the non-elite frigates die so fast, I've seen MTUs pull them in while and salvage drones disassemble them mid flight.

Elite frigates are the only thing that Fury ammo is a waste for, but that's what light drones are for.

Fury does 18% more damage than Faction launchers with Faction ammo. Cruise Fury DPS 900. Faction DPS 762.

Two rigors, three TPs and a precision-scripted MGC... all so one can one-shot non-elite NPC cruisers with T2 Fury ammunition. In most cases a volley of Faction ammunition with a single TP would produce the same result.

Pith Destroyer/Extinguisher (battleship) ... 4-5 volleys (occasionally sneaks in a repair cycle)
Pith Conquistador/Dismantler (battleship) ... 4 volleys
Pith Eradicator/Obliterator (battleship) ... 3 volleys
Pithatis Assaulter/Assassin/Enforcer, Guristas Spy (battlecruiser) ... 1 volley
Pithum Abolisher/Eraser (cruiser) ... 1 volley
Pithior Supremacist/Terrorist (destroyer) ... 1 volley
Guristas Webifier (frigate, orbit) ... 4 volleys
Guristas Kyoukan (frigate, orbit) ... 2 volleys

The only instance where T2 Fury will give you a distinct edge over Faction ammunition is bombarding large stationary structures, but these are only typically found in missions players avoid due to Faction stading loss. Again, we're talking about a perceived difference in paper DPS. Applying more damage than is required to pop a NPC rat isn't more DPS - it's overkill. There's too and from mission travel time as well as a marginally faster rate of fire and 3 more volleys of ammunition with Faction launchers.

I have run the setup you describe, including varying combinations of rigors/flares and TPs/MGCs. Ultimately I've found there's no perceivable difference in the vast majority of non-blitzing scenarios where the stated goal is to shoot and loot everything. So while I appreciate and agree with the vast majority of your missile analysis, I respectfully have to take exception with this one.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
stoicfaux
#22 - 2015-09-01 00:18:45 UTC
Ugh, you're trying to goad me into releasing an up to date missile damage spreadsheet aren't you?


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#23 - 2015-09-01 00:25:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Anize Oramara wrote:
Don't see the point of running a Golem if you're not using Fury. Better to look at a Vargur at that point.

Nothing against the Vargur, but I prefer the Golem. And what's this hard-on for Fury ammunition?

stoicfaux wrote:
Ugh, you're trying to goad me into releasing an up to date missile damage spreadsheet aren't you?

Well, since you brought it up... Big smile

Pith Destroyer/Extinguisher (battleship) ... 4-5 volleys (occasionally sneaks in a repair cycle)
Pith Conquistador/Dismantler (battleship) ... 4 volleys
Pith Eradicator/Obliterator (battleship) ... 3 volleys
Pithatis Assaulter/Assassin/Enforcer, Guristas Spy (battlecruiser) ... 1 volley
Pithum Abolisher/Eraser (cruiser) ... 1 volley
Pithior Supremacist/Terrorist (destroyer) ... 1 volley
Guristas Webifier (frigate, orbit) ... 4 volleys
Guristas Kyoukan (frigate, orbit) ... 2 volleys

I'd be curious to know how many similar volleys it takes using the T2 setup you suggested.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
The Bigpuns
United Standings Improvement Agency
#24 - 2015-09-01 07:04:47 UTC
"T2 ammo has terrible application. Golem has great bonuses to application. I won't fit application mods, therefore t2 ammo is bad".

Eh?
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#25 - 2015-09-01 08:37:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
The Bigpuns wrote:
"T2 ammo has terrible application. Golem has great bonuses to application. I won't fit application mods, therefore t2 ammo is bad".

Eh?

Yea, if there is one ship that can use Fury to it's fullest then it's the Golem. Application bonus on the hull, requires 1/3 of the tank modules so has slots coming out the wazoo and they introduced new modules specifically for application. Hell even Torps are a viable alternative. Polarised Torp launchers putting out 150% the DPS on the OP's cruise fit using FACTION torps and no implants anyone? Best part is taking the OPs fit the torp boat has higher Explosion Velocity and only 39 more Explosion Radius (Made up for by mounting 2 additional target painters)

If anyone feels like experimenting (I sadly do not have the skills for this on TQ) try this thing out:

[Golem, New Setup 1 copy 1]
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System

Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Large Micro Jump Drive
Republic Fleet Target Painter
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Pith C-Type Large Shield Booster
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Bastion Module I
Salvager II
Salvager II
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II

Hobgoblin II x5
Acolyte II x5
Salvage Drone I x5

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
The Bigpuns
United Standings Improvement Agency
#26 - 2015-09-01 09:22:23 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
The Bigpuns wrote:
"T2 ammo has terrible application. Golem has great bonuses to application. I won't fit application mods, therefore t2 ammo is bad".

Eh?

