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Suggested fix for the bounty system

First post
Author
Alessienne Ellecon
Doomheim
#1 - 2015-08-29 12:34:55 UTC
The bounty system needs to be thoroughly revamped for a number of reasons:


  1. Troll bounties are fine for veterans who can handle having a a few million (or 100) on their heads, but they're upsetting and driving away new players and are just generally annoying. (I'm looking at you, 123456. Thank goodness for the angry snowflake who gave me a decent bounty.)
  2. The recent change intended to squash bounty exploits has effectively made the whole system completely useless except for pointlessly harassing people in starter corps.
  3. It's a pointless waste of isk.


After discussing this with my corpmates, I present the following solution:


  • Abolish the kill right system: people have been exploiting it anyway by transferring the kill right to an alt and locking it down with a billion isk activation cost. Replace it with open season on anyone who has a bounty greater than the gross estimated market value of their ship and fit.
  • Allow bounties to pay the full amount, but only allow a player to issue a bounty against someone who has attacked them, attacked their corp's POS or stolen cargo from a container (that would get me a king's ransom on my head before long :P ) outside of a corp war. If the parties' corps are at war, the bounty system will not apply.
  • If multiple parties in a fleet claim a bounty, divide the isk accordingly.
  • Add the option for players to pay off their bounties: the full value to CONCORD, then half again to the aggrieved player/s.


I tried to think of everything, but this is EVE and someone will invariably find an exploit.

"CONCORD are the space cops. If you attack someone in a high-security solar system, CONCORD will commit police brutality." - Encyclopedia Dramatica

If EVE is a PvP game, then Anti-Ganking is emergent gameplay.

Yang Aurilen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2015-08-29 12:52:53 UTC
What's a bounty? I keep losing it every time I log in.

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!

Tupac ice
Ascension Mining and Other Activities
#3 - 2015-08-29 12:55:21 UTC
So in flying my freighter along... With let's say a 1.5bill ship/fit combo... And inside I have x bill...I jump gate, a bounty of 1.5bil gets placed on me... And I'm targetable by any one...

...pass


I agree the bounty system is poor. I would suggest something along the lines of corpses, they get handed in for the relevant bounties with the full amount being load. Then how do we stop people just podding themselves and claiming the bounty... Damn it

Who the hell is this Tupac guy.... And what would he know?

  • Anonymous.
Alessienne Ellecon
Doomheim
#4 - 2015-08-29 12:58:32 UTC
Tupac ice wrote:
So in flying my freighter along... With let's say a 1.5bill ship/fit combo... And inside I have x bill...I jump gate, a bounty of 1.5bil gets placed on me... And I'm targetable by any one...

...pass


I agree the bounty system is poor. I would suggest something along the lines of corpses, they get handed in for the relevant bounties with the full amount being load. Then how do we stop people just podding themselves and claiming the bounty... Damn it



That's why I specified that you should only be able to put a bounty on someone who has actually wronged you or your corp. Then you actually deserve it, including the open season part.

"CONCORD are the space cops. If you attack someone in a high-security solar system, CONCORD will commit police brutality." - Encyclopedia Dramatica

If EVE is a PvP game, then Anti-Ganking is emergent gameplay.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#5 - 2015-08-29 13:04:21 UTC
Bounties are irrelevant, unless you're flying a loot piñata or already free to shoot at, very few are going to try and claim it.

There are people out there with 10's of billion in bounty, people still don't shoot at them.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Alessienne Ellecon
Doomheim
#6 - 2015-08-29 13:09:24 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Bounties are irrelevant, unless you're flying a loot piñata or already free to shoot at, very few are going to try and claim it.

There are people out there with 10's of billion in bounty, people still don't shoot at them.



Reread my post and you'll understand how the bounty system would be made relevant again.

"CONCORD are the space cops. If you attack someone in a high-security solar system, CONCORD will commit police brutality." - Encyclopedia Dramatica

If EVE is a PvP game, then Anti-Ganking is emergent gameplay.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#7 - 2015-08-29 13:21:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
I read your post, they still wouldn't be made relevant. They've been irrelevant since their introduction despite having been revised.

Also Features and Ideas would be a far better place to have posted this

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#8 - 2015-08-29 15:41:40 UTC
Alessienne Ellecon wrote:
The bounty system needs to be thoroughly revamped for a number of reasons:


  1. Troll bounties are fine for veterans who can handle having a a few million (or 100) on their heads, but they're upsetting and driving away new players and are just generally annoying. (I'm looking at you, 123456. Thank goodness for the angry snowflake who gave me a decent bounty.)
  2. The recent change intended to squash bounty exploits has effectively made the whole system completely useless except for pointlessly harassing people in starter corps.
  3. It's a pointless waste of isk.


