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[news] Vigilant Tyrannos assault on Safizon
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#121 - 2015-08-05 00:33:12 UTC
Aeon Amadii wrote:
It makes me curious as to where all the Serpentis and Angel sympathizers are.

We've got a few of both in PY-RE, I think. And if you see Stillwater around, they're Angel supporters of a ... um, kind of different lineage, I guess?

There's some tension there.
Aeon Amadii
#122 - 2015-08-05 00:35:57 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Aeon Amadii wrote:
It makes me curious as to where all the Serpentis and Angel sympathizers are.

We've got a few of both in PY-RE, I think. And if you see Stillwater around, they're Angel supporters of a ... um, kind of different lineage, I guess?

There's some tension there.


Point 'em out to me. I'd like a word.

(This character is the Eve version of Aeon Amadi since there is no cross-forum support)

Member of CPM 2
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#123 - 2015-08-05 01:18:29 UTC
Aeon Amadii wrote:
Point 'em out to me. I'd like a word.

Uh ... you can try Vincent Pryce if you really really want to. Or Kalaratiri. She's been more active lately....

Good luck?

(Actually, maybe it's better if you don't?)
Silvox Lunae
Perkone
Caldari State
#124 - 2015-08-05 01:44:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Silvox Lunae
Aeon Amadii wrote:


So let me intervene here and ask you this, from a tactical and militaristic standpoint. Let's assume we consider Drifters peaceful, let's assume the most optimistic of views in that they are non-aggressive and want to be left alone.

How many lives are you will to put at risk and how much are you willing to sacrifice for what is essentially a theory with incredibly limited evidence? Even if we don't take an aggressive stance here, and operate on a purely defensive basis, we're much better off than assuming that Drifters are naturally non-violent.


If you will note my position carefully, you may notice that I am not in fact advocating for those already in conflict with the Drifters to believe they are peaceful and cease conflict. My stance is that those who have aligned with the Amarr Empire and have chosen to fight the Drifters should understand that they have selected themselves for said conflict, and should not be attempting to call others into arms in a conflict that was of their own choosing.

The rest of the cluster is not obligated to assist your aggressive tendencies. The Drifters are only attacking those who have instigated conflict.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#125 - 2015-08-05 01:52:23 UTC
Silvox Lunae wrote:
The rest of the cluster is not obligated to assist your aggressive tendencies. The Drifters are only attacking those who have instigated conflict.


No, they're not. Drifters will attack any ship using an Entosis Link within 25km of a Circadian Seeker. All sovereignty structures - including IHUBs, which carry the industrial upgrades for a system, must be Entosised when deployed.

Are you telling me that attempting to install an infrastructure hub in VFK-IV in order to ensure proper detection of pirate activity and ore deposits is an act of aggression against the Drifters?
Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
#126 - 2015-08-05 09:34:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jandice Ymladris
Silvox Lunae wrote:
Jandice Ymladris wrote:

I published a more in detail overview of notable aggression involving Drifters in my latest news article: The rising threat of the Drifters


Once more, I will urge the capsuleers of New Eden to consider the situation in which Drifter "aggression" is being presented. I stand by my stance that they have only initiated aggression when threatened. They do not demonstrate a "clear threat to New Eden", but rather specifically to the Amarr Empire headed by an Empress who has as of yet unknown reasons to engage in conflict with a clearly superior foe who could have targeted and removed the Amarr Empire's assets long before now. Capsuleers at large need not do anything beyond remaining observant and as neutral as possible. For those of you with loyalties to the Amarr Empire, I understand you are bound by obligation, but for those who are not please do not bring about unnecessary conflict to the cluster.


Edited out the quotes leaving the meaningfull stuff in place.

I do think we're past the point of the idea that Drifters merely want to be left alone. While no aggression has been shown towards anyone else but the Amarr & DED (and at DED they had a direct provocation), it would be wise to prepare for conflict nontheless.
A wise man once said 'To live in peace, one has to prepare for war'
The Drifters have so far made no effort to communicate through diplomacy, preferring to let their weapons do the talking. That's no sign of 'trying to be peaceful' to me.

