These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page12
 

Jump Fatigue, The Logi Plague and Super Capital Role changes
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#21 - 2015-08-26 14:33:48 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
OH Please remove remote reps, the tears from the Incursion community alone would be worth suffering any other negative affects of this change.

Overall I still say no to any form of removal or reduction of the jump fatigue mechanic since doing so would serve to increase force projection.
The argument made earlier about ISK boxer limitations is very short sighted. Remove or significantly reduce jump fatigue from the Black Ops ships and watch the instant change in fleet doctrines to using all black ops ships.



Nice injection! Stealth nerf to Incursion ISK/hr as ships have to utilize sufficient active tanks.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2015-08-26 15:37:38 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:


It might be unusual and disturbing for you and others to hear this from a goon in karma, but in my opinion the fleet with the better pilots should succeed, not numbers or ships as the predominant factor.
Succeeding doesn't necessarily mean winning a timer, or turbodunking hostiles. It can mean fighting outnumbered and picking off bad pilots, demoralizing the enemy with every skirmish.


Our morale is just so damn low with MoA picking off bads left, right and center.

Are you really believing what you type?
Viscount Hood
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#23 - 2015-08-26 15:57:02 UTC
I was playing Eve before Logi's were around so I remember what fleet battles were like.
Which basically involved accepting that if you were targeted you were going to blow up very quickly. The general comment from FC's was "shut up and die". Matches turned into who had the most numbers, or the biggest fastest hitters.

The primary setup was meta 4 artillery then later T2 Artillery. Given that the only ships available were battleships, cruisers and frigates, the only ships you saw were battleships. The only counter was fitting two warp core stabilisers which if you weren't lagged out and could spot that you were being targeted, meant you had the chance of warping out and then back in.

Later on we started fitting remote shield/armour boosters in place of one weapon and tried chained support which kind of worked. Then logi's came out which took some time before anyone could work out how to use them.

Now it is quite different with many different types of ships and many modules, and without logi's I think we'd just end up doing what we used to do.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2015-08-26 16:09:42 UTC
Viscount Hood wrote:
I was playing Eve before Logi's were around so I remember what fleet battles were like.
Which basically involved accepting that if you were targeted you were going to blow up very quickly. The general comment from FC's was "shut up and die". Matches turned into who had the most numbers, or the biggest fastest hitters.

The primary setup was meta 4 artillery then later T2 Artillery. Given that the only ships available were battleships, cruisers and frigates, the only ships you saw were battleships. The only counter was fitting two warp core stabilisers which if you weren't lagged out and could spot that you were being targeted, meant you had the chance of warping out and then back in.

Later on we started fitting remote shield/armour boosters in place of one weapon and tried chained support which kind of worked. Then logi's came out which took some time before anyone could work out how to use them.

Now it is quite different with many different types of ships and many modules, and without logi's I think we'd just end up doing what we used to do.


AoE DD also prevented logi from being on grid for some time IIRC.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#25 - 2015-08-26 16:49:43 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:


It might be unusual and disturbing for you and others to hear this from a goon in karma, but in my opinion the fleet with the better pilots should succeed, not numbers or ships as the predominant factor.
Succeeding doesn't necessarily mean winning a timer, or turbodunking hostiles. It can mean fighting outnumbered and picking off bad pilots, demoralizing the enemy with every skirmish.


Our morale is just so damn low with MoA picking off bads left, right and center.

Are you really believing what you type?




MoA isn't doing PvP. They're like a predator hunting the sick and weak animals.
They're making the goon population more healthy.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#26 - 2015-08-26 18:11:10 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Leto Aramaus wrote:
This thread is AIDS.

People suggesting complete removal of remote repair???

Completely remove fatigue from Blops?

This ridiculous "change logi to 1 module per ship = increased resists" idea again?

I'm opposed on all counts.



You know, bring in strong and reasonable arguments, and maybe you can make a point.


Arguing the merits for and against sh1t, is not going to change the fact hat you're looking at a vagrant in a very public area, that is in all likelihood, smelling up the place and reducing the quality of life for the rest of us...... Nah, its gotta be cleaned up and flushed away.

