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Suggested fix for the bounty system

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#21 - 2015-08-29 21:16:30 UTC
Hal Morsh wrote:
Inacting aggression mechanics on bounties would make people dislike having them, therefore making them an effective way of paying for someone else misery which I think is what bounties were meant for.
They're not. That's why mixing the two up is a bad thing.

They're just there as a reward if the character gets killed for whatever reason, thus acting as an incentive to kill them should the occasion arise. Letting bounties create that occasion would mean they're no longer bounties, but wardecs, and that's a separate mechanic with its own set of restrictions and rules.

Quote:
It would turn even being in lowsec on bounty into an interesting thing
It already is.
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#22 - 2015-08-29 21:23:38 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Again, there's a reason why they're completely separate from aggression mechanics: one is mechanical punishment for in-game actions, another is a social punishment for player-to-player interaction. The two cannot serve the same purpose.




But a bounties are supposed to be a reason for someone to kill you, and reinforcing it with aggression mechanics without breaking the game more is a great way to make bounty placement worthwhile.

Tippia wrote:

Players must be allowed to set them freely since there is no mechanical way of determining intent that will not be pointless and obtuse.




That's why we've got to figure out a new (good) mechanic if anyone wants bounties to change for the better. CCP hasn't figured out a better way for bounties to work in EVE. I don't think it's a bad idea to try and help so long as they can filter the crap out on their own, and we know they can so lets give them suggestions.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#23 - 2015-08-29 21:31:16 UTC
Tippia wrote:
They're not. That's why mixing the two up is a bad thing.

They're just there as a reward if the character gets killed for whatever reason, thus acting as an incentive to kill them should the occasion arise. Letting bounties create that occasion would mean they're no longer bounties, but wardecs, and that's a separate mechanic with its own set of restrictions and rules.


People have said they want more reason for bounties to exist, so connecting the two would be a reason, and wardecs are a way to let your corp and alliance attack a group of people, which we know is in need of fixing. Setting a bounty higher than ships he flies would allow everyone to attack them while in highsec, you can't dec-dodge a bounty.

Yes I also know lowsec is already interesting, it would just make this particular person more vulnerable with less penalties for shooting him, more reason for this bounty system to exist. I'm not one for removing features like wardecs to enact a better bounty system though. They aren't the same thing but would be too close under the proposed bounty system.

Then yet again there's newbies to conciser.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#24 - 2015-08-29 21:31:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Hal Morsh wrote:
But a bounties are supposed to be a reason for someone to kill you, and reinforcing it with aggression mechanics without breaking the game more is a great way to make bounty placement worthwhile.

That's just it: you can't do it without breaking the game. That's why they're two (actually three) separate systems: one that determines and controls aggression as a general mechanism; one that controls aggression as a result of social dynamics; one that has nothing to do with aggression, and only works as a social marker.

You want them to be separate because they do different things. You want the interaction between them to be player-controlled, not mechanically constructed, or it becomes rather pointless to have any of them because otherwise, those three things can no longer give rise to their respective dynamics. If you feel that wardecs don't work as intended, then you must change wardecs, not some unrelated mechanism that serves a completely different and unrelated purpose.

Quote:
That's why we've got to figure out a new (good) mechanic if anyone wants bounties to change for the better.
First you have to answer why there's any need to change them at all. They're a player-controlled system for kill rewards. Why does it have to be anything else?

Quote:
Then yet again there's newbies to conciser.
There's nothing to consider, other than maybe that it's yet another game mechanic they have to learn and understand. That they have to learn it is not a reason to break the game by mixing unrelated mechanisms and making the dynamics even more confusing for them.
Malt Zedong
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2015-08-29 21:32:16 UTC
Bounties are supposed to be a prize for someone's head. They are not restricted to be for vengeance, pride or anything.

If I get up one day and decide I want reward people who kill you, I place a bounty on you. It is more or less like in real life. People go to the local gangs and say there are payment for someone to be wacked. They dont ask why, they dont ask if its fair. They just see if it worths, and do. They just ask for the payment afterwards.

You confuse EVE with something that has intrinsec Christian values of false kindness and self righteousness.

New Eden is more like the (true, not the american version) buddhist version: You Reap What You Sow, by doing what you do, regardless of your intent in doing.

WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul.
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#26 - 2015-08-29 21:33:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
Tippia wrote:
First you have to answer why there's any need to change them at all. They're a player-controlled system for kill rewards. Why does it have to be anything else?



People are asking for it. I'm just trying to see if and how it could work.

If it couldn't be abused to kill newbies and the other systems were revamped. Maybe in the future we can reconsider bounties. because removing things and making it all into one removes overall complexity from the game and i'm against that too. Which is why that argument between us was started a while back.