After discussing this with my corpmates, I present the following solution:


  • Abolish the kill right system: people have been exploiting it anyway by transferring the kill right to an alt and locking it down with a billion isk activation cost. Replace it with open season on anyone who has a bounty greater than the gross estimated market value of their ship and fit.
  • Allow bounties to pay the full amount, but only allow a player to issue a bounty against someone who has attacked them, attacked their corp's POS or stolen cargo from a container (that would get me a king's ransom on my head before long :P ) outside of a corp war. If the parties' corps are at war, the bounty system will not apply.
  • If multiple parties in a fleet claim a bounty, divide the isk accordingly.
  • Add the option for players to pay off their bounties: the full value to CONCORD, then half again to the aggrieved player/s.


I tried to think of everything, but this is EVE and someone will invariably find an exploit.


So if you rob my corp hanger of everything in it, I can't put a bounty on you?

So if you bump my freighter 200km off the gate so it can be ganked, I can't put a bounty on you?

Look man, i'm sorry some silly people get their knickers in a twist because someone put a 100k bounty on them. But "Some random noob doesn't udnerstand that bounties dont equal killrights and freaked out about it" isn't a good reason to add the restrictions you're advocating.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Hellspawn01
Falcon Advanced Industries
#9 - 2015-08-29 17:39:34 UTC
I visited a channel and then found myself with a small bounty on my head. At first I didnt think much about it. Except that my avatar got ruined by a big WANTED sign. Then I lost my pod. A day later I was in the same channel again and *pling* got the same bounty on me by the same guy. When I asked him why he placed it, I got "no reason" back.

I feel my avatar got violated for literally no reason. I doubt we would get any defense against that. At least give us an option to hide the WANTED sign so we can continue to appreciate our avatars in full. Or perhaps make it much smaller.

333 - Only half evil.

Antylus Tyrell
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-08-29 17:51:05 UTC
Bounties mean nothing in a world where everyone is immortal. What is sad is seeing new players not understanding that, and throwing away their hard earned isk in a vain attempt for justice.

The current system really should be removed from the game. Since there really is no way of making a system that is both significant and not subject to major abuse.
Hellspawn01
Falcon Advanced Industries
#11 - 2015-08-29 17:57:19 UTC
See the number one player thats sitting at the bounty list? Hes just a trading alt... with 200bil ISK on his head and now serves as a advertising plattform for a twich channel and as a reserve bank.

333 - Only half evil.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#12 - 2015-08-29 18:34:04 UTC
Antylus Tyrell wrote:
Bounties mean nothing in a world where everyone is immortal. What is sad is seeing new players not understanding that, and throwing away their hard earned isk in a vain attempt for justice.

The current system really should be removed from the game. Since there really is no way of making a system that is both significant and not subject to major abuse.



Man a lot of people enjoy the bounty system. I bountied Mike Azariah at the start of CSM8, and instead of crying about being "violated" like a little baby, he owned it, and now last I looked his bounty is 15B. Aint stopping him from having fun.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Hellspawn01
Falcon Advanced Industries
#13 - 2015-08-29 19:15:25 UTC
Many people enjoyed fitting a cruise missile into a light missile launcher and reload after each shot. Doesnt mean it cant be improved. And it has.

333 - Only half evil.

Malt Zedong
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2015-08-29 19:22:01 UTC
Anything you do to spare new players of the harsh environment that New Eden is wont make them stay, just will delay their departing.

Anyone who are annoyed by bounty, will be since day 1 to the end of days. Anyone who dont care, wont care now, wont care then.

WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul.

Kiandoshia
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2015-08-29 19:46:32 UTC
Combine the killright system and the bounty system.

Get rid of sellable killrights.
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#16 - 2015-08-29 20:31:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
Tupac ice wrote:
So in flying my freighter along... With let's say a 1.5bill ship/fit combo... And inside I have x bill...I jump gate, a bounty of 1.5bil gets placed on me... And I'm targetable by any one...

...pass


I agree the bounty system is poor. I would suggest something along the lines of corpses, they get handed in for the relevant bounties with the full amount being load. Then how do we stop people just podding themselves and claiming the bounty... Damn it



Honestly the whole becoming available if your bounty is higher than your ship is not a bad way to get rid of the pricks with cheaper ships and makes a higher bounty a worthwhile royal pain in the ass to have on you. It's an extremely creative idea and so long as there is a buffer from immediate bounty placement I would love implementation. The only issue is newbies could be grief'd a whole ton with ship loss after ship loss into rage-quitting, unfortunately even if the whole bounty was payed out on death.


Tougher players would probably be fine and would be expected to tough it out like security status or killrights (it could even pseudo replace killright functionality without actual killright removal).

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?

Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#17 - 2015-08-29 20:35:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
Malt Zedong wrote:
Anything you do to spare new players of the harsh environment that New Eden is wont make them stay, just will delay their departing.

Anyone who are annoyed by bounty, will be since day 1 to the end of days. Anyone who dont care, wont care now, wont care then.