Yea, if there is one ship that can use Fury to it's fullest then it's the Golem. Application bonus on the hull, requires 1/3 of the tank modules so has slots coming out the wazoo and they introduced new modules specifically for application. Hell even Torps are a viable alternative. Polarised Torp launchers putting out 150% the DPS on the OP's cruise fit using FACTION torps and no implants anyone? Best part is taking the OPs fit the torp boat has higher Explosion Velocity and only 39 more Explosion Radius (Made up for by mounting 2 additional target painters)

If anyone feels like experimenting (I sadly do not have the skills for this on TQ) try this thing out:

[Golem, New Setup 1 copy 1]
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System

Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Large Micro Jump Drive
Republic Fleet Target Painter
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Pith C-Type Large Shield Booster
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Bastion Module I
Salvager II
Salvager II
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II

Hobgoblin II x5
Acolyte II x5
Salvage Drone I x5


Next time I'm at my pooter, I actually might... What range does it have?
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#27 - 2015-09-01 09:36:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
The Bigpuns wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
The Bigpuns wrote:
"T2 ammo has terrible application. Golem has great bonuses to application. I won't fit application mods, therefore t2 ammo is bad".

Eh?

Yea, if there is one ship that can use Fury to it's fullest then it's the Golem. Application bonus on the hull, requires 1/3 of the tank modules so has slots coming out the wazoo and they introduced new modules specifically for application. Hell even Torps are a viable alternative. Polarised Torp launchers putting out 150% the DPS on the OP's cruise fit using FACTION torps and no implants anyone? Best part is taking the OPs fit the torp boat has higher Explosion Velocity and only 39 more Explosion Radius (Made up for by mounting 2 additional target painters)

If anyone feels like experimenting (I sadly do not have the skills for this on TQ) try this thing out:

[Golem, New Setup 1 copy 1]
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System

Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Large Micro Jump Drive
Republic Fleet Target Painter
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Pith C-Type Large Shield Booster
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Polarized Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Bastion Module I
Salvager II
Salvager II
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II

Hobgoblin II x5
Acolyte II x5
Salvage Drone I x5


Next time I'm at my pooter, I actually might... What range does it have?

49.7km with faction and 74.5km with Javs (Still out DPSing the faction cruises by 250 dps with same application as faction torps) If you're desperate for range you can switch to a range script and get 56.8km with faction and 85km with the Javs. The only instance where that will probably come up is with certain gurista and sansha BS rats (the only rats that come to mind that orbit further than 50km.)

Keep in mind that these are numbers without any implants. You can increase warp speed, range, dps and/or application with implants if you have em.

Note: I would not recommend a marauder to anyone that has regular and consistent internet connection issues in the first place. That's just asking for trouble in my opinion. The game has systems and mechanics in place to protect your ship as much as possible in the event of a DC, be it your side or CCPs side. Marauders effectively override these safety measures rendering them useless. You basically agree to this when climbing into a marauder.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Arec Bardwin
#28 - 2015-09-01 14:48:28 UTC
Interesting idea with the warp speed rigs + implants on the golem; 2.2 au/s up to 5.4 au/s. In systems with long warps this could really save some time.

The problem is the dps and volley damage loss, around 20% reduction for both, with a slightly better damage application. And dropping 4bill on the HG Ascendacy set Blink
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#29 - 2015-09-01 15:56:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Arec Bardwin wrote:
Interesting idea with the warp speed rigs + implants on the golem; 2.2 au/s up to 5.4 au/s. In systems with long warps this could really save some time.

The problem is the dps and volley damage loss, around 20% reduction for both, with a slightly better damage application. And dropping 4bill on the HG Ascendacy set Blink

The base set of Ascendancy implants and pair of Hyperspacial rigs will boost warp speed to 4.48 AU/s without the need for the Omega Ascendancy implant (and then you can insert the +5 cruise missile damage implant). And it's not a 20% reduction in damage - this is paper DPS. The vast majority of battleships are still going to take 3 volleys to destroy - regardless of whether it's a volley of T2 Fury or Faction ammunition. You may occasionally save a single volley against some of the named battleships with T2 Fury ammunition - but that's about it. And against structures - but there really aren't that many to shoot in PvE.

The whole point of this fit was one where you could boost your warp speed, increase your tank and be able to even destroy frigates with Faction ammunition without having to always utilize light drones.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#30 - 2015-09-01 19:46:47 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:

Bastion Module I


Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II

since bastion mode just gives a speed bonus eft shows a lot more range with one missile speed, and one flight time rig. I'm not sure what the stacking is on that actually is in game though. Pre-bastion I had 2x missile speed rigs as there was almost no difference, and with the way acceleration works the 2x speed rigs might have even come out on top.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#31 - 2015-09-01 19:50:18 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
since bastion mode just gives a speed bonus eft shows a lot more range with one missile speed, and one flight time rig. I'm not sure what the stacking is on that actually is in game though. Pre-bastion I had 2x missile speed rigs as there was almost no difference, and with the way acceleration works the 2x speed rigs might have even come out on top.

