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Crime & Punishment

 
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Griefers, Stop moaning

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Mobadder Thworst
Doomheim
#161 - 2015-08-15 17:04:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mobadder Thworst
Tora Bushido wrote:
Xeno wrote:
True the power blocks could crush high sec if they desired to but why should they it relay has no value to them
haha Twisted


This sentiment is just so unfounded.

It's easy to imagine that the giants staging those huge null sec battles are the true powers of Eve. They own systems!

However, they're fighting over hundreds of systems where a small minority of the game plays. They are largely there for the good isk and stability (no wardecs). Their "power" in my experience is mostly in the areas of wealth and logistics.

There has always been a large wardec alliance spanking the null powers. When I was a young player it was the privateer alliance, I participated in it when it was the orphanage, now it's marmites.

When I was in the orphanage, we loved it when a null fleet would come up. We knew the systems, had enough scouts to build a good "worst case" fleet long before they arrived, and always enjoyed the opportunity for a large fleet fight. We had plenty of guys who were experienced FC's from null... And plenty of high sec guerrillas as well.

I don't remember ever losing one of those fights.

I would guess marmites are the same.

Keep in mind (when you pretend that control in null is better )that marmites are controlling the space where 70% of the player base competes.
Yukimisama
Deviant Dollyz
#162 - 2015-08-15 19:52:37 UTC
Dude come on, they get evicted out of Null/W-Space often enough, they can't defend themselves against the real alliances when they try, so why keep trying when it's possible to come to high-sec and suicide gank all day and war-dec all day and make billions anyways?

****** players of the game killing the young players instead of getting better to hang with the vets where it matters in null, and you think they're 'not' going to whine and cry? They're worse than the new players who don't know any better.

In My World...
Mortlake
Republic Military School
#163 - 2015-08-15 20:28:25 UTC
Yukimisama wrote:
Dude come on, they get evicted out of Null/W-Space often enough, they can't defend themselves against the real alliances when they try, so why keep trying when it's possible to come to high-sec and suicide gank all day and war-dec all day and make billions anyways?

****** players of the game killing the young players instead of getting better to hang with the vets where it matters in null, and you think they're 'not' going to whine and cry? They're worse than the new players who don't know any better.


I killed a 3 week old player a few weeks ago. Shat my pants. He nearly had me but just as I was about to go down I killed the last of his Venture's drones.

Don't talk **** about mercs until you've operated at the deep end of the septic tank.

Sometimes you hit the bar and sometimes the bar hits you...
Mobadder Thworst
Doomheim
#164 - 2015-08-15 20:29:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Mobadder Thworst
Yukimisama wrote:
Dude come on, they get evicted out of Null/W-Space often enough, they can't defend themselves against the real alliances when they try, so why keep trying when it's possible to come to high-sec and suicide gank all day and war-dec all day and make billions anyways?

****** players of the game killing the young players instead of getting better to hang with the vets where it matters in null, and you think they're 'not' going to whine and cry? They're worse than the new players who don't know any better.


Show me something on those evictions, I'm not familiar. Maybe you have some battlereports you could link?

As for high sec... I can't see the argument that the zone where 70% of the population plays is a noob zone.

I think I could make a better argument that it's the game and null is an included minigame.

Enjoy your minigame...
Mo
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#165 - 2015-08-15 20:43:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Yukimisama wrote:
****** players of the game killing the young players instead of getting better to hang with the vets where it matters in null, and you think they're 'not' going to whine and cry? They're worse than the new players who don't know any better.
This thread would like a word with you.

Half of the mercs that are supposedly greifing the hell out of a huge newbie corp have alts in the corp providing advice, fitted ships and leading ops against both like and, occasionally embarrassing, superior opponents. They're teaching newbies tactics, game mechanics, how to fit ships, how to survive, how to create their own content, and most importantly how to have fun in Eve.

They're also organising amongst themselves to provide fleets or combat opportunities where the newbies have a definite chance of winning, providing detailed and helpful feedback no matter the outcome.

Crappy players indeed, helping newbies have fun by funding them, sharing their knowledge of the game and introducing them to something other than mining and missioning is such a terrible thing to do, despite corps and alliances that do so having a much higher newbie retention rate than the norm.

