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Jump Fatigue Feedback

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h4kun4
Gang Bang Pandas
#261 - 2015-08-15 12:25:45 UTC  |  Edited by: h4kun4
CCP Larrikin wrote:
h4kun4 wrote:
Some suggestions:
Examples for difficulty might be that you cant move as far and you can't carry that much fuel. 5 Light Years range is a joke, combine that with a fuel bay that has enough fuel for lets say 10-15 light years and you can think how difficult it would be to move a 500 man cap fleet around the galaxy.
You would need to have fuel caches everywhere or have Jump Freighters travel with you. So, risk vs. reward, also preparation vs. reward.


Wouldn't this just mandate JF's for move ops without having any real effect on power projection?
Arguably, having to cynos in place = preparation, and chains of cynos across the galaxy allowing rapid power projection was one of the reasons jump fatigue was introduced in the first place?

Something like this could be potential used in combination with other effects (which your suggestion goes into more depth with).



Yes, Jump Freighters would have to become a large part of move ops, still, they are expensive, not everyone has or can fly one, and if you reconsider the size of isotopes, the JF assistance potential for a big cap fleet is there but would be difficult to make.
So either prepare for the moveop or carry a buch of JFs with you and risk that they die.

Lets use Nitrogen Isotopes and Chimeras as an Example, and lets say, 1 LY = 1.000 Isotopes burned.

If you double the volume of all isotopes to 0.3 m³, a Chimera could only carry 15.000 Isotopes, meaning it can travel 15 LY with a max range of 5 LY. And a full skilled and cargo fitted rhea would carry 111924 Isotopes. which is enough for 7.4616 full fuel bays, so in a full (256 people) carrier fleet you would need 35 (34.31) cargo fitted, all 5 skilled rheas who also need fuel themselves to supply the entire fleet with one extra fuel bay, so you could calculate 35 rheas for three jumps. Traveling from 6VDT in Fountain to F2OY in Querious would take 8 Jumps without using gates.
Means you would need to carry a second fleet of approx 100 Rheas with you for this. That is worth between 600 and 700 billion ISK + Fuel.
Doesn't sound like a viable option to me.

Thats an extreme example of course, but you could also prepare fuel caches in Lowsec/NPC Null which also takes a huge amount of preparation.

However you see it, Jump Fatigue is not needed with this system. If there is something strange in your neigbourhood you can quickly react and call the ghost busters, but if the enemys are further away, you need either preparation or fueltrucks to get there in time.
Although, reducing a Supercaps (i do not like them) fuelbay would be a death sentence for them, so they should keep their fuel bays and get full jump fatigue. This would keep people from dropping the Mjöllnir on everything even with the best preparation.

Also what i posted before is related to this. If you need to prepare the whole trip all aound new eden, and you take the time to do so, why not reward it with being there quickly? Also the fueltruck Jump Freighters coming with your fleet, still get jump fatigue.

In fact, it was not a troll at, all. I just forgot to give expalantion. So here it is.
The thing with your home region and no Bridge fatigue within your own sov in your set home region is simply a reward for owning the sov, the rewards should be just as big as the costs, which is currently not balanced, currently the costs and effort are highter than the reward. And protecting space bigger than two constellations is currently a pain. Even with 2500 (paper) People. So either make it viable to live in 15 systems (2 const) with 2500 (paper) guys or make it less a pain to control a thrid and maybe forth const within one region.

You will still get a Jump Reactivation delay depending on the range you jumped, no matter if carreir jump or Bridge taken, but no fatigue. And if you switch the region via bridge you will get normal fatigue in my suggestion. Also youll get fatigue if the bridge is not in your home region and/or doesn't belong to your alliance
Dograzor
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#262 - 2015-08-15 14:37:55 UTC
To keep it short:

Both or at least either one need fixing (range + fatigue).

