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Target Painters and Missile Guidance Comps

Author
The Bigpuns
Touring New Eden
#1 - 2015-08-29 09:52:33 UTC
Morning all, been trying to do a bit of maths and its making my head hurt.

Doing PvE in my Golem, I usually have 4 target painters fitted. Would it be worth dropping one or two for a precision scripted Guidance Comp, due to the stacking penalties? Or is the Golems tp bonus big enough to make them still more effective?

Just for completeness, I rig with a calefaction and a flare II, and we can discount the tp falloff as I dont use mjd so am nearly always in optimal.

I guess the answer will be something like "doesnt make much difference". I only ask cos I got the question stuck in my head and it won't quit. Plus, some NPC's (namely Zor and the guy at the end of the Minnie epic arc) are immune to tp's, so do I lose much application, if any, by switching modules?

Apparently you can plug things like these into EFT's damage graphs, but I haven't had a chance to look yet.

Regards,

Puns
Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2015-08-29 13:07:21 UTC
Current consensus is:
Golem=
Rigor+Rigor+MGC+3x Painters for max application

However... depending on if you use FOF missiles your mileage may varry with MGC.


Assume in general a 1-5% reduction in effectiveness when comparing MGC vs a painter even considering stacking penalties.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3 - 2015-08-29 13:43:24 UTC
Nafensoriel wrote:
Current consensus is:
Assume in general a 1-5% reduction in effectiveness when comparing MGC vs a painter even considering stacking penalties.


If its 1-5% reduction in effectiveness with MGC vs painter, wouldnt the 2nd module be better with MGC?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#4 - 2015-08-29 14:54:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
I assume we're talking about cruise launchers with Fury ammunition for application. From what I recall, after two target painters a pair of precision-scripted missile guidance computers gives you the best damage application on a Golem. Your electronic, missile and Marauder skills as well as implants can affect this greatly (since implants aren't stacking penalized, they're often equivalent to a third rigor/flare or fourth target painter).

With Faction launchers and ammunition you almost offset the difference in raw damage with drastically improved damage application and rate of fire - enabling you to get rid of at least one damage application module. Where missile guidance computers really shine on the Golem is with torpedoes. This is a fit I run:

4x T2 torpedo launchers, Faction ammunition
2x T2 hydraulic rigs
1x Faction target painter
2x MGCs with both precision and range scripts

With +5 implants you get 45km range with Faction ammunition; 60km with range scripted (add 6-7km when in Bastion mode). With Javelin you can shoot out to almost 100km although I'd probably recommend a MJD as your maximum torpedo speed is going to be 5-6k/sec and it takes a long time for volleys to reach their targets at that range.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2015-08-29 18:14:54 UTC
imo in any solo situation the MGC is superior because you won't have to wait for cycle time to increase your damage application
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#6 - 2015-08-29 19:57:38 UTC
I run 1x Flare 1x Rigor, 2x TP, 1x MGE, and 1x MGC

I have almost no issues in pve, but it isn't actually a PvE boat.

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I invented Tiericide

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#7 - 2015-08-29 21:07:26 UTC
Nafensoriel wrote:
However... depending on if you use FOF missiles your mileage may varry with MGC.

FOF? on golem?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#8 - 2015-08-29 23:23:41 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
FOF? on golem?

Well, it would be a lot slower than using Fury ammunition - but still doable...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#9 - 2015-08-30 00:33:36 UTC
a bit slower, but you don't really have to pay attention. Just look over every min or two just to make sure you didn't reload and/or killed all the npcs.

as for the math dunno, I usually let people on the forums try it out for me. I also don't really fly missile boats so not really too worried on that bit either.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#10 - 2015-08-30 12:39:53 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
as for the math dunno, I usually let people on the forums try it out for me. I also don't really fly missile boats so not really too worried on that bit either.

With the auto-switching target feature on FoF missiles the DPS is comparable to Faction ammunition and manually switching targets. However, the total applied damage is about 20% less per ammunition rack.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

The Bigpuns
Touring New Eden
#11 - 2015-08-30 19:16:21 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I assume we're talking about cruise launchers with Fury ammunition for application. From what I recall, after two target painters a pair of precision-scripted missile guidance computers gives you the best damage application on a Golem. Your electronic, missile and Marauder skills as well as implants can affect this greatly (since implants aren't stacking penalized, they're often equivalent to a third rigor/flare or fourth target painter).