Everybody benefits from newbie retention, from CCP down.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#166 - 2015-08-15 23:51:48 UTC
ErrorRon wrote:
BRING BACK AOE DOOMSDAYS IN HIGHSEC

Its a monocle... Tora ALT confirmed

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#167 - 2015-08-16 04:52:18 UTC
Yukimisama wrote:
where it matters in null

Please make a convincing argument as to why something that happens in null matters.
Mobadder Thworst
Doomheim
#168 - 2015-08-16 06:14:21 UTC
Mortlake wrote:
Yukimisama wrote:
Dude come on, they get evicted out of Null/W-Space often enough, they can't defend themselves against the real alliances when they try, so why keep trying when it's possible to come to high-sec and suicide gank all day and war-dec all day and make billions anyways?

****** players of the game killing the young players instead of getting better to hang with the vets where it matters in null, and you think they're 'not' going to whine and cry? They're worse than the new players who don't know any better.


I killed a 3 week old player a few weeks ago. Shat my pants. He nearly had me but just as I was about to go down I killed the last of his Venture's drones.

Don't talk **** about mercs until you've operated at the deep end of the septic tank.


These guys think you go pick fights with the biggest gun you can afford. It is unthinkable to do it another way to them.

What were you in, a velator? (As a side note, Tengu and I fought recently in "Ibi"(the plural of ibis?) and I must note that the Ibis is MUCH nicer than it was last time I baited in it.

They don't know how much fun a young player has when he kills an older player... Or how much fun it is to win and lose so freely.

I read your post and thought about all the times when a noob chased me away with my ass on fire because I showed up too undergunned trying to get a fight. I imagine they just thought you sucked. I love fights like that.

I once killed a thorax and cormorant at the same time in a griffin. It was a new player and a 2 year old player. Now, both sucked but I didn't know that when I took the fight. Do you think I really thought I could win that fight? No, I was ready to lose.

To these guys who don't try numbnuttery: "the deep end of the septic tank is nice, come on in."
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#169 - 2015-08-16 15:24:22 UTC
Mobadder Thworst wrote:

What were you in, a velator? (As a side note, Tengu and I fought recently in "Ibi"(the plural of ibis?) and I must note that the Ibis is MUCH nicer than it was last time I baited in it....


It's that 30% ECM bonus. That little noobship is teh evils.....

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Mobadder Thworst
Doomheim
#170 - 2015-08-17 05:20:59 UTC
Tarojan wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
what i mean is wardeccing a corp and forcing them to stay in a station because thats all they feel they can do is not really player freedom, wardecs are removing freedom from a player to benefit another player. sorta thing


A war declaration has exactly zero effect on the ability of players to do anything. You can still mine, run missions and incursions and transport goods in exactly the same way as you could while not at war. If players feel that because they are at war they can't undock that restriction is entirely self imposed and as such they can free themselves of it at any time if they so desire.

The actual danger faced by people at war is incredibly variable based on who they are a war with, their proximity to that group and other variables, but essentially it just amounts to an increase in risk that needs to be accounted for and mitigated where possible.

In situations where players will do nothing but sit docked while at war what is really happening is the player is placing the value of their virtual property above the value of their gameplay: "it's better to not play at all than it is to lose a ship" or corp/alliance leadership making similar decision on the behalf of its members.

It's neither the war itself nor the aggressors who are responsible for them remaining docked, they have no control over that. In fact they'd prefer a continuation of activity, generally speaking. It is all a matter of the attitude of the defenders and their willingness to respond to emergent situations in a way that provides them with gameplay.

Is there a solution to that? I don't really know if it's actually a problem or even care for that matter. People are welcome to destroy their own game experience by sitting docked in a station for weeks at a time if they want, alternatively they can go join a different corp.


You can't argue the current situation is great though surely? I mean if you wanted to violence one of my boats you would have to suicide gank it and concord is a terrible mechanic. If you war decced me, my available reasonable options become dont undock on this character until you stop wasting isk on the war dec or drop corp and make a new one. If you war decc the new one, just go live in an npc corp for a bit. Thats TERRIBLE game play for both of us. What isn't a reasonable option for me, in fact its verging on moronic, is to undock in a venture, a badger or a missioning rattlesnake under your war dec. That would be stupid, I would deserve to be killed and expect to be mocked for it. Nor would it be reasonable for me to undock in a pvp fit cruiser and come look for you. You would annihilate me with your off grid boosters, neutral logi alts and bat phoned allies.