My preference goes to range as the range puts a toll on a lot of individual players, having to do double the jumps is just so frustrating, especially when people need to run logistics or relocate capitals.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#263 - 2015-08-15 15:14:26 UTC
Dograzor wrote:
To keep it short:
Both or at least either one need fixing (range + fatigue).
My preference goes to range as the range puts a toll on a lot of individual players, having to do double the jumps is just so frustrating, especially when people need to run logistics or relocate capitals.
Range is exactly why Phoebe is good.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#264 - 2015-08-15 16:03:31 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Dograzor wrote:
To keep it short:
Both or at least either one need fixing (range + fatigue).
My preference goes to range as the range puts a toll on a lot of individual players, having to do double the jumps is just so frustrating, especially when people need to run logistics or relocate capitals.
Range is exactly why Phoebe is good.

if you live close to empire, that is Blink
Equto
Imperium Technologies
#265 - 2015-08-15 16:44:39 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Dograzor wrote:
To keep it short:
Both or at least either one need fixing (range + fatigue).
My preference goes to range as the range puts a toll on a lot of individual players, having to do double the jumps is just so frustrating, especially when people need to run logistics or relocate capitals.
Range is exactly why Phoebe is good.


I can tell you right now, range is not fine in phoebe, yes it stopped the random hotdrops. At the same time what used to take 2 jumps now takes me 15, the range is amazing
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#266 - 2015-08-15 18:33:36 UTC
Equto wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Dograzor wrote:
To keep it short:
Both or at least either one need fixing (range + fatigue).
My preference goes to range as the range puts a toll on a lot of individual players, having to do double the jumps is just so frustrating, especially when people need to run logistics or relocate capitals.
Range is exactly why Phoebe is good.


I can tell you right now, range is not fine in phoebe, yes it stopped the random hotdrops. At the same time what used to take 2 jumps now takes me 15, the range is amazing


Good. Adding jump drives in the first place was a terrible thing. I don't know what CCP was thinking.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#267 - 2015-08-15 20:13:14 UTC
I would like to propose a change in the mechanic of calculating fatigue if possible.

system load based fatigue

the more capitals jumping into a system, the more fatigue is impacted with a system similar to a tidi indicator to show system jump fatigue impact.

this will help small groups or individuals moving around and reduce large massive fleets moving across space.

one lone capital jumps to a system, very little fatigue(90-100% reduction,
massive 250 capital fleet jumps in, full or extra fatigue(100-150% of nominal fatigue)
capital systems can have special sov modules to reduce this effect.
jump bridges get a normal 50% reduction of this effect.

the system decay can be tweaked to prevent defensive abuse.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#268 - 2015-08-15 20:25:58 UTC
I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of jumping in to a capital system clearing fatige, but I think the idea of zero cost for jumping to one's own capital system is perfectly reasonable, and would have some good secondary effects.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#269 - 2015-08-15 21:52:48 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
If travel wasn't instantaneous jump fatigue could probably be greatly reduced.

Indeed. The only reason that jump fatigue is necessary is due to the fact that jump drives are instant. If we could scrap the jump drive completely and replace it with a hyperdrive then a lot of the complexity associated with a jump drive could be removed.

I think if CCP was building things from the ground up again they wouldn't have implemented a system of instantaneous travel.

If we can open our minds to thinking outside of the box then I believe the solution is right there in front of us.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#270 - 2015-08-15 22:58:54 UTC
Equto wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Dograzor wrote:
To keep it short:
Both or at least either one need fixing (range + fatigue).
My preference goes to range as the range puts a toll on a lot of individual players, having to do double the jumps is just so frustrating, especially when people need to run logistics or relocate capitals.
Range is exactly why Phoebe is good.


I can tell you right now, range is not fine in phoebe, yes it stopped the random hotdrops. At the same time what used to take 2 jumps now takes me 15, the range is amazing


It also takes your enemies 15 jumps to cover what they used to do in 2.

If not for the jump changes, you wouldn't have that space in the first place, and you wouldn't have a hope of defending it now.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Equto
Imperium Technologies
#271 - 2015-08-15 23:17:42 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Equto wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Dograzor wrote:
To keep it short:
Both or at least either one need fixing (range + fatigue).
My preference goes to range as the range puts a toll on a lot of individual players, having to do double the jumps is just so frustrating, especially when people need to run logistics or relocate capitals.
Range is exactly why Phoebe is good.


I can tell you right now, range is not fine in phoebe, yes it stopped the random hotdrops. At the same time what used to take 2 jumps now takes me 15, the range is amazing


It also takes your enemies 15 jumps to cover what they used to do in 2.

If not for the jump changes, you wouldn't have that space in the first place, and you wouldn't have a hope of defending it now.


