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Want to put my ISK to work and a buddy suggested offering Loans.
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Jaxic
Holey Roamin' Empire
TURBOFEED OR GLORY
#1 - 2015-08-25 15:15:41 UTC
Asked my Corp how I can put my ISK to work and someone suggested Loans. With this being EVE I imagine I can quickly screw up and just end up giving my ISK away like an idiot.

Could someone that has some experience with this give me some advice on how I can use my capital to fund loans so it can go to work for me instead of just sitting in my wallet. Curious how I can protect my interests while helping out some fellow players with a temporary infusion of cash.

Thanks
JitaGodess
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2015-08-25 15:28:31 UTC
Loans which i tend to see offered here, are mainly only collateralized, and in doing so requires a 3rd party usually, who holds onto said collateral. Depending on what is used for collateral, it is usually to the value of 110% or higher for the value of loan required.

Interest, am not to sure on, perhaps 5% a month or something like that.

Please Evemail me if I win.
Jaxic
Holey Roamin' Empire
TURBOFEED OR GLORY
#3 - 2015-08-25 15:34:23 UTC
JitaGodess wrote:
Loans which i tend to see offered here, are mainly only collateralized, and in doing so requires a 3rd party usually, who holds onto said collateral. Depending on what is used for collateral, it is usually to the value of 110% or higher for the value of loan required.

Interest, am not to sure on, perhaps 5% a month or something like that.


That makes sense, are there some third parties that are proven to be reliable? Seems to be the scariest part of this process.
JitaGodess
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2015-08-25 15:39:56 UTC
Jaxic wrote:
JitaGodess wrote:
Loans which i tend to see offered here, are mainly only collateralized, and in doing so requires a 3rd party usually, who holds onto said collateral. Depending on what is used for collateral, it is usually to the value of 110% or higher for the value of loan required.

Interest, am not to sure on, perhaps 5% a month or something like that.


That makes sense, are there some third parties that are proven to be reliable? Seems to be the scariest part of this process.


Grendell, RAW23 or Chribba are used i think.

Please Evemail me if I win.
Bob Maths
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2015-08-25 15:50:40 UTC
Why are there loans at all if the collateral is 110% higher than the liquid gained from the loan? "I want a loan for a billion, oh so I give you 1.1bn in return. Hooray! And then I pay you back!"
JitaGodess
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2015-08-25 15:57:34 UTC
Bob Maths wrote:
Why are there loans at all if the collateral is 110% higher than the liquid gained from the loan? "I want a loan for a billion, oh so I give you 1.1bn in return. Hooray! And then I pay you back!"



Sometime people don't want to sell off assets to fund another project.
Sometimes the assets which people have are more obscure or difficult to sell, so getting a loan is a quicker method of raising the isk. i.e. alliance tournament ships, bpos ect.

The collateral tends to be 10% higher than the loan amount to normalize market fluctuations, and also as a security to prevent people posing as a person requiring a loan with some bpos as collateral, only to take the loan and default, thus "selling" the bpo with no hassle.

Please Evemail me if I win.
Jaxic
Holey Roamin' Empire
TURBOFEED OR GLORY
#7 - 2015-08-25 15:58:32 UTC
Bob Maths wrote:
Why are there loans at all if the collateral is 110% higher than the liquid gained from the loan? "I want a loan for a billion, oh so I give you 1.1bn in return. Hooray! And then I pay you back!"


My first guess would be they have assets they are sitting on that they would rather not liquidate but can put to use for a loan. Putting equity to work is quite common IRL.
Xtreem
Knockaround Guys Inc.
#8 - 2015-08-25 16:10:14 UTC
It depends on how much isk you have and what returns you are willing to get, recently due to lack of decent loans, posts that have a good collateral are being negotiated to a lower rate by potential investors rather than the OP. If you have the collat it's a borrowers market currently, unless you are willing to risk higher rates but less/no collat (it is also a scammers market)
Cista2
EVE Museum
#9 - 2015-08-25 16:37:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Cista2
Xtreem wrote:
It depends on how much isk you have and what returns you are willing to get, recently due to lack of decent loans, posts that have a good collateral are being negotiated to a lower rate by potential investors rather than the OP. If you have the collat it's a borrowers market currently, unless you are willing to risk higher rates but less/no collat (it is also a scammers market)

Collateralised loans are traditionally around 2% per month. Those are not negotiated, but the recent ones that were offered at 5% have been negotiated down by people eager to get their money working.

It's worth keeping an eye out for uncollateralised loans with good interest rates as well. I have been offering such loans for many years, as has Rykker Bow.
I have also recently invested in 3 different uncollateralised loans myself (at rates over 10% per month). Those new players have a difficult time gaining credibility, as you can see if you flip through the first pages of this forums. But it is possible, Pileasure Hub seems the best example of someone new(ish) that has gotten several bonds filled. There is another big scheme going on atm with the huja bonds , but I have no idea who those people are that are investing in that, I am not sure that will end well.