The current state of play is that the high sec pvp community has such an apparantly high bar of entry , which the odds stacked so high against the pvers, that those who want a mixed game of pve/pvp are better served dodging war decs and just going to low sec for fun and pew pew. Wouldn't it be so much better if we got rid of concord, war decs and armed pve ships to not be flying coffins if pvped? This is a pvp game right? so why not make ALL ships pvp wether for fight or for flight?



There is a good point in this.

The barriers to entry into high-second pvp are brought up.

I agree they're unreasonably high. If you are just a small corp that's running missions and you want to try pvp, your first try will cost 50 mil and will likely land you a compound wardec against hundreds of wardec vets with better equipment and real skill sets.

This hurts everyone. The PVE community is not learning to pvp because their enemies are far too numerous and experienced.

The numerous and experienced players are all on the team of whatever sugar daddy promises the most war dec because they just want to shoot something. Sadly, they're bored senseless and often struggling to find a real challenge.

The old mechanics were much better balanced. Most war dec corps were tiny... Easier to deal with for their targets. People could dabble in pvp and learn about it because the deck wasn't stacked so hard against the aggressor. Yes, I'm sure there were physically more wardecs... But I think they were more fun, more interactive, and better content.

The old mechanics were better for everyone.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#171 - 2015-08-17 11:12:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Mobadder Thworst wrote:
There is a good point in this.

The barriers to entry into high-second pvp are brought up.

I agree they're unreasonably high. If you are just a small corp that's running missions and you want to try pvp, your first try will cost 50 mil and will likely land you a compound wardec against hundreds of wardec vets with better equipment and real skill sets.

This hurts everyone. The PVE community is not learning to pvp because their enemies are far too numerous and experienced.

The numerous and experienced players are all on the team of whatever sugar daddy promises the most war dec because they just want to shoot something. Sadly, they're bored senseless and often struggling to find a real challenge.

The old mechanics were much better balanced. Most war dec corps were tiny... Easier to deal with for their targets. People could dabble in pvp and learn about it because the deck wasn't stacked so hard against the aggressor. Yes, I'm sure there were physically more wardecs... But I think they were more fun, more interactive, and better content.

The old mechanics were better for everyone.
While I agree with you that there is a good point in the post that you replied to, most of the things that could be seen to be wrong with current wardec mechanics are a case of you reap what you sow.

With the culling of the dec shield people went back to dropping to NPC corps as a way of avoidance, which encourages the scattergun approach of wardeccing multiple corps in the hopes of getting some pewpew. On an individual level wardecs became more expensive, which encouraged the small wardec corps to band together and spread the costs.

As it currently stands, most defenders, especially the PvE biased and newbie corps among them, have no stake in putting up a fight. Most don't have the knowledge to do so anyway, and seem unwilling to use, or blissfully unaware of, things like the ally mechanic.

Final thought.
Do any of the wardeccers/merc groups upon wardeccing a newbie or PvE based corp, inform them of the options available to them other than turtling or disbanding, where it doesn't break any contracts to do so?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#172 - 2015-08-17 13:37:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Generally the "Leader" of a "Newbie Corporation" and yes, both of those terms require quotations, aren't actually new themselves and are aware of the game mechanics.

The problem with carebears facing war is timeless. They're paranoid, don't trust anyone and have no connections that aren't other carebears. If they want help and aren't the pets of a highsec PVP corp they're probably going to have to pay for their allies, against a group like BAW your options are limited, expensive and questionably effective. Not to mention that they hate to negotiate, don't like spending money and are intensely distrustful of everyone. 90% of the time generic carebear corp/alliance is going to be alone and going for the full duration because of their own nature.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#173 - 2015-08-17 13:49:30 UTC
I had a long quotenaught that the servers ate, so I'll just reply with this:

I 100% believe that scaling wardec fees that financially punish those who are engaged in very lopsided (i.e. large corp vs small corp), very many (more than X number as aggressor), or very long wardecs (i.e. any wardec longer than x number of months) would do wonders for hisec.

I think this would make the wardec scene more appealing for newer and/or smaller corps while still leaving them vulnerable and at the same time reign in larger corps who wardec anything that moves while still leaving them the option to do so if they're willing to pay.