No, what it means that that I can't even fight my enemies now because they can't get in my systems and I can't get in theirs. Due to both fatigue and range its no longer possible for deployments any reasonable distance from my staging system due to both time and range. Going from home system to the edge of my region takes 5 mids, if done in one day I have 3 weeks of fatigue before I can move again. If I wanted to go further than my region it takes a minimum of a couple weeks with capitals and during that entire time im stuck and can't go back.

So yes, it means my enemies can't get to me fast, it also means I can't go outside of my own region to find fights.
Bailian Moxtain
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#272 - 2015-08-16 01:59:10 UTC
0,0 is more boring now than ever. Wonder why.. Fix ranges and max fatigue from 30 days to 3. The one who decided 30 days of waiting in a video-game was a good idea deserves a slap in the face,

I dont mind fatigue building up to prevent random hotdrops everywhere, but 10ly range+ for all caps wouldnt harm anyone at all..
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#273 - 2015-08-16 02:47:05 UTC
I do like the idea of jump bridges having more destination options. I think this would strengthen networks without circumventing the fatigue drawbacks so much.
Nimrodz2
Therapy.
Evictus.
#274 - 2015-08-16 02:55:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Nimrodz2
Before the initial Super re balance no one really cared about jump ranges and such. As a owner of them, Take them away bring back reason for dreads/carriers other than repping, fun capital battles again. cut jf down by 50%
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#275 - 2015-08-16 02:58:50 UTC
Equto wrote:
If I wanted to go further than my region it takes a minimum of a couple weeks with capitals and during that entire time im stuck and can't go back..

Ever heard of gates?

Also there seems to be a disconnect of systems that don't have enemies in them, and how far you can travel. Apparently neither party is capable of even getting to each other within a week.
Equto
Imperium Technologies
#276 - 2015-08-16 03:05:24 UTC
Rowells wrote:

Ever heard of gates?

Also there seems to be a disconnect of systems that don't have enemies in them, and how far you can travel. Apparently neither party is capable of even getting to each other within a week.

Right, I can take some subcaps through gates on a 2-3 hour roam and hope I find a fight and be back home in those 2-3 hours, however if I am going to attempt to deploy my corp or alliance then there is no way in hell im going to convince everyone to go 20-30 jumps and ferry ships back and forth one at a time. Beyond that should someone attack our space there is no way we can easily turn around now after we "deploy".

As such I am stuck taking just subcaps and only subcaps on extended roams outside of my space which often is incredibly limited on each persons time. I don't have personally have the time for 2-3 hour roams and due to the new sov system and how capitals currently are there is no way a group can deploy and allow their sov to be protected. While you could argue that you can take capitals through gates now, nothing but massive alliances with plenty of support can honestly do such a thing in null due to how fragile capitals truly are.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#277 - 2015-08-16 03:30:47 UTC
Equto wrote:
Rowells wrote:

Ever heard of gates?

Also there seems to be a disconnect of systems that don't have enemies in them, and how far you can travel. Apparently neither party is capable of even getting to each other within a week.

Right, I can take some subcaps through gates on a 2-3 hour roam and hope I find a fight and be back home in those 2-3 hours, however if I am going to attempt to deploy my corp or alliance then there is no way in hell im going to convince everyone to go 20-30 jumps and ferry ships back and forth one at a time. Beyond that should someone attack our space there is no way we can easily turn around now after we "deploy".

As such I am stuck taking just subcaps and only subcaps on extended roams outside of my space which often is incredibly limited on each persons time. I don't have personally have the time for 2-3 hour roams and due to the new sov system and how capitals currently are there is no way a group can deploy and allow their sov to be protected. While you could argue that you can take capitals through gates now, nothing but massive alliances with plenty of support can honestly do such a thing in null due to how fragile capitals truly are.

Or you could use your brain and realize that you can use gates AND jump drives. Or still remains the fact that you seem to be unable to reach your enemies, and they are incapable of reaching you, which leaves this very wide space between you and your enemies, that apparently is too hard to get to. But you still own it and I assume protect it. Which is odd since it's so hard to reach.

Better yet, the idea that you somehow have a need to be able to instantly be back home, while also fighting somewhere else, possibly where someone is trying to defend their home from you.