So I agree with Leto

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2015-08-26 19:22:00 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:


It might be unusual and disturbing for you and others to hear this from a goon in karma, but in my opinion the fleet with the better pilots should succeed, not numbers or ships as the predominant factor.
Succeeding doesn't necessarily mean winning a timer, or turbodunking hostiles. It can mean fighting outnumbered and picking off bad pilots, demoralizing the enemy with every skirmish.


Our morale is just so damn low with MoA picking off bads left, right and center.

Are you really believing what you type?




MoA isn't doing PvP. They're like a predator hunting the sick and weak animals.
They're making the goon population more healthy.




And that isn't PvP why?
Vandarra Deneroth
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2015-08-26 21:59:04 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Leto Aramaus wrote:
This thread is AIDS.

People suggesting complete removal of remote repair???

Completely remove fatigue from Blops?

This ridiculous "change logi to 1 module per ship = increased resists" idea again?

I'm opposed on all counts.



You know, bring in strong and reasonable arguments, and maybe you can make a point.
The more CCP has an overview of people's thoughts and their way to exploit proposed features, the better they can develop the game.

Solely on the RR topic:
Fights on large scale go like this: Volley lineship. RR keeping it alive? Try alphaing another one. RR keeping it alive? Try volleying their Logi. RR keeping it alive? Focus on the objective or gtfo.
Vice versa, if your lineships get blapped, you gtfo. If your logi gets blapped, gtfo.
And if you don't have 20 Guardians you don't even bother undocking.
Only on very important targets, like station timers for staging systemsa in Dominionsov, fleets and fcs would commit to a slugfest and accept losses while keeping shooting.
With Aegissov, such important targets are kinda gone, only when factions are both close to the required nodecount an all-out brawl becomes reasonable.

If we take away the unbreakable aspect of logiheavy fleets on certain scales people will have to arrange with the fact that their ship is at danger, even if your brackets outblot the sun.
Granted, this will not increase people's commitment to unimportant timers and objectives, but it will shake things up. Even heavily outnumbered, you might break hostiles.
Even in a 200 man fleet, 5 logi pilots are good for an undock.
Doctrines get more loose, as shield and armor ships can get mixed with relatively low effort.

On the topic of unimportant timers, that's a problem that's already been around in Dominionsov. It has to be the goal of Aegis to create more timers to be important, preferrably all.


People will engage more when they know they will lose more than now just because they can get a few KM? Because that's pretty much what nerfing logi bring anyway. The side with the better fleet will still win, the lesser side will still take losses until they manage to disengage and they will still not get the objective done.

I really want to be sure this is what people envision because it really sound like it would not happen to me.


Totally what i envision - because a fleet of 30 vs a fleet of 100 can still inflict significant losses if they outplay the fleet of 100 which can be achieved by better tactics. Right now there is no way a smaller fleet can outplay a larger force if that larger force is logi heavy.
Vandarra Deneroth
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2015-08-26 22:28:31 UTC
WarFireV wrote:
Do I have to do this again? Do I have to explain why removing Logi is so fundamentally bad?


Im not saying remove remote reps im saying there should be a limit on how much someone can be remote repaired at once. Right now - short of Alpha you try break each others reps - once you cant do that you try catch the logi off guard - when that fails you give up and go home.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#30 - 2015-08-26 23:17:19 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
OH Please remove remote reps, the tears from the Incursion community alone would be worth suffering any other negative affects of this change.

Overall I still say no to any form of removal or reduction of the jump fatigue mechanic since doing so would serve to increase force projection.
The argument made earlier about ISK boxer limitations is very short sighted. Remove or significantly reduce jump fatigue from the Black Ops ships and watch the instant change in fleet doctrines to using all black ops ships.


Some will maybe use BO as doctrine fits, but T1 battleships+logi will win over any BO fleet (close to equal numbers).
BO is about as good for pure combat as their T1 counterpart and have no real logi alternative, so the fleet taking gates will have access to a stronger fleet setup. BO are good for hotdropping, mostly done with superior numbers vs 1-2 guys, or done with higher isk losses and worse insurance cover.
Previous page12