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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

First post
Author
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#121 - 2015-08-25 19:33:18 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Devon Astrov wrote:
Logic check...

1. The assertion that high reward - low risk PVE starves low and null sec PVP opportunities.


And PVE opportunities. The problem with your assertion is that it suggest that people who care about this specific imbalance care because of PVP. The real problem with the imbalance is how it skews tings in the game.

Lots of incursion runners (myself included) aren't high sec people, we use this broken thing to safely fund other activities (and to PLEX).

This shouldn't be the case. When I started playing, if you wanted to make big isk with a shikp shooting npcs, you took big risk. Now you train up a ship, x up in a high sec incursion community chat channel (or on their web app), and follow the orders of an FC while mindlessly shooting npcs, without even have to personally glance at local or d-scan or be aware at all.

That's just not good game design, my choice should be 'modest but reasonable income should I choose to stay in safe space (which is my choice to make) or MUCH better income if i accept risk. Right now it's 'take risk/make less-no risk/make more'.

And i've tested it personally, 2 ways.

I make more with my incursion mach in high sec than I do with a mach and a tengu doing anomalies in null

And

I make more with my incursion mach than I do with the cheaper to lose ships I've used in the past (when I lived in low sec) to run low sec incursions, mainly because low sec incursions come with people trying to kill you. No CONCORD to save the day there.

It's all utter nonsense imo. Do I expect it to change? No, CCP is a great company, but PVE isn't their forte.



You do know that Incursions in Null Sec pay out far more and to a larger fleet number than the same Incursions in High Sec right?

So people are choosing to do the High Sec Incursions at a lower payout because they are risk adverse... that doesn't change if you remove Incursions from High Sec, just the name of the thing you campaign against will change.

Remove Incursions and people will run lvl 4s
Remove lvl 4's and people will run lvl 3s
Remove lvl 3s....

Get it? No I don't think you do.
People are not going to become your "balance" aka killboard fodder just because you nerf their income. Those same nullsec guys who you hate running alts in High Sec will simply downsize their contributions to Null Sec PVP because they won't be able to afford as much of it.

What you are asking for actually hurts Null Sec more than it helps. Cutting off Alt income stream means less isk to use in Null... at least using your metrics it would.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#122 - 2015-08-25 19:47:17 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:


You do know that Incursions in Null Sec pay out far more and to a larger fleet number than the same Incursions in High Sec right?

So people are choosing to do the High Sec Incursions at a lower payout because they are risk adverse... that doesn't change if you remove Incursions from High Sec, just the name of the thing you campaign against will change.

Remove Incursions and people will run lvl 4s
Remove lvl 4's and people will run lvl 3s
Remove lvl 3s....

Get it? No I don't think you do.
People are not going to become your "balance" aka killboard fodder just because you nerf their income. Those same nullsec guys who you hate running alts in High Sec will simply downsize their contributions to Null Sec PVP because they won't be able to afford as much of it.

What you are asking for actually hurts Null Sec more than it helps. Cutting off Alt income stream means less isk to use in Null... at least using your metrics it would.


Fixing isn't removing. The idea that an unbalanced thing must remain untouched 'because people will do something else' is simpyl a cop out (and a self serving one at that)

And Killboard fodder? WTF is wrong with you, how many time must you be told that I don't give a flip about that? There are enough people to kill in null for those so inclined. Again i ask, is the truth so foiregn to you that you can't understand it?

And if fixing the imbalance means risk averse null sec types can't kill as much because they are too pansy to make their isk in their own space rather than rent it out, Good, they don't deserve to be fighting in null if they can't let go of the high sec teet.

A properly functioning risk reward scheme (that we once had before CCP decided that the game didn't have enough PVE) benifits everyone, but especially people who aren't afraid to risk space pixels to make space bucks.

You are arguing against proper game design why? You don't run incursions, so CCP adjusting them doesn't affect you right? You pvp so why the interest in PVE. I'm a professional PVEr (pvp is a sideline), good and well balanced PVE is what I'd like to see, but what i can't understand is what is motivating you to flap around denying a truth that you don't even participate in.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#123 - 2015-08-25 19:47:26 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
AtramLolipop wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
AtramLolipop wrote:

AND CCP also produced a graph and are report documenting ISK in the economy and it roots... I wonder which graph i'd prefer to look at?