My channel: "Signatures" -
Jaxic
Holey Roamin' Empire
TURBOFEED OR GLORY
#10 - 2015-08-25 16:40:52 UTC
Cista2 wrote:
Xtreem wrote:
It depends on how much isk you have and what returns you are willing to get, recently due to lack of decent loans, posts that have a good collateral are being negotiated to a lower rate by potential investors rather than the OP. If you have the collat it's a borrowers market currently, unless you are willing to risk higher rates but less/no collat (it is also a scammers market)

Collateralised loans are traditionally around 2% per month. Those are not negotiated, but the recent ones that were offered at 5% have been negotiated down by people eager to get their money working.

It's worth keeping an eye out for uncollateralised loans with good interest rates as well. I have been offering such loans for many years, as has Rykker Bow. I have also recently invested in 3 different uncollateralised loans myself (at rates over 10% per month).


I don't know if I have the trust needed to offer with no collateral. Knowing my luck it would go from a loan to a donation pretty fast. How are you "assured" a return on these?
Cista2
EVE Museum
#11 - 2015-08-25 16:47:01 UTC
Jaxic wrote:


I don't know if I have the trust needed to offer with no collateral. Knowing my luck it would go from a loan to a donation pretty fast. How are you "assured" a return on these?

I added some more text in my first post.

It's a matter of gauging between some factors, primarily
- is the person known at all
- is the scheme realistic
- does he present a good story? That one is really important to me. And in fact, new people often offer API access or data from EVE Mogul. This means that anyone can verify if their story sticks.
- who are the people that applaud this offering, and invest in it.

My channel: "Signatures" -
Jaxic
Holey Roamin' Empire
TURBOFEED OR GLORY
#12 - 2015-08-25 16:54:51 UTC
Cista2 wrote:
Jaxic wrote:


I don't know if I have the trust needed to offer with no collateral. Knowing my luck it would go from a loan to a donation pretty fast. How are you "assured" a return on these?

I added some more text in my first post.

It's a matter of gauging between some factors, primarily
- is the person known at all
- is the scheme realistic
- does he present a good story? That one is really important to me. And in fact, new people often offer API access or data from EVE Mogul. This means that anyone can verify if their story sticks.
- who are the people that applaud this offering, and invest in it.


Thank you for the response. Seems there might be hope I can get into this market. Seems silly to sit on all of this ISK and not have it working for me in some way. Other then loans/bonds I am not to sure where to put it.

I started to collect the ISK with some station trading but that numbed my brain to much so I moved into PI across 2 accounts along with some WH combat sites. Originally my goal was to PLEX 2 accounts for a year but I think that would be a large waste of potential ISK now that that goal is within reach.
Dextrome Thorphan
#13 - 2015-08-25 17:47:28 UTC
It'd hard getting in on a secure (collaterized) loan, because they're usually filled before you get a chance to invest...
Dextrome Thorphan
#14 - 2015-08-25 17:51:28 UTC
Jaxic wrote:
Cista2 wrote:
Jaxic wrote:


I don't know if I have the trust needed to offer with no collateral. Knowing my luck it would go from a loan to a donation pretty fast. How are you "assured" a return on these?

I added some more text in my first post.

It's a matter of gauging between some factors, primarily
- is the person known at all
- is the scheme realistic
- does he present a good story? That one is really important to me. And in fact, new people often offer API access or data from EVE Mogul. This means that anyone can verify if their story sticks.
- who are the people that applaud this offering, and invest in it.


Thank you for the response. Seems there might be hope I can get into this market. Seems silly to sit on all of this ISK and not have it working for me in some way. Other then loans/bonds I am not to sure where to put it.

I started to collect the ISK with some station trading but that numbed my brain to much so I moved into PI across 2 accounts along with some WH combat sites. Originally my goal was to PLEX 2 accounts for a year but I think that would be a large waste of potential ISK now that that goal is within reach.


Plexing your accounts is just a waste of ISK atm, with current PLEX prices (imo). Unless you're already a trillionaire or earn billions of passive isk per month....
Jaxic
Holey Roamin' Empire
TURBOFEED OR GLORY
#15 - 2015-08-25 17:59:08 UTC
Dextrome Thorphan wrote:
Jaxic wrote:
Cista2 wrote:
Jaxic wrote:


I don't know if I have the trust needed to offer with no collateral. Knowing my luck it would go from a loan to a donation pretty fast. How are you "assured" a return on these?

I added some more text in my first post.

It's a matter of gauging between some factors, primarily
- is the person known at all
- is the scheme realistic
- does he present a good story? That one is really important to me. And in fact, new people often offer API access or data from EVE Mogul. This means that anyone can verify if their story sticks.
- who are the people that applaud this offering, and invest in it.


Thank you for the response. Seems there might be hope I can get into this market. Seems silly to sit on all of this ISK and not have it working for me in some way. Other then loans/bonds I am not to sure where to put it.

I started to collect the ISK with some station trading but that numbed my brain to much so I moved into PI across 2 accounts along with some WH combat sites. Originally my goal was to PLEX 2 accounts for a year but I think that would be a large waste of potential ISK now that that goal is within reach.