I do remind you that Arek'Jaalan & others have made multiple attempts at peaceful communication, from gifting cultural & literal works from various cultures across Eden to giving them what they sought, capsuleer corpses; In quite some cases they even acknowledge the gifts, taking them, without something in return.

So the situation stands at this: People who approach Drifter operations too close are being shot at, irrelevant of location. Attempts of preventing them to collect information (aka spying, as they are another sovereign nation) is met with the harshest response, to the point of them hunting you down till you dock up or leave the area.
When the Drifters are provocated, they launch attacks with a fleet against those who did this, even if it was merely with words.

If any of the four nations (Gallente, Amarr, Caldari & Minmatar) were this triggerhappy, we already would been waging full blown wars for decades with each other...
With that said, there's no reason to try & upset the Drifters any more then they already are, simply for the fact we know practically nothing of them, no known systems where they build their ships or prepare the corpses for their purposes, hardly any info on their full strength & capacities.
In short, I advocate a guarded approach, ready yourself for future escalations.

To add, I don't think the Drifters are actually out to remove or conquer the Amarr however, to me it seems more they are trying to stop something, or preventing something to happen. This is a personal thought of mine,fueled by their possible reason in the first attack at Yulai, where they launched an attack to stop a broadcast to continue.

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Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2015-08-05 10:01:56 UTC
Drifters will lay siege to starbases to retrieve Entosis Links. And by "lay siege to starbases," I mean that they'll show up, put a tower into reinforced mode, wait out the timer, come back and blow it up. No non-capsuleer force has ever been known to do this before. Not the pirates, not Sansha (either version), not rogue drones, not Sleepers.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#128 - 2015-08-05 13:26:02 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Drifters will lay siege to starbases to retrieve Entosis Links. And by "lay siege to starbases," I mean that they'll show up, put a tower into reinforced mode, wait out the timer, come back and blow it up. No non-capsuleer force has ever been known to do this before. Not the pirates, not Sansha (either version), not rogue drones, not Sleepers.

... wow.

Um. Can you provide us a link to your source, Mr. Ixiris? Not that I doubt you, but ...

There's a lot of rumor around Drifters, and a lot of jumping to conclusions from data that didn't quite mean what people thought it did.

It's intriguing news, if verified. If they're tracking entosis links to capsuleer towers and laying siege, it might be possible to manipulate that behavior.

Do we know what happens if the entosis link is taken away?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#129 - 2015-08-05 13:36:38 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Drifters will lay siege to starbases to retrieve Entosis Links. And by "lay siege to starbases," I mean that they'll show up, put a tower into reinforced mode, wait out the timer, come back and blow it up. No non-capsuleer force has ever been known to do this before. Not the pirates, not Sansha (either version), not rogue drones, not Sleepers.

... wow.

Um. Can you provide us a link to your source, Mr. Ixiris? Not that I doubt you, but ...

There's a lot of rumor around Drifters, and a lot of jumping to conclusions from data that didn't quite mean what people thought it did.

It's intriguing news, if verified. If they're tracking entosis links to capsuleer towers and laying siege, it might be possible to manipulate that behavior.

Do we know what happens if the entosis link is taken away?


It is, in fact, possible to manipulate that behavior. Darkness experienced the behavior first-hand while besieging us in ED-L9T. They then took advantage of it by, as it was explained to me by their people, Entosising near a Seeker to provoke a single-Drifter response, then ducking back into an extremely hardened tower where a fleet waited. The Drifter would give chase, and be able to be destroyed after firing the lux.

IIRC, it didn't necessarily save the tower from later destruction, though.

And what do you mean by 'taken away'? Leaving system? Unfitted?
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#130 - 2015-08-05 14:28:13 UTC
Huh.

Arrendis wrote:
And what do you mean by 'taken away'? Leaving system? Unfitted?


I mean removing it from the starbase mid-siege. If the Drifters are trying to retrieve the links, will they break of the attack to give chase, or do they finish destroying the station? And will they leave the station alone thereafter, or do they just turn back up until the station falls?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#131 - 2015-08-05 14:46:45 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Huh.