Could you link that, if its not too much trouble?


Will try to find it, from memory, the last time everyone pointed fingers at HS incursions, this report came out from CCP and it pretty much killed the debate. Although, if i remember correctly, it resulted in CCP making some changes to spawn rates as well as the reduction in the number of HS incursions. Even at it peak HS incursions represented only a minute amount isk that was generated. That might have changed fractionally, in my opinion it is all in proportion.



Here

Also, Incursions are such a non-factor given that Blue loot from wormholes blows it away and NPC buy orders on goods make it look like a side hobby of snobs.

Jenn just likes to sensationalize that which he doesn't like


I haven't sensationalized anything. You can attempt to downplay your massive mistake in linking a chart to proved you wrong (funny wathcing you scquirm, it was you who 1st mentioned the fact that there were so few incursion runners as well), but you're still wrong.

Blue Loot comes from wormholes. Wormholes aren't protected by CONCORD, so that kind of wealth generation is fine. What isn't fine is a 'few hundred characters' generating so much wealth as to come in 3rd (in just raw isk generation, not even talking about wealth generation) behind what is hundreds of thousands of characters.

I will never understand the personality that is so anti-truth that it has to basically lie about some stats in a video game.


And again, the ISK generation is close to nothing in the case of incursion because they get burned out of the game about as fast as they came in. All the ISK could be generated by a single player and it would not matter because that ISK also get burned. The economy don't actually see most of those ISK. It only appear on the graph because CCP didn't think incursion should only pay out in LP but at the exact same time, built the LP store so every single one of those ISK would be flushed as soon as the LP gets used.

If high-sec had a completely unlimited number of sites available and everybody started running them, ONLY THEN would the ISK generated really start to matter because the LP value might crash so ahrd it would not be worth the hassle for a lot of player to turn those LP in items for the market but this is nowhere near the case right now. The value of the LPs are high enough that the ISK gained for each site DOES get burned out and thus stop existing in the economy.

As I said in another thread, the key to nerfing incursion in HS are simple. There are even a few options if CCP is willing to go that way. The easyest is of course to take them from 70% payout to 50 or even lower. This mean the LS and null ones keep their current payout level. If they want player to generate additionnal risk, then they have to be crafty. The key is to play on the bear mentality imo. High-sec bears will be high-sec bears. This mean a shitload of people will run max gank to optimise their income. If you nerf the damage output of the sites, it means people will go with lower tank fits which can become gankable.

The current fits were not though out with countering ganks in mind. All it ever involved was having enough tank to survive in a site. They all roll with "survive sites worst possible spawn" in mind. If the worst sites is lower, you can bet they will trade in that extra invuln for a tracking comp or whatever. The logi wing will also more than likely be reduced to get extra dps boat on board to clear faster.

But Frostys, that only increase their potential income!!!!!

Well yeah but I never said you could not nerf both. Only that to increase the risk you would ahvhe to do something they won't think of as a total block out of the content. If you make incursion system behave like low sec, the community will more than likely gets reduced which mean the content is borderline useless. If you nerf it and it's payout, you can keep the same income or lower as long as you do your math right while also making the bears used "stupider" fits. At that point, player can come back to generate risk in incursion runners' income stream. You will see shitfit incursion boat with minimal tank if it takes minimal tank to run a site for the exact same reasons you see minimal tank freighters, miners or mission runners. The only reason the incursion runnres never fitted as low a tank as those is because they could not. You just cannot survive a site if you are below a certain threshold. The PvE player think he is safe becuse he survive the content he is running. Most of the don't think about the other "content" they are currently "running", being someone else's "red chevron".

Don't remove them. It's just scrapping content for no reasons. Re-balance them instead and don't worry, EVE will provide shitfit ship in incursion just like it does in missions, mining and hauling. The supply of shitfit is limitless so risk generation is limited by the will of the generator unless the content force a tank build.

Everybody could do all missions in high tanked marauder which would be stupid to try to gank but they don't. They won't for incursion either as long as they actually can.