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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#174 - 2015-08-17 13:59:17 UTC
Scaling cost based on time would be disastrous, it would massively encourage "just dock up until the war ends" reactions. It would also undermine wars that are being fought for actual reasons. It'd incentivize continuously cycling between different groups over actually fighting a war to completion.

That's like the exact opposite of better.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#175 - 2015-08-17 14:07:18 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
I had a long quotenaught that the servers ate, so I'll just reply with this:

I 100% believe that scaling wardec fees that financially punish those who are engaged in very lopsided (i.e. large corp vs small corp), very many (more than X number as aggressor), or very long wardecs (i.e. any wardec longer than x number of months) would do wonders for hisec.

I think this would make the wardec scene more appealing for newer and/or smaller corps while still leaving them vulnerable and at the same time reign in larger corps who wardec anything that moves while still leaving them the option to do so if they're willing to pay.


I would suggest that, so long as wars are completely voluntary due to the dec dodge exploit, that wars do not need to be made any weaker.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#176 - 2015-08-17 14:11:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I would suggest that, so long as wars are completely voluntary due to the dec dodge exploit, that wars do not need to be made any weaker.

I agree and I'm open to discussing this as well.

I feel like the current mechanic too heavily favors defenders who don't want to fight, but some of the proposals I've read I think are too harsh. I still think you should be able to, just not as easily and consequence-free as you can now.

EDIT: Say, for sake of argument, make it so that after a war is declared, corp members gain a mandatory 48 hour cooldown in order to leave corp. This would be based on when the player first attempts to leave corp (rather like a director or someone with roles), not when the war starts. This would guarantee aggressors at least 24 hours of corp membership while still leaving players able to leave the corp if they choose. Directors or those with roles could drop them immediately upon wardec notification, but wouldn't be able to leave until both the 24 hour role cooldown and the 48 hour war cooldown have passed.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#177 - 2015-08-17 14:14:00 UTC
Capitals in high-sec would probably equate to the disease that plagues the test server.

You want to test out the new marauder? Nope, Blap dread.

You want to fly the new destroyer? Nope, Archon puts 10 warriors on you.

The only real positive that I see coming from dreads in high-sec would be to take out poco's and pos's. CCP is already one step ahead of us though by replacing pos's entirely. #Entosis #JoveWand

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#178 - 2015-08-17 14:20:25 UTC
Can we juse replace guns and RR with entosis links already? Want a ship killed? Entosis it, it goes into reinforced mode for 5 minutes, when it comes out there is a entosis tug of war between the two fleets, if the hostile fleet wins the ship is destroyed.

Much easier than all this "shooting guns at the thing you want to blow up" nonsense.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#179 - 2015-08-17 14:24:40 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Capitals in high-sec would probably equate to the disease that plagues the test server.

You want to test out the new marauder? Nope, Blap dread.

You want to fly the new destroyer? Nope, Archon puts 10 warriors on you.

The only real positive that I see coming from dreads in high-sec would be to take out poco's and pos's. CCP is already one step ahead of us though by replacing pos's entirely. #Entosis #JoveWand

I agree that unlimited capitals everywhere in hisec would be a bad thing for a long list of reasons that I won't get into here.

I'm not convinced that allowing caps into parts of hisec under limited circumstances is entirely bad. I've proposed an idea for this and see pros and cons to it; I'm not sure yet which comes out on top.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#180 - 2015-08-17 14:55:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Generally the "Leader" of a "Newbie Corporation" and yes, both of those terms require quotations, aren't actually new themselves and are aware of the game mechanics.
I was giving them the benefit of the doubt for the purposes of the post, and you're right they should be in quotations.

Quote:
The problem with carebears facing war is timeless. They're paranoid, don't trust anyone and have no connections that aren't other carebears. If they want help and aren't the pets of a highsec PVP corp they're probably going to have to pay for their allies, against a group like BAW your options are limited, expensive and questionably effective. Not to mention that they hate to negotiate, don't like spending money and are intensely distrustful of everyone. 90% of the time generic carebear corp/alliance is going to be alone and going for the full duration because of their own nature.
As I said, they reap what they sow. They go "waaahh wardec" yet refuse to help themselves, then wonder why they're continuously wardecced.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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