.


Sorry yes, exactly right, cruises and high damage ammo. Two tp's and two mgc's it is then. I might just see if I can work out the damage charts in eft.

I didn't like torps before, hadn't actually looked at them with these new modules, might be worth a shout.

Thanks for all the input guys o/
Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2015-08-30 20:32:43 UTC
Worth noting that RHML snakes are pretty much custom built for MGC.
100km range or frigate blaping application and a drone to keep you from wanting to kill yourself with a spoon while reloading.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#13 - 2015-08-31 00:54:53 UTC
Nafensoriel wrote:
... to keep you from wanting to kill yourself with a spoon while reloading.

No, it really doesn't... Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#14 - 2015-08-31 01:53:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Sobaan Tali
From my own personal testing, 3 RFTPs versus 2 RFTPs and an MGC scripted for precision made little difference, namely it seemingly hurting app more if one of the TPs missed a cycle. For me, that's my whole point of a third TP to begin with, to add module redundancy in case one of the buggers misses. I know someone might point out that RFTPs cost more than an MGC2, which they would be in fact correct. My counter would be to point out that RFTPs are dirt cheap and even more so inexpensive given the cost of the hull in the first place. It's what works for me, even if it may be different in someone else's eyes.

With respects to those who have found some resemblance of worth from the MGCs at least, the Golem in particular is really among the worst ships to argue that opinion. The healthy number of mids and now minimal need for many of them for tank since Rubi, coupled with the TP bonus the hull receives and very generous velocity buffs for Cruise missiles ensures MGCs are fairly low priority for people like myself. If you're running an FoF build (shudders), want to give torps a bit more range, or happen to run into those very scant few NPCs that are indeed TP immune and/or your TPs seem to miss too often for your taste, MGCs can be a decent substitute for TPs. Hell, you may just like them (or even the MGEs) more than TPs for sake of their ease of use. I even run an Orthrus with LMLs and an MGC2 for range for running high sec anoms and sigs. Not the best in the world, but that Modus look is super smexy, and the missile range actually synergises perfectly with my locking range.

Conservatively, I'd run with the TPs up to three at most for Cruise builds, regardless ammo used (except FoFs, shudders again) then start throwing MGCs on there, if anything. If you feel like leaning more on the MGCs than TPs, start trading mids. An MGE on a Golem -1 CNBCS adds around 15 meters ER, less than that in EV, and nearly 1000m/s velocity for as much as a 60dps cut. Again, up to you, though I would say MGCs certainly have a much better effect.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

The Bigpuns
Touring New Eden
#15 - 2015-08-31 09:00:50 UTC
With the short tp cycle times, I find they are finished before the launchers about 99% of the time. Might be different if rigged with a bay loading accelerator instead of calefaction. I use pwnage tp instead of rf (in fact, look at my killboard for my exact fit, lost one to a wartarget after not being careful and watching local).

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#16 - 2015-08-31 21:50:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
I'm finding that with Faction ammunition you can typically get away with a single TP - no rigors or MGCs needed.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#17 - 2015-08-31 22:32:19 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I'm finding that with Faction ammunition you can typically get away with a single TP - no rigors or MGCs needed.

can, but then you lose a lot of damage. and given the golem has a ton of extra slots you can run 2x mgc and 3x painter without much of a worry (kinda making a guess on stacking there). 1/3 if you want a prop mod.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

stoicfaux
#18 - 2015-08-31 23:13:20 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
imo in any solo situation the MGC is superior because you won't have to wait for cycle time to increase your damage application

Cruise cycle time is longer than TP cycle time + cruise missiles go fast. Especially the red thermal ones.



Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#19 - 2015-09-01 00:08:22 UTC
Wow, you nerds need to get out more.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#20 - 2015-09-01 00:28:04 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
Wow, you nerds need to get out more.

You mean like undock and quit station spinning?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

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