A removal of an occasion where someone went suspect irked me in that other thread. Even though it seems like that one got nowhere I was looking for another answer than (removed because exploration changed and created a risk reward unbalance).



I'm just going to say if the game can be improved, someone has to figure out if it can be first. Balance the improvements with the... Whatever the opposite of an improvement is.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#27 - 2015-08-29 21:44:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Hal Morsh wrote:
But a bounties are supposed to be a reason for someone to kill you, and reinforcing it with aggression mechanics without breaking the game more is a great way to make bounty placement worthwhile.

That's just it: you can't do it without breaking the game. That's why they're two (actually three) separate systems: one that determines and controls aggression as a general mechanism; one that controls aggression as a result of social dynamics; one that has nothing to do with aggression, and only works as a social marker.

You want them to be separate because they do different things. You want the interaction between them to be player-controlled, not mechanically constructed, or it becomes rather pointless to have any of them because otherwise, those three things can no longer give rise to their respective dynamics.

Quote:
That's why we've got to figure out a new (good) mechanic if anyone wants bounties to change for the better.
First you have to answer why there's any need to change them at all. They're a player-controlled system for kill rewards. Why does it have to be anything else?



The only good reason to change them is the intrinsic problem with PvP as a paying career: it's strongly negative sum.

If Someone Aggreived wants to pay you, Tippia to inflict harm on me, Malcanis, then you're going to want a lot of ISK to do it, likely far more ISK than the actual net harm you're going to inflict on me. Now given that I suck pretty hard at PvP, we'll assume that if you can catch me, you can kill me. But EVE makes it pretty easy for someone who doesn't want to be caught not to be caught. Let's say it takes you 5 or 6 hours of focused game time to catch up with me. Taking Hi-sec L4 income as the baseline, that means you're going to want 250-360M ISK to even make the effort to get a scram on me, before you even consider the risk of me accidentally shooting back (and the much higher risk of me being with 20-200 friends, but leave that to the side for the moment).

In short, you're not going to get out of bed for less than half a bill here.

Under the current system that means that I pretty much have to be flying a capital ship. It's kind of a shame that I can't actually fly capital ships, so that will never happen.

Now the reason for the restriction is, as I am confident that you are aware, that if I just have an unrestricted 500M bounty on me, I will instantly claim it for myself on an alt.

The required reform of the bounty system is therefore to restrict to whom the contract can be accepted by. You will, I am equally confident, not be surprised to learn that I have already thought about this.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#28 - 2015-08-29 21:49:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
Malcanis wrote:

The required reform of the bounty system is therefore to restrict to whom the contract can be accepted by. You will, I am equally confident, not be surprised to learn that I have already thought about this.




That does get into wardec territory though, which I am pretty sure CCP plans to fix. We can already pay a person to wardec someone and then place a bounty on the corporation as more of an incentive. CCP just needs to fix things like dec-dodging.

The topic here is how to improve the bounty system, without undoing other things or breaking something. I didn't even come up with the idea I like the OP did. Problem is newbies would die horribly under that system so again it isn't an easy fix and there will be many ideas that don't work.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#29 - 2015-08-29 22:03:09 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
The only good reason to change them is the intrinsic problem with PvP as a paying career: it's strongly negative sum.

[…]

The required reform of the bounty system is therefore to restrict to whom the contract can be accepted by. You will, I am equally confident, not be surprised to learn that I have already thought about this.

Sure, but my counter to that is that what you're asking for there is really more an extension of the wardec system, letting you target a specific individual for assassination (with appropriate costs). It's something that is arguably missing from the current triad of general, directed, and voluntary aggression, but it is also something that is not really the realm of the bounty system.

I think what I'm getting at here is that I don't actually mind if a given mechanic is underused, as long as it serves its purpose. As a general rule, at least unless you're trying to create a tightly focused and controlled game experience (which isn't really what EVE is all about) I feel it is better to let the dynamics evolve as interactions between mechanics rather than trying to hard-code a dynamic in a single game mechanic. If bounties are underused but still provide some accidental reward for killing certain players, then that's fine. They're doing their job, and there's little need or reason to change that.

So really, the problem is that we associate the word with an activity that the current mechanics don't allow for, and the fundamental omission there is the “single-target wardec”. Another problem is with the abysmally low granularity in how contracting works in this game. But both of those are better handled by altering (or even adding) the respective mechanism that actually control them at the moment, not warping something unrelated that only happens to have occupied the label.
Hengle Teron
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#30 - 2015-08-29 22:12:13 UTC
Alessienne Ellecon wrote:

Abolish the kill right system: people have been exploiting it anyway by transferring the kill right to an alt and locking it down with a billion isk activation cost. .