TLDR : Nerf the income and "nerf" the fits. Making special rules is not needed anyway.
GeorgePenken
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#124 - 2015-08-25 19:50:48 UTC  |  Edited by: GeorgePenken
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
AtramLolipop wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
AtramLolipop wrote:

AND CCP also produced a graph and are report documenting ISK in the economy and it roots... I wonder which graph i'd prefer to look at?



Could you link that, if its not too much trouble?


Will try to find it, from memory, the last time everyone pointed fingers at HS incursions, this report came out from CCP and it pretty much killed the debate. Although, if i remember correctly, it resulted in CCP making some changes to spawn rates as well as the reduction in the number of HS incursions. Even at it peak HS incursions represented only a minute amount isk that was generated. That might have changed fractionally, in my opinion it is all in proportion.



Here

Also, Incursions are such a non-factor given that Blue loot from wormholes blows it away and NPC buy orders on goods make it look like a side hobby of snobs.

Jenn just likes to sensationalize that which he doesn't like


Still - I bet people claim incursions are ruining not just null sec but the entire game. It's plain and simple the people that are spoiling null sec are the very players in null sec. You're the ones joining blobs and flocking sheep. Just because CCP took away your caps, and changed SOV so that you actually have to defend it and you actually have to use the space your have stuck your flag on.... HTFU or GTFO. This is a new era of Eve and it's clear to see from these changes how they want the game to play out over the next 10 years!
GeorgePenken
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#125 - 2015-08-25 19:58:26 UTC  |  Edited by: GeorgePenken
Frostys Virpio wrote:


And again, the ISK generation is close to nothing in the case of incursion because they get burned out of the game about as fast as they came in. All the ISK could be generated by a single player and it would not matter because that ISK also get burned. The economy don't actually see most of those ISK. It only appear on the graph because CCP didn't think incursion should only pay out in LP but at the exact same time, built the LP store so every single one of those ISK would be flushed as soon as the LP gets used.

If high-sec had a completely unlimited number of sites available and everybody started running them, ONLY THEN would the ISK generated really start to matter because the LP value might crash so ahrd it would not be worth the hassle for a lot of player to turn those LP in items for the market but this is nowhere near the case right now. The value of the LPs are high enough that the ISK gained for each site DOES get burned out and thus stop existing in the economy.

As I said in another thread, the key to nerfing incursion in HS are simple. There are even a few options if CCP is willing to go that way. The easyest is of course to take them from 70% payout to 50 or even lower. This mean the LS and null ones keep their current payout level. If they want player to generate additionnal risk, then they have to be crafty. The key is to play on the bear mentality imo. High-sec bears will be high-sec bears. This mean a shitload of people will run max gank to optimise their income. If you nerf the damage output of the sites, it means people will go with lower tank fits which can become gankable.

The current fits were not though out with countering ganks in mind. All it ever involved was having enough tank to survive in a site. They all roll with "survive sites worst possible spawn" in mind. If the worst sites is lower, you can bet they will trade in that extra invuln for a tracking comp or whatever. The logi wing will also more than likely be reduced to get extra dps boat on board to clear faster.

But Frostys, that only increase their potential income!!!!!

Well yeah but I never said you could not nerf both. Only that to increase the risk you would ahvhe to do something they won't think of as a total block out of the content. If you make incursion system behave like low sec, the community will more than likely gets reduced which mean the content is borderline useless. If you nerf it and it's payout, you can keep the same income or lower as long as you do your math right while also making the bears used "stupider" fits. At that point, player can come back to generate risk in incursion runners' income stream. You will see shitfit incursion boat with minimal tank if it takes minimal tank to run a site for the exact same reasons you see minimal tank freighters, miners or mission runners. The only reason the incursion runnres never fitted as low a tank as those is because they could not. You just cannot survive a site if you are below a certain threshold. The PvE player think he is safe becuse he survive the content he is running. Most of the don't think about the other "content" they are currently "running", being someone else's "red chevron".

Don't remove them. It's just scrapping content for no reasons. Re-balance them instead and don't worry, EVE will provide shitfit ship in incursion just like it does in missions, mining and hauling. The supply of shitfit is limitless so risk generation is limited by the will of the generator unless the content force a tank build.

