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Do high-sec carebears really think they have any importance to nul-sec?

Author
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#121 - 2011-12-26 21:39:30 UTC
ban npc forum alts from CSM forums
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#122 - 2011-12-27 00:37:31 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
There is no 'us against them' because most of 'them' are so irrelevant to any aspect of 0.0 existance that they're barely noticeable.

Is that why you goons spend your time in hi sec harassing and grief playing hi sec players... Because they're just so irrelevant and unimportant to you?



no, because it's hilarious

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#123 - 2011-12-27 09:13:41 UTC
ps3ud0nym wrote:
Hey all. Here I am, a member of big bad TEST Alliance. One of the people who is "Out to ruin your game".

You are a splinter off Goons are you not, do they know and condone that you have stolen their raison d'etre? Smile
ps3ud0nym wrote:
One theme I have heard repeated over and over again is: "If you nerf high-sec, who will make all the ships and rigs for the PVPers in 0.0?" I have to ask, do you really believe that is true?...

Numbers rarely lie, the last several QEN's had a significant portion of all war material being built and sold in high, much larger portion than could ever be used in high so unless people like to build stuff and reproc it again when it doesn't sell there is really only one explanation.
ps3ud0nym wrote:
Lets just go over the economics of the situation....

Sounds like you have a nice little indentured servitude thing going and exploit the crap out of the new-comers, good on you! But if what you claim is true then why are the majority of null all clamouring for the promised manufacturing bump and where does the Jita-umbilical concept come from?
Yes, null can build everything it needs locally, but due to mining being :slitwrists: for most people and stations/POS having no where near enough slots to crank everything needed out consumption (ie. losses/mails) would need to be cut by .. well most of it really (90%+).
ps3ud0nym wrote:
0.0 doesn't need High-Sec in any way. Over the last little while, high sec has had a rather massive buff with the elimination of quality for agents...

Pretty awesome change for low-sec though, every agent is good so no more clusters for "leet ratter-gankers" to camp, probably not as big a change in high due to people wanting to stay close'ish to hubs for dumping their goods/loot but the idea itself - remove agent quality - was bang-on, CCP just needs to follow up on it, move some highways and such to create several more hubs and tweak the mission rewards.
NB: That is not the high horse you think it is, but rather a rundown old ass. Null is to low-sec what high is to null safety wise. Don't even try to play the risk:reward card as the system has all but been abandoned for null.
ps3ud0nym wrote:
I also read that it is impossible for a new alliance to get a foothold in 0.0...

So you stopped reading when it was convenient for your understanding of the systems involved, gotcha. No one has said it is impossible ;period;. What has and is being said is that it is impossible without bending over for -insert local sociopath- or having more friends than head-lice .. neither opens up null for newcomers in any way, shape or form. All it does is provide established null with risk-free ISK (risk taken by new guys) and a cheap workforce.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#124 - 2011-12-27 09:14:22 UTC
Continued due to "You can only quote 5 times" .. WTF!
ps3ud0nym wrote:
CCP has stated its vision for the game, and it is very much the same vision that those in nul also have. High-sec is supposed to be dependent on WH space, 0.0 and low-sec, not the other way around...

Do you happen to have a source for that claim? Last I heard the aim was to create a inter-dependency system between the areas.
What came up during the Farm&Fields discussions was that null should have the ability to become self-sufficient through hard work and coordination, not once did I read anything resembling what you claim. All of Eve is dependent on Worms since they have monopoly on the product, low-sec is for all intents and purposes high-sec (read: Empire space) and while a few more options exist through POS/PI/Drugs it follows the basic high "rules" (which is what we LS dwellers are bored/fed-up with).
ps3ud0nym wrote:
EVE is an open game....

Eve WAS an open game. The state changed when average server population frew above 30-35k or so (3+ years ago) and massive permanent blocs formed, until then big blocs were generally temporary and goal oriented. There is no 'freedom' if everything one does has to be OK'd by three committees and a 100 individuals .. Eve should be (and was) the pioneer US during the indian purge but has grown to become a multistory tenement in a modern urban area.
CCP simply neglected to evolve the mechanics to keep up with population increases .. the 'feel' was among the first casualties.

PS: Where does Goons-lite, aka. TEST, live now? Delve NPC space or something? Seems to me that it must be NPC space if you have slots enough to build what is needed, even on the small scale.
Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#125 - 2011-12-27 10:16:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Imigo Montoya
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Eve WAS an open game. The state changed when average server population frew above 30-35k or so (3+ years ago) and massive permanent blocs formed


No bloc is permanent, no matter how massive it is. Take the NC for example - it wasn't that long ago that people were complaining about the big blue blobfest, and look at it now.

It is also very possible to get into nullsec. There are NPC stations all over the place to make a home out of and plenty of alliances do just that. And for those who want to have a presence on the map and don't mind the odd invasion, it is also possible to stay under the radar of the big blocs and take a few systems of sov. Alternatively there are alliances who recruit corps, particularly those with combat records and not even necessarily good ones.

Where there's a will, there's a way.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#126 - 2011-12-27 14:22:58 UTC
Living out of ones suitcase in a NPC station is not exactly null living now is it. Worthwhile when hardening defence forces as there is always something going on, but living in a homeless shelter (which NPC stations are) permanently does not make it ones home.
And sure you can "ninja" a few systems of sov, but I think we both know that it only lasts until the resident fat-ass with a bazillion lemmings and/or supers gets bored enough to bother with you .. why don't you ask a generic small-business owner in an occupied territory with erratic neighbours how he would gauge his quality of living Smile

Being "recruited" into existing alliances/blue-seas is indeed the only real alternative these days, but since it usually involves giving up ones first and second-born as well as 99% taxation (slight exaggeration .. maybe) it is not really an option as the question always concerns new-comers, aka. independents and not the latest batch of slaves.

Null is bollocksed and needs a whack