I have no idea why anyone actually thinks this is true.

If there are multiple kill rights on your head, the cheapest will be available first.

Just because there are plenty of kill right baits out there with a single high cost kill right on them, it doesn't mean they blocked any legit kill right.
Antylus Tyrell
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2015-08-29 22:34:01 UTC
Just get rid of the bounty system, it means nothing.

If people want to pay money to have someone blown up, that is what mercs are for. They can contract a hit with a real person or group rather then wasting their money on a pool that no one pays attention to anyway. Or better yet train themselves up and get the desired revenge themselves.

I feel everyday i am explaining to new players and highsec dwellers that bounties are a waste of money.
Avvy
Doomheim
#32 - 2015-08-29 22:53:59 UTC
Antylus Tyrell wrote:
Just get rid of the bounty system, it means nothing.

If people want to pay money to have someone blown up, that is what mercs are for. They can contract a hit with a real person or group rather then wasting their money on a pool that no one pays attention to anyway. Or better yet train themselves up and get the desired revenge themselves.

I feel everyday i am explaining to new players and highsec dwellers that bounties are a waste of money.



I kind of agree with you.

Instead of an in-game system that doesn't really work all that well. Players could fill the gap, maybe even have corps that do bounty hunting.
moep
Doomheim
#33 - 2015-08-30 00:05:50 UTC
Op has a point here, bounty systems is a fail at present stage. I would rather go for a solution in this direction:

Bounty system proposal

1. Combine bounty with sec status (negative) and maximum limits

2. Step increase of the max. limit from sec status -1.0 to -5,0, as example 50 million per -1.0 up to 200m max limit (amount is a first shot)

3. Bounty still needs to be placed and paid by players, but only possible up to the respective limit in regard to offenders current sec status

4. If you got a bounty on your head you are free to be shot on sight in highsec and lowsec.

5. Keep the 20% payout (or increase a little bit) so that buddy killing is not a major flaw

6. Bounty is auto-reduced with increased sec status, so soldier tags or sec grinding can reduce your bounty (but costs the offender some isk or time as is by today). If reduced the overpaid bounty goes to nevereverland.

7. Ship kill and bounty payout does not influence offenders sec status, so new bounty can be placed if below limit

Result:

=> Only players with negative sec status can have a bounty Pirate (like in the old days? I do not remember Question)

=> New players or "good" players are not faced with this system

=> Bounty hunting is still not a profession worth its isk but more reasonable and not that useless

=> No real ranking because many players will fly with 200m. Downside for famous bounty collectors Sad, but at least the "Wanted" logo is limited to the "badboy" playerbase and shown on all your player pics, maybe also extended to forum to get some Yarrr-feeling in the community.

Kill rights:
Make a limit, i don't know 20 mill. Will get people more trigger happy and will increase the hunt, downside no "abuse" as isk-income anymore.

PS: Quick shot from my side and needs some deeper rethinking by experts Big smile. It's late and maybe there is a loophole in this proposal.

Would be interesting to get a first feedback and maybe this could be something for the Features & Ideas forum

moepy out

PS: zzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz Blink
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#34 - 2015-08-30 00:19:21 UTC
moep wrote:
Would be interesting to get a first feedback and maybe this could be something for the Features & Ideas forum
You're effectively returning it to its old state, where it was far more pointless and useless than it currently is.

Limits are bad; mechanically-encoded “moral” is even worse; mixing up bounty and aggression mechanics is as bad is it possibly can be. Disallowing bounties on some arbitrarily structured measure of “good” players is downright nonsensical.

Your entire idea can essentially be described as “kill rights and security status”. We already have something that does that — it's called kill rights and security status.
Alessienne Ellecon
Doomheim
#35 - 2015-08-30 03:59:44 UTC
Reposting this thread to F&I, staff can lock it at their leisure.

"CONCORD are the space cops. If you attack someone in a high-security solar system, CONCORD will commit police brutality." - Encyclopedia Dramatica

If EVE is a PvP game, then Anti-Ganking is emergent gameplay.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2015-08-30 07:11:30 UTC
Yes, it scares new folks.

Yes, I am in rookie help often enough that I have actually made a mini-lesson about bounties that I cut and paste rather than type each time. I also assure them that if I am not worried then they have no reason to be worried either.

Any bounty system that grants the automatic right to shoot in hisec is a gankers dream. See freighter, bounty freighter gank freighter, no concord.

Any bounty system that requires a specific trespass against the person laying the bounty blocks punishment of all other infractions such as scamming bumping or just being a general asshat.

I agree the bounty system needs repairs or a rethink. But the OP here is not that repair.

Oh, and I send thank you notes to people who add to my bounty because I treat it as a show of support. After all, I haven't done enough to **** off most folks so it must be support, right?