Everybody could do all missions in high tanked marauder which would be stupid to try to gank but they don't. They won't for incursion either as long as they actually can.

TLDR : Nerf the income and "nerf" the fits. Making special rules is not needed anyway.


Nothing needs nerfing and that's that.
Astral Azizora
Doomheim
#126 - 2015-08-25 20:05:40 UTC
Ignoring the off-topic incursion crap...

1) MMORPGs generally are losing players. The people who grew up with them are bored of them and have less free time, and the new generation are playing games that you can pick up and play and get almost instant fun, which ties in with my next point...

2) The ratio of time spent in EVE vs reward gained compared to other games is bad. It takes too long to do things. And don't come in with your day one hero tackler crap either. I'm talking about the actual mechanics of the game itself and the training times. Just moving around the gameworld takes significant amounts of time. Finding or creating content involves lots of waiting, searching, and travel. People are losing patience with such game mechanics, they want more bang for their buck.

So what can CCP do? Probably not much without radically altering their game and causing a tsunami of vet tears. They will continue to tweak but the game market has moved on.

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#127 - 2015-08-25 20:10:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
Astral Azizora wrote:
Ignoring the off-topic incursion crap...

1) MMORPGs generally are losing players. The people who grew up with them are bored of them and have less free time, and the new generation are playing games that you can pick up and play and get almost instant fun, which ties in with my next point...

2) The ratio of time spent in EVE vs reward gained compared to other games is bad. It takes too long to do things. And don't come in with your day one hero tackler crap either. I'm talking about the actual mechanics of the game itself and the training times. Just moving around the gameworld takes significant amounts of time. Finding or creating content involves lots of waiting, searching, and travel. People are losing patience with such game mechanics, they want more bang for their buck.

So what can CCP do? Probably not much without radically altering their game and causing a tsunami of vet tears. They will continue to tweak but the game market has moved on.



If the game really is on this decline, then we'll see the bottom line at some point. Every departing group because their "time to content" threshold is broken means the group at the next threshold just lost more potential targets making their own search for "content" longer.

It's kind of a core issue with PvP game. Once the population goes on the decline, it's hard to stop because the content of the game itself is leaving. PvE games can inject content as long as they have developpement budget.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#128 - 2015-08-25 20:11:10 UTC
Astral Azizora wrote:
Ignoring the off-topic incursion crap...

1) MMORPGs generally are losing players. The people who grew up with them are bored of them and have less free time, and the new generation are playing games that you can pick up and play and get almost instant fun, which ties in with my next point...

2) The ratio of time spent in EVE vs reward gained compared to other games is bad. It takes too long to do things. And don't come in with your day one hero tackler crap either. I'm talking about the actual mechanics of the game itself and the training times. Just moving around the gameworld takes significant amounts of time. Finding or creating content involves lots of waiting, searching, and travel. People are losing patience with such game mechanics, they want more bang for their buck.

So what can CCP do? Probably not much without radically altering their game and causing a tsunami of vet tears. They will continue to tweak but the game market has moved on.



1) Indeed, the younger generation of players is much more instant gratification. They want to login and pick up, log out and put down. The time sink of EVE is not appealing. The time sink of WOW is also not appealing. It is a changing market, something that an already niche game like EVE is going to struggle with. World of Warships, GTA V is much preferable over the second full time job with no retirement known as Eve Online.

2) The bliss of Eve for many of us came from the Journey not the play. We all did things to grow our characters, grow our stats, grow our skills, grow our experience. Once we got to the point where we did everything, figured out what works and what doesn't we either A) don't want changes to the way things were, or B) got bored with nothing new to grow into.

#2 is a bigger problem in my opinion. Wormholes were brought to us in an expansion and the game exploded with numbers. It was probably the last great hurrah as it was truly new and uniqueish in the game of Eve... we will probably never see another transformational expansion like that again.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2015-08-25 20:11:59 UTC
GeorgePenken wrote:
Nothing needs nerfing and that's that.