Plexing your accounts is just a waste of ISK atm, with current PLEX prices (imo). Unless you're already a trillionaire or earn billions of passive isk per month....



Yea, that is why I came to the board to look into the loan suggestion. Frankly I am not sure what I will do...
Nouva MacGyver
Jedrzejczyk Integrated Capital
Minerva Exalt Holdings
#16 - 2015-08-25 18:32:44 UTC
Jaxic wrote:
Asked my Corp how I can put my ISK to work and someone suggested Loans. With this being EVE I imagine I can quickly screw up and just end up giving my ISK away like an idiot.

Could someone that has some experience with this give me some advice on how I can use my capital to fund loans so it can go to work for me instead of just sitting in my wallet. Curious how I can protect my interests while helping out some fellow players with a temporary infusion of cash.

Thanks


Not much of an issue if investing on players that have collateral held by trusted third parties - just a matter of how comfortable and how much you agree with X amount of your ISK being held up for Y length of time with Z returns.

If you're planning on getting your feet wet loaning to ventures with no collateral by issuer, the only point I would add to the others that have already been mentioned is to try and diversify your investments to spread out the risks. Losing to a percentile is better than losing it all with one default. More importantly on this - just treat your ISK as if it were gone once it leaves your wallet. Invest only what you can afford to lose (unless of course you derive some form of pleasure in losing money from the occasional scams you bought into, then more power to you).
Careby
#17 - 2015-08-25 19:13:00 UTC
The difference between a "guaranteed" (almost) 2% monthly return on a collateralized loan and a 10+% monthly return on an uncollateralized loan is compensation for the extra risk. In theory, if you are a good judge of that risk, your winners can pay for your losers, and you'll come out with a return equal to or even better than the "safe" 2%. In practice, you may do significantly worse, but there are some who make high risk loans and keep coming back for more.

"The difference between theory and practice, in practice, is greater than the difference between theory and practice, in theory."
Plleasure Hub
Municorn
#18 - 2015-08-25 22:00:30 UTC
Hi Jaxic. Welcome to MD! You are in the position that I hope to get to some day, so congratulations! If you can manage to invest at least 80 billion ISK @ 2% per month into collateralized loans, you will earn enough interest to PLEX your account, pay for a large POS's fuel, and have some extra change left over. Just like in real life, once you are rich, making money is easy. xD

I can make you a lowball offer for an uncollateralized loan. I will pay you 6% interest per month on a loan in the amount between 500 million and 5 billion ISK. Duration: 90 days minimum, with interest payments every 30 days.

Disclaimer: This rate is not very good for an unsecured loan. I usually pay double this interest rate. However, my university classes just started back, so I have less time to devote to EVE, making it more difficult to earn enough profits on top of the interest to make it worthwhile. I could easily manage to profit more than 6% on some otherwise-foregone opportunities on a loan that size.

On the upside, I have a perfect track record on all my loans. I have borrowed a total of 5.2 billion and have paid roughly 1 billion in interest. I have worked with 9 different investors so far. I have been heavily investing in new production lines, such as some T2 hulls and some items that are relatively new and in demand. My manufacturing capacity is about to triple within the next week as some of my alts reach the skill requirements needed for T2 manufacturing. My net assets are hovering around 30 billion, which I expect to rise quickly once I get past this phase of heavy investment into new markets.

I have 500 million invested in Careby's Virtual Handshake Loan right now, which I may withdraw at the end of month 2 or 3. You should check that thread out. I can't vouch for him personally, but the advertised rates are good and he is offering early cashouts.

If you are interested in my offer, let me know. I will write up a formal post, and I will start putting your ISK to work for you!

My past loans for reference:
G1 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=346562
G2 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=348066
G3 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=359563
G4 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=429019

"There's no meaningful difference between a real and a virtual world. It's pointless to ask anyone who they really are. All you can do is accept and believe in them, because whoever they are in your mind, is their true identity." — Kazuto Kirigaya
Dethmourne Silvermane
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-08-25 22:03:19 UTC
Personally, I don't feel a lot of benefit in collateralized loans except as a sort of leveraging strategy. I might collateralize an item I think will gain enough value in the future to be worth holding onto, but that is preventing me from maximizing returns right this second - for example, let's say I have a hunch that next patch will triple Zydrine prices, and I want to leverage my existing Zydrine stock (without selling it outright) as collateral to buy even more Zydrine - in theory I could then borrow against the new Zydrine, etc, etc, until I'm in a maximal leverage situation.

Interested Party (TM)
Dethmourne Silvermane
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2015-08-25 22:06:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Dethmourne Silvermane
Oh, if we're supposed to be pitching you loan opportunities, I suppose i should mention I could use about 2-3b and I'd be willing to pay 5%/month interest on that, 6 months duration, option for early repayment (with that month's interest + principal) at borrower's discretion.

EDIT: I'm at work, but I'd be happy to discuss in more detail if you're interested on Tweetfleet's Slack or later tonight when I get home (~3 hrs)

Interested Party (TM)
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