Arrendis wrote:
And what do you mean by 'taken away'? Leaving system? Unfitted?


I mean removing it from the starbase mid-siege. If the Drifters are trying to retrieve the links, will they break of the attack to give chase, or do they finish destroying the station? And will they leave the station alone thereafter, or do they just turn back up until the station falls?


Mid-siege is about the time it takes to fire the Doomsday. Unlike titan doomsdays, it doesn't much seem to lose effectiveness when being fired at things smaller than a Naglfar.
Silvox Lunae
Perkone
Caldari State
#132 - 2015-08-05 19:48:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Silvox Lunae
Arrendis wrote:

No, they're not. Drifters will attack any ship using an Entosis Link within 25km of a Circadian Seeker. All sovereignty structures - including IHUBs, which carry the industrial upgrades for a system, must be Entosised when deployed.

Are you telling me that attempting to install an infrastructure hub in VFK-IV in order to ensure proper detection of pirate activity and ore deposits is an act of aggression against the Drifters?


In all due fairness, every single entosis link is manufactured from the remains of Drifter vessels. Given the nature of the entosis link, the Drifters considering it a hostile action is not surprising to me. Moreover, every capsuleer has the choice of participating in sovereign space. I am not denying your right to be active in null security space. Merely that if you decide to, you should accept the reality of the situation you face.

There are large numbers of capsuleers claiming that they must go to war against a foe who encroached upon them without provocation. I am noting that in fact the chain of events has been quite clear.
Silvox Lunae
Perkone
Caldari State
#133 - 2015-08-05 20:04:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Silvox Lunae
Jandice Ymladris wrote:



I do think we're past the point of the idea that Drifters merely want to be left alone. While no aggression has been shown towards anyone else but the Amarr & DED (and at DED they had a direct provocation), it would be wise to prepare for conflict nontheless.
A wise man once said 'To live in peace, one has to prepare for war'
The Drifters have so far made no effort to communicate through diplomacy, preferring to let their weapons do the talking. That's no sign of 'trying to be peaceful' to me.

I do remind you that Arek'Jaalan & others have made multiple attempts at peaceful communication, from gifting cultural & literal works from various cultures across Eden to giving them what they sought, capsuleer corpses; In quite some cases they even acknowledge the gifts, taking them, without something in return.

So the situation stands at this: People who approach Drifter operations too close are being shot at, irrelevant of location. Attempts of preventing them to collect information (aka spying, as they are another sovereign nation) is met with the harshest response, to the point of them hunting you down till you dock up or leave the area.
When the Drifters are provocated, they launch attacks with a fleet against those who did this, even if it was merely with words.

If any of the four nations (Gallente, Amarr, Caldari & Minmatar) were this triggerhappy, we already would been waging full blown wars for decades with each other...
With that said, there's no reason to try & upset the Drifters any more then they already are, simply for the fact we know practically nothing of them, no known systems where they build their ships or prepare the corpses for their purposes, hardly any info on their full strength & capacities.
In short, I advocate a guarded approach, ready yourself for future escalations.


I have never claimed that the Drifters only wish to be "left alone", and I apologize if my tone conveys that message. I would prefer you view it as a cautious consideration. Every empire should be considering the possibility of conflict with the Drifters, however that does not mean that every empire should be assisting the Amarr in what is currently an Amarrian problem. Certainly the State should not be dedicating valuable military resources to a situation the Amarr dragged themselves into with the Empress leading them head on.

Please do not mistake my notations of the Drifters only aggressing if fired upon first for them "trying to be peaceful". They are a far superior force whose goal is not conquest in the sense we are familiar with. I have never advocated for a complete, open stance towards the Drifters. I have only requested that the actions taken be deliberate with an understanding of the situation at hand.