The massive amount of evidence you have provided has done swung my mind around to your line of thinkin'
Salvos Rhoska
#130 - 2015-08-25 20:20:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
There are most definitely market bots. Sometimes I'll need to buy several of a certain item, and the cheapest one on the market will have a quantity of 1. So I'll buy that one first. The market window lags for a second as the market updates and removes the one I bought... and wouldn't you know! There is a new sell order of 1 for the exact price I just paid for the first item. So I buy that one... Then a new sell order of 1 at the same price takes it's place. Over and over. I look at my market journal, I just bought 6 items at the same price from the same character... one at a time.

I don't see how it is possible for someone to know exactly when one of their items sold, and place a new sell order at the appropriate price, all within the second or so time frame that it takes for the market to update for me when I buy something. Obviously a bot, and an actual person trying to have the lowest sell order on this item would not be able to do so.

Whenever I notice this happening I report the player as a bot. Dunno if CCP actually does anything about it or not.


If you are right, then its a serious problem.

Are you talking about superpopulated markets?
How long for, and how consitently, have you been seeing this behavior?

My station experience, as for many, is mostly just dumping what I got, for whatever I can get, if its not currently too underpriced in buy orders.

One of the problems with HS markets in particular, is that they house trading alts from players otherwise occupied in ALL areas of EVE.

I dont think its bots, as it would be, to my admitedly limited understanding of these things, very difficult and nigh on impossible to design and program a bot so complex that it can run through the market interfaces for various commodities, read their prices, make any sense of that, and buy/sell accordingly. More likely is that its justnplayers far more compulsive than you or I.

Related to that, in all of EVE space, nowhere is as crammed with alts, as are HS hubs.
The amount of player interaction in Jita at peaks (and surrounding systems) in terms of station traders and economic pvp overshadows even the largest fleet battles. I cant confirm figures, but Id venture the conjecture that for atleast 50% of all of EVEs active accounts, there is 1 alt sitting in Jita.

Having said that, competition is good.
Station trading is PvP, of a sorts.
But it doesnt do justice to the wide expanse of EVE, the efforts of traders elsewhere, or the game itself, thatbso much commerce is focused in so many SECURE systems, with safe transit largely to and from of material, with so little overhead on trading itself in terms of tax.

The higher the commodity exchnage of a system, the higher its tax should be, or inversly, increase HS tax rates nominally.
Its the perfect place for an isk sink, and to promote commerce elsewhere.

A pure capitalist sentiment would say that no holds barred creates equality, through competition.
And they would be right. Jita remains absolutely the most lucrative location (in terms of competition on sale value) for just about all commodities sourced anywhere in the universe. For traders the enormous volume can produce enormous profits if they hit the sweet spot, and if not, they can hold off until it happens.

The reason for this is HS is an artificially non-dynamic environment secured by NPC control, with itself no risk/demand/amibition.
NPCs dont care if you screw them upside down or rob them blind from now till forever.
No real world market or environment operates this way, for obvious reasons, all of which included and integral in capitalist theory.

Bur is it a good thing for the game overall, that all roads, and much of product, leads to Jita?
I think its fking sad, and a failure in the system, that most anyone, anywhere, looks at eve central market rates throughout, and opts for the same end destination.

Trade and commerce needs dispersal.

HS trade tax is one way to do that.
Unfortunately Im not an economist, best I did was a B in highschool ages ago in this subject.
And its unlikely the traders benefiting from this current situation will offer alternatives, as they stand to profit from the current one.

But Id like to see trade and commodity value disperse throughout the EVE universe.
Jita has proven the capitalist ideal of no intervention.
I offer onto CCP, the suggestion that diversifying trade across many systems, may yield a higher net result, and more development and dynamism in the economics system. Inline with capitalist theory, Jita and other HS NPC hub owners should be the ones that also skim off the cream, but currently, they arent. And as an NPC entity, and essentially a isk sink, who cares.

For lore reasons promote it as HS faction shareholders wanting a larger cut of their enormous station traffic. Hardly unreasonable.
IRL any such hub would be charging enormous premiums for the privilege of doing business in their system.
This is where the capitalist theory fails to realize completely in EVE. The owners of the station are content with a pittance, despite their overwhelming demand, because they are NPCs.

" Biggest trade hub in the universe? Oh. Better charge the same as the shittiest empty trade hub in the universe!"
Makes no goddam sense.