And massive alliance my butt. Take a look at all the space in the south east. There's a pretty large chunk of people who don't belong to a super-coalition and still managed to get their tools where they are needed. And better yet, those oh so fragile caps are a little safer now, since some random bloc can't come rolling down the hill on them in the blink of an eye

Which is somewhat of a moot point, since you already stated your enemies can't reasonably tech you for fights, so moving a little closer is going to make you vulnerable to who? The dust bunnies? We already determined that you have to go very far to find a fight so moving closer to the fights should be anon issue, no?

I mean if your happy with a world where you take bridges or cynos from one end of the map, to the other, do the thing, and be back within an hour or two, I guess you like to have your cake and eat it too.
Equto
Imperium Technologies
#278 - 2015-08-16 03:47:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Equto
Rowells wrote:

Or you could use your brain and realize that you can use gates AND jump drives. Or still remains the fact that you seem to be unable to reach your enemies, and they are incapable of reaching you, which leaves this very wide space between you and your enemies, that apparently is too hard to get to. But you still own it and I assume protect it. Which is odd since it's so hard to reach.

Better yet, the idea that you somehow have a need to be able to instantly be back home, while also fighting somewhere else, possibly where someone is trying to defend their home from you.

And massive alliance my butt. Take a look at all the space in the south east. There's a pretty large chunk of people who don't belong to a super-coalition and still managed to get their tools where they are needed. And better yet, those oh so fragile caps are a little safer now, since some random bloc can't come rolling down the hill on them in the blink of an eye

Which is somewhat of a moot point, since you already stated your enemies can't reasonably tech you for fights, so moving a little closer is going to make you vulnerable to who? The dust bunnies? We already determined that you have to go very far to find a fight so moving closer to the fights should be anon issue, no?

I mean if your happy with a world where you take bridges or cynos from one end of the map, to the other, do the thing, and be back within an hour or two, I guess you like to have your cake and eat it too.


Yes, I need to take 10-15 gate jumps per cyno just to wait out the fatigue to a reasonable level, this leaves me with still several hour move ops with capitals stuck in extremely vulnerable warp. While you seem to think that for whatever reason the enemies that are willing to far to fight that I can't be attacked at all. Move ops of which we used to have in eve every 2-3 months take 8-10 hours for gates due to how slow capitals are and the distance you normally travel for deployments. While the enemies I want to attack are too far to reasonable fight in a 1 hour roam I can promise you that whenever they see a 8-10 hour carrier move op everyone in eve with the ability will attempt to attack it. What exactly am I to protect that with? Its basically taking freighters through null-sec.Reasonably its going to take a week or more to get to the deployment and another week or more to get back just taking gates, hell it took a week with "instant" travel as you call it.

But back to the protection since I just talked about moving is going to take 8-10 hours straight which noone in eve should be forced to just taking gates and even longer with jump drives due to their **** range and fatigue that means its going to take ATLEAST that long to get back to my space. Reasonably as I said its going to take a week or more to move people for fights, where as it only takes a single interceptor a few days to ruin all of my space. So if I leave my space to go fight as I want to then not only does it take forever and make everyone doing it want to quit eve, I will likely lose my space. One of the popular tactics pre-phoebe was even to move out to make it look like your space was undefended so that someone will attack and then going back. Post-phoebe its not possible to even fake it, once you leave your space your are gone for awhile.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#279 - 2015-08-16 05:03:31 UTC
Equto wrote:
hell it took a week with "instant" travel as you call it.

You are either lying, over-exaggerating, or are completely ignorant. These numbers you keep ripping out of your bum have a striking resemblance to what normally comes out of there.

And it doesn't start with what I what I quoted, however it does make it pretty plain to see now.
Kieron VonDeux
#280 - 2015-08-16 06:09:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Kieron VonDeux
Just consider that Jump Fatigue has allowed expanded local use of capitals where they could not be used before due to the real threat of escalations from those who lived outside your local area.

This is different the pre-position of assets before an incursion into someone's space.

As well, jump fatigue did a lot to limit power projection across the map.

Any further modification to Jump Drive/Hyper Drive movement should consider those issues.

Note: Hyper Drive sounds interesting... Need more details.



Edit: By those images it is clear that post jump fatigue has resulted in a net increase in Capital Ship action.