Your claim that "People who approach Drifter operations too close are being shot at, irrelevant of location." does not apply in most cases. The locations that the Drifters have "claimed" such as the unidentified wormholes and Jove Observatories fit your description, however other Drifter operations such as the events at Safizon and the numerous daily gate scanning have not seen everyone who approaches them being shot at. Spectators and passerby were present at Safizon for the duration and were not fired upon by Drifter vessels unless they engaged first.

You are correct that if the current four empires were as aggressive as the Drifters, we would not exist today. However, the critical difference is that the Drifters are far more advanced. In this situation they hold the upper hand and lower civilizations have little choice but to attempt to avoid conflict as best as possible while preparing for it. At the very least, that would be the practical choice. My primary goal was to act as a foil towards all of the more impulsive capsuleers clamoring for joining the Amarr in a crumbling bastion against an overwhelming foe without discernible reason under questionable leadership.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#134 - 2015-08-05 20:26:20 UTC
Silvox Lunae wrote:
In all due fairness, every single entosis link is manufactured from the remains of Drifter vessels.


So is using a desk made of actual wood an act of aggression against all trees?
Silvox Lunae
Perkone
Caldari State
#135 - 2015-08-05 20:31:10 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Silvox Lunae wrote:
In all due fairness, every single entosis link is manufactured from the remains of Drifter vessels.


So is using a desk made of actual wood an act of aggression against all trees?


If the trees were sentient, I am certain they would consider it an act of aggression. Again to make myself clear, I am making an observation on the nature of the Drifters and why it would be expected for them to consider such an action a hostile one. I would imagine most sentient beings would view the usage of materials comprising their being as offensive assuming they follow the societal paradigms common in most cultures. I am not claiming it is morally right or wrong, simply that it is.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#136 - 2015-08-05 20:36:46 UTC
Silvox Lunae wrote:
If the trees were sentient, I am certain they would consider it an act of aggression. Again to make myself clear, I am making an observation on the nature of the Drifters and why it would be expected for them to consider such an action a hostile one. I would imagine most sentient beings would view the usage of materials comprising their being as offensive assuming they follow the societal paradigms common in most cultures. I am not claiming it is morally right or wrong, simply that it is.


Except the Drifters have bodies. The Antikythera doesn't come from their bodies, it comes from their ships, and their drones. The equivalent here is 'I consider it a moral offense for you to fit a 1400mm artillery on your ship because I am Matari and you must have gotten that from something a Matari once designed'.
Silvox Lunae
Perkone
Caldari State
#137 - 2015-08-05 20:48:33 UTC
Arrendis wrote:


Except the Drifters have bodies. The Antikythera doesn't come from their bodies, it comes from their ships, and their drones. The equivalent here is 'I consider it a moral offense for you to fit a 1400mm artillery on your ship because I am Matari and you must have gotten that from something a Matari once designed'.



The Sleeper technology Empress Sarum pulled from Anoikis contained the supposed conscious collective of the Sleeper entities. It was mounted in various pieces of equipment and Sleeper drones. With the nature of capsule piloting, and the level of cybernetic integration we have seen with these Drifters, the distinction that it comes from their ships versus their bodies may be an irrelevant one. When a capsuleer pilots a ship, it is an extension of ourselves. The capabilities of the entosis link would lead me to believe it plays a vital role in linking to a Drifter ship as well. Granted, our understanding of this technology is not well understood, but I believe enough proof of concept studies have been conducted to grant this viewpoint some credibility.

This is a far more involved piece of technology than a mere product of a manufacturing process removed from the individual. Existence as an infomorph, and as a capsuleer should be encouraging a broader scope of thinking beyond physical constraints.
Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
#138 - 2015-08-05 21:00:58 UTC
Silvox Lunae wrote:
Jandice Ymladris wrote:




Thank you for your clarification, it makes much more sense now.

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Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#139 - 2015-08-05 22:16:53 UTC
By the way, Ymladris-haani, not sure if I've said it properly: welcome back to the Summit! Always good to see a friendly face.

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Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
#140 - 2015-08-06 04:53:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jandice Ymladris
Thank you for the kind words Priano-haani, it feels good to be back in space & writing for Aurora News, it's been way too long!

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