HS hubs need economic and fiscal disconnection from LS and NS hubs, by means of tax.
As it is, this HS centric trade/production/sourcing/transport safety is hurting the game by bleeding everything, invariably, back to HS.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#131 - 2015-08-25 20:57:37 UTC
Do you know what's wrong with EVE? People. They pretend to play the game in a way and the game is not designed to work that way.

CCP says: "If you do A, B and C, you will quit. Please, refrain from doing A, B and C. Very, very please."
The elite says: "If you do A, B and C, you're an idiot. Refrain from doing A, B and C, you idiot. Go back to WoW you idiot."

And yet people do A, B and C, and CCP sees them quit and wonder what should they do... as long as it's not in the line of working on A, B and C. Let alone turn A, B and C into viable ways of playing the game.

In many ways, it doesn't matters. The Rubicon Plan was wrong in 2013 and still is, since it adressed the wrong question.

What we see now is the answer to "What do like to do the economically inviable minority that stays? Why do players stay? What are we doing right?"

But the real question CCP should have asked and answered was:

"What did like to do the massive majority of people who stopped being our customers? Why do players quit? What are we doing so horribly wrong?"

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#132 - 2015-08-25 21:02:45 UTC
Hipqo wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Mir Jana wrote:
today I logged in at 14793 online.....




One day last month I logged on there was just 1 player online, so EVE was dead.

Am I playing this doom and gloom end of the world stuff right?


Edit:

Yeah, there really was just 1


Provide proff or it didnt happen.
In all my time playing EVE, ive ever only seen this in the few mins after DT. Theres ALWAYS more then 1 player online, always.
Unless you are on SISI ofc, then its plausible.

OMG

http://i.imgur.com/6fQneTV.png
voetius
Grundrisse
#133 - 2015-08-25 21:06:41 UTC
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

But that wasnt a computer, machine or bot.
That was other players.

As far as I know there is no bot advanced enough available in public access (allowing for the real possibility that IRL markets may have programs that automate buying/selling at certain thresholds) that could work through EVE to achieve that result in an automated fashion.

Some traders just really are that crazy and (as is extremely relevant to trading) operating in the same hours as you.

I understand your frustration, and that you attempted strategies, but I dont see the reaction could be automated.
It was players 0.01ing you, manually.



There are most definitely market bots. Whenever I notice this happening I report the player as a bot.


This is a common refrain. I'm not denying that there could be market bots, but if you are so sure you should report them to CCP and state the reason why you are so sure.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#134 - 2015-08-25 21:35:05 UTC
Astral Azizora wrote:
There are other MMOs and other competitive online games that provide more fun per play session. A lot of EVE time is spent traveling, waiting or searching. You basically get less fun in return for your time investment. The pool of people who are content with that is limited, and as the vets get older they can't be bothered with it any more and prefer something with, dare I say it, more immediate rewards.


You have a point. The time you need to spend searching, scouting, bookmarking, scouting again, then D-scan spamming when attempting to do WHs isn't very enjoyable.
Salvos Rhoska
#135 - 2015-08-25 21:41:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
voetius wrote:


This is a common refrain. I'm not denying that there could be market bots, but if you are so sure you should report them to CCP and state the reason why you are so sure.

I personally dont believe there are.

A bot that can navigate through all of the market interfaces, gumps and confirmation screens, not to mention reading the prices and making sense of them, sounds very improbable to me, and invariably would become publicly known. UO had problems with hacks, but those involved downloading and runninf (stupidly) exe files or circumventing the games own loppholes. WoW has various nefarious moneysellers, but to my knowledge even there no bot has ever been developed that can actually automate reading prices and then buying/selling. If one exists, thats some NSA level stuff and whoever developed it needs to be either recruited or declared a public enemy.

Furthermore, if one did exist, I think markets would be far more fked than now.

Imo the problem these players are experiencing, is typically trading in superhubs that house large numbers of dedicated players from all regions of EVE, on alts, some of whom are either professional traders or just flat out very good at what they do, or have so much capital that they can play, intelligently, the long run. That and the smaller guys who ofc 0.01 them either in their own trading, or costhey are some random guy who arrived with commodity and hopes for a quick sale.

Having said that, most people are incredibly stupid when it comes to trading, which can either work in favor of or against real traders. The stupid arriving seller will, quite simply, always place 0,01isk price below the lowest seller. This is not entirely stupid, considering that means he can still undercut lowest seller. By comparison, it would even more stupid to undercut by 1mil (though some traders do this deliberately and intelligently, to lower the price, so as to buy up the subsequen idiot 0.01ers beyond that, unless another trader buys their cheap goods first). But it is very short sighted from the perspective of more advanced trading models.

Nonetheless, just about everyone (unless otherwise motivated) will undercut by 0.01, atleast, always.
This leads to the perception that its a bot, whereas infact its just everyone else trying to make a sale with most possible profit at the lowest end of the price list.

Im still perpetually confused by ridiculously low buy orders, and ridiculously high sell orders, throughout all space.
I have no idea what thats about, but I ultimately chalk those off as human stupidity.
(Nvm, I think I just figured it. Perhaps an attempt to skew the sale gump regional aggregate +/-%?)
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#136 - 2015-08-25 21:44:55 UTC
Guttripper wrote:
Eve went from being fun to another form of work, except this time I am not getting paid. So while my accounts are active, they are idle as I pursue other forms of entertainment.

What work? It's easier to make isk than it was years ago. The problem is, people relying on PLEX to keep them in game, so yes turn EVE into work. But hey, PLEX will hit 2 Billion+ soon enough, it will - count on it, and those that cant ISK their PLEX nor want to pay - refuse to pay ~$15/mo are going to quit, and imo good riddance Smile

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#137 - 2015-08-25 21:46:08 UTC
An interesting thing is to hang out in the Mining or Hauling chat channels. Most of the guys are younger players, asking questions similar to the ones you'd see in newb corp chat. What's interesting is that, with asking, "Anyone have a fit for a Procurer?" or "Why do hauling contracts pay so little?", they're discussing the danger of being ganked. Like, about 1/3 to 1/2 of the chat content is about gank peril.

Is that bad? Good? Whatever anyone's personal opinion, it's different than a when I started, at least. New players now have to be more PVP-aware, from the very start. So they have to be a little different personality type to like the game and grow into it. Does that mean more people joining and staying in the game, or less? Who knows.
Astral Azizora
Doomheim
#138 - 2015-08-25 21:50:05 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I personally dont believe there are.


Perhaps you should personally use Google.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#139 - 2015-08-25 21:56:45 UTC
voetius wrote:
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

But that wasnt a computer, machine or bot.
That was other players.

As far as I know there is no bot advanced enough available in public access (allowing for the real possibility that IRL markets may have programs that automate buying/selling at certain thresholds) that could work through EVE to achieve that result in an automated fashion.

Some traders just really are that crazy and (as is extremely relevant to trading) operating in the same hours as you.

I understand your frustration, and that you attempted strategies, but I dont see the reaction could be automated.
It was players 0.01ing you, manually.



There are most definitely market bots. Whenever I notice this happening I report the player as a bot.


This is a common refrain. I'm not denying that there could be market bots, but if you are so sure you should report them to CCP and state the reason why you are so sure.
There's no could be about it, while probably not as prolific or visible as mission and mining bots, there are market bots being used by players in the trade hubs. Suspected bots do get reported and AFAIK CCP investigate and analyse logs on a regular basis looking for patterns that indicate bot-like activities and to filter out erroneous reports from players.

CCP, as with every other MMO developer, have been fighting a war against such automation for years and ban offenders regularly.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Salvos Rhoska
#140 - 2015-08-25 21:58:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Astral Azizora wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I personally dont believe there are.


Perhaps you should personally use Google.


Ok. I just did.

Mostly I see speculative posts on various forums, and then s few sites who claim to provide one.

Are you saying you know of a program that is capable of automated buying/selling in EVE?

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

CCP, as with every other MMO developer, have been fighting a war against such automation for years and ban offenders regularly.


So you know of instances of players banned for automated buying/selling in EVE?
Not just from hearsay or reading about it or something like that?

Im cynical, nothing personal.