Giving bounties a combat availability if it's above your ship cost would make people care but put newbies more in the line of being farmable killboard padding.


Unfortunately a death payment doesn't work so well when people are immortal.


CCP has the daunting task of trying to make it a great system without people podding themselves for money. Ship insurance is a part of the exploit.

What If ship insurance was voided by a bounty payment?
What if a portion of bounty payed became a CONCORD debt to the guy who lost stuff for the bounty? But then more mechanics are required and people could just cancel the account to get away from bounty debt.

Making it more harsh might just balance it but it's not an easy solution.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?

Malt Zedong
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2015-08-29 20:53:20 UTC
The finance industry has a tool called risk management. It is used by other industries, but it originated in the TI industry actually, and goes like this:

- Information is organized data, so everything that cant be correctly bound by data is not information. Acting upon that as information would be assumption, ergo, risky.

You turn it to money and value, chance and outcome, and you can bring it to any kind of analisys.

If you make it impossible to cash in on your own demise or property destruction, but you allow that to be when someone else does kill or destroy your property, the only difference is that an alt or friend will do the same thing. There is no reason to change something that cant be prevented just to make it a bit harder but more rewarding. No data is added in the system to justify the hopes of more information coming out of it.

Almost everything that is not changed in the game, is based on that, by technique or intuition, devs try to know how effective changing will be before actually changing things.

The old immortal thing. Oh paradox.

If this is an issue, why botter fighting ? why bother trying to fend people off of places ? why competing ? why doing anything if you have free rookie ships, free base clones, free access to missions giving stuff and money. Why play at all ?

That is EVE. We gotta do here what we pose to ourselves as goal, without hoping game mechanics give us reason to play.

WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#19 - 2015-08-29 21:00:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Alessienne Ellecon wrote:
The bounty system needs to be thoroughly revamped for a number of reasons:


  1. Troll bounties are fine for veterans who can handle having a a few million (or 100) on their heads, but they're upsetting and driving away new players and are just generally annoying. (I'm looking at you, 123456. Thank goodness for the angry snowflake who gave me a decent bounty.)
  2. The recent change intended to squash bounty exploits has effectively made the whole system completely useless except for pointlessly harassing people in starter corps.
  3. It's a pointless waste of isk.


None of these reasons seem to have any particular foundation in reality. There's nothing to suggest that it drives people away or make anything annoying; it is far more useful now than it ever was; it does not waste ISK.

Quote:

  • Abolish the kill right system: people have been exploiting it anyway by transferring the kill right to an alt and locking it down with a billion isk activation cost. Replace it with open season on anyone who has a bounty greater than the gross estimated market value of their ship and fit.
  • Allow bounties to pay the full amount, but only allow a player to issue a bounty against someone who has attacked them, attacked their corp's POS or stolen cargo from a container (that would get me a king's ransom on my head before long :P ) outside of a corp war. If the parties' corps are at war, the bounty system will not apply.
  • If multiple parties in a fleet claim a bounty, divide the isk accordingly.
  • Add the option for players to pay off their bounties: the full value to CONCORD, then half again to the aggrieved player/s.



How is that in any way an exploit of the kill right system? If they want to keep a kill right for themselves, then what's it to you, and why would they go through such a needlessly roundabout way of doing it? Bounties are very deliberately something completely separate from aggression mechanics because it would be stupid to have two systems for the same thing, or one system to cover two use cases. Confusing the two is never the right way to go.

Allowing bounties to pay the full amount would reintroduce the exploits that made bounties pointless to begin with, and the restrictions for setting bounties make them even more meaningless than ever before. Players must be allowed to set them freely since there is no mechanical way of determining intent that will not be pointless and obtuse. Again, there's a reason why they're completely separate from aggression mechanics: one is mechanical punishment for in-game actions, another is a social punishment for player-to-player interaction. The two cannot serve the same purpose.

The only remotely sensible suggestion in your entire post is letting people pay off their bounties, but even then, all you've done is create a pretty silly newbie scamming mechanic.
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#20 - 2015-08-29 21:13:17 UTC
Inacting aggression mechanics on bounties would make people dislike having them, therefore making them an effective way of paying for someone else misery which I think is what bounties were meant for. Also a reward for their destruction. With a buffer between bounty and vulnerability to keep it from being a (can kill you for "this" much isk) exploit button.

It would turn even being in lowsec on bounty into an interesting thing, because like low security status you would be available for anyone to target without gate guns or a security status hit of your own, you would also be rewarded for winning as well.

I think it enhances the system. Issue with the mechanics being that way is it makes new-bros easy kills for spending a measly amount of isk. Which is entirely a reason not to connect aggression mechanics to bounties unless there was a non broken workaround for that as well. Just hoping someone can come up with one or a different fix to make bounties more meaningful.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?

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