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2015-08-30 07:16:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Terminal Insanity
can anyone point to a freighter pilot with a huge bounty on them? i mean, chribba doesnt even have that much bounty does he?

i think the bounty system is a huge improvement over what it used to be. It could still use some tweaks but its fine

seems more of a highsec issue to me. Less highsec = less problems imo

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#38 - 2015-08-30 07:20:01 UTC
From what I can tell the only way to really bounty someone is to make a list of conditions for payout, and give isk for said payout to a trusted third party. Its all a big pain in the arse, and probably not worth it at all. Anything else pretty much can be gamed, or won't pay out enough.

I think I remember seeing an n billion isk for killing so and so's titan, chribba holds the isk type thread a while ago... no idea if anyone ever claimed it though.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
moep
Doomheim
#39 - 2015-08-30 08:01:13 UTC
Tippia wrote:
moep wrote:
Would be interesting to get a first feedback and maybe this could be something for the Features & Ideas forum
You're effectively returning it to its old state, where it was far more pointless and useless than it currently is.

Limits are bad; mechanically-encoded “moral” is even worse; mixing up bounty and aggression mechanics is as bad is it possibly can be. Disallowing bounties on some arbitrarily structured measure of “good” players is downright nonsensical.

Your entire idea can essentially be described as “kill rights and security status”. We already have something that does that — it's called kill rights and security status.


Well, thank you for the feedback.

In general you got the point, it's a mix of the old and new system. From my standpoint:

Well i see it a little bit from the roleplaying side (mmorpg Blink), usually bounties are placed on the "bad guys" (or call them whatever you like, rebels, pirates, freedom warriors Lol) and not the casual miner running his business or a beginner just started the game 20 mins ago and getting a bounty in the help channel.

"In-game" morale plays a role in EVE, i.e. ganking is an in-game crime with retaliation by Concord, the bounty system was usually meant as retaliation method from player side for "bad" behaviour reflected in the sec status. Choosing to be on the pirate side is one part of the fun in EVE and the old bounty system was one method to show it. Now its just random stuff without any meaning.

Generally i liked the old system more than the new one from its general idea, payout was of course broken.

Quoting your post you do not like the sec status system as mechanically-encoded “moral” as well. Here i do not agree with your opinion.

But maybe it is just a matter of personal taste.

Mixing up in-game morale and real-life morale would be nonsensical Blink.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#40 - 2015-08-30 08:46:09 UTC
moep wrote:
Well i see it a little bit from the roleplaying side (mmorpg Blink), usually bounties are placed on the "bad guys" (or call them whatever you like, rebels, pirates, freedom warriors Lol) and not the casual miner running his business or a beginner just started the game 20 mins ago and getting a bounty in the help channel.
If you want to take the RP angle, you'd better believe that bounties are placed far more often on “good guys” since the bad-guys doing so couldn't care one whit about due process, whereas the good guys do. A bounty on someone's head is pretty much the exact opposite of due process. So really, from an RP angle, the exact opposite should be true: you should only be able to bounty positive-status characters.

Quote:
"In-game" morale plays a role in EVE, i.e. ganking is an in-game crime with retaliation by Concord, the bounty system was usually meant as retaliation method from player side for "bad" behaviour reflected in the sec status. Choosing to be on the pirate side is one part of the fun in EVE and the old bounty system was one method to show it. Now its just random stuff without any meaning.
It has far more meaning now than it did before. Now, a large bounty means you've actually pissed a off a fair amount of people. If it's up to the bountied person to make the choice, the choice becomes boring; if it is enforced by some hard-coded moral system, then it is amoral; if it is anything other than a reflection of what other people think of the character in question, it loses all value as a social cue.

Last I looked, I had a 4.5bn bounty — essentially for telling carebears that they are sissies. If anything, I wish it would be higher, but I'm already a free gank as it is, so meh. I also have a 5.01 sec status, which I've gained from the same activities that said sissies engage in. That bounty is their retaliation for my being knowledgeable about what they do and therefore not buying their BS reasoning for why those activities need to change. What you are asking for is the removal of this dynamic and of that mode of retaliation.

The new system conveys meanings that the old one was incapable of because it actually reflects a social state of affairs, whereas the old one was just some pointless echo of the separate and different, but far more relevant sec status mechanic. Sec status already encodes that “mechanical morality” — there's absolutely no need for bounties to do the same.

Terminal Insanity wrote:
can anyone point to a freighter pilot with a huge bounty on them?
I don't fly them that often these days, exactly because my bounty makes a (successful) freighter gank an automatic win for any attacker who comes after me. So yes kind of, but no, not really, but yes it confirms what you're implying?
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