I was under the impression that missile velocity with Bastion isn't stacking-penalized, but I could be wrong.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#32 - 2015-09-01 20:59:13 UTC
testing in game looks to be a ~16% speed bonus with 2x Hydraulic Bay Thruster IIs and bastion active. Bastion still gives a 25% bonus, but since it is the first bonus applied that means the rigs get the stacking penalty applied.

with cruise missiles, but looks to match perfectly with EFT numbers: http://i.imgur.com/ZGgNdfu.png

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#33 - 2015-09-01 21:04:10 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
testing in game looks to be a ~16% speed bonus with 2x Hydraulic Bay Thruster IIs and bastion active. Bastion still gives a 25% bonus, but since it is the first bonus applied that means the rigs get the stacking penalty applied.

with cruise missiles, but looks to match perfectly with EFT numbers: http://i.imgur.com/ZGgNdfu.png

That makes sense actually.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Niriel Greez
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2015-09-05 01:56:23 UTC
ITT dumb bear justifying green/purple because green/purple.
Tohkat Sinawi
Sinawi Exploration Corp
#35 - 2015-09-05 14:11:29 UTC
Did anyone happen to note that faction missiles cost 4x the cost of T2?

I know that the Golem uses little ammunition, but this really sounds to me like someone justifying not training T2 cruises and really wanting to offload some Caldari Navy LP.

At the same time, having to activate 3x TP per target sounds kinda obnoxious - not looking forward to that aspect of flying a marauder once I get there.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#36 - 2015-09-05 15:45:06 UTC
You are dead wrong on this from the moment you typed the very first letter of your title. To be blunt there is no such thing as "The ULTIMATE Solo L4 Mission Ship". I accept that from your point of view the fits posted are the bees knees and you consider them to be the best but that does not make them the best.

I am not claiming that what follow is the best, so to repeat from above there is no such thing as the best.

To me you give up way to much in damage and especially damage application to achieve the nearly useless cap stable part of your fits. With rigors and the Missile Guidance Computer II and no implants you can get T2 fury ammo to an explosion radius of 201 meters and an explosion velocity of 142 meters per second that makes those named BC that take you 1 or 2 volleys a consistent single volley kill. A switch to T2 precision ammo gets you well over 200 meters per second explosion velocity and reduces your explosion radius to just barely over 100 meters which lays waste to the cruiser and smaller class vessels in a way that your fits simply cannot achieve.

Having stated that your posted fits are excellent based on your stated goals for those fits, but again that does not make them the best fits or the best ships possible.

So I will end this essentially the same way I started it.
What to fly in a mission is a highly subjective and a very personal choice so there is not now and never will be a single best mission ship.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#37 - 2015-09-05 15:49:45 UTC
Tohkat Sinawi wrote:
Did anyone happen to note that faction missiles cost 4x the cost of T2?

I know that the Golem uses little ammunition, but this really sounds to me like someone justifying not training T2 cruises and really wanting to offload some Caldari Navy LP.

At the same time, having to activate 3x TP per target sounds kinda obnoxious - not looking forward to that aspect of flying a marauder once I get there.

Target painters are not all that much trouble once you ge used to them. However the new Missile Guidance Computers and the Missile Guidance Enhancers will give you the same affect without the micro management aspects of the painters that bother many players.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#38 - 2015-09-05 16:00:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Tohkat Sinawi wrote:
Did anyone happen to note that faction missiles cost 4x the cost of T2?

I know that the Golem uses little ammunition, but this really sounds to me like someone justifying not training T2 cruises and really wanting to offload some Caldari Navy LP.

At the same time, having to activate 3x TP per target sounds kinda obnoxious - not looking forward to that aspect of flying a marauder once I get there.

I did indicate that you could get comparable costs by manufacturing your own and converting from LP. Actually, I can run T2 cruise launchers (I still have V specialization to finish, though) and I prefer the Dread Guristas launchers for some reason. I believe the best results can be achieved with 2 painters + 2 precision-scripted MGCs + missile implants.

Donnachadh wrote:
Target painters are not all that much trouble once you ge used to them. However the new Missile Guidance Computers and the Missile Guidance Enhancers will give you the same affect without the micro management aspects of the painters that bother many players.

I remain unconvinced that MGEs provide any substantial benefit over ballistic control units - especially on a ship like the Golem.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
The Bigpuns
United Standings Improvement Agency
#39 - 2015-09-05 22:25:29 UTC
Mgc's and mge's do not provide anywhere near the same application bonus as tp's on a golem, except at ranges > 80km (ish). The only times they are preferable is: if you need range cos torps; your blasting stuff at long range; you already have 2-3 tp's; or your target is immune to tp's.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#40 - 2015-09-05 22:32:13 UTC
The Bigpuns wrote:
Mgc's and mge's do not provide anywhere near the same application bonus as tp's on a golem, except at ranges > 80km (ish). The only times they are preferable is: if you need range cos torps; your blasting stuff at long range; you already have 2-3 tp's; or your target is immune to tp's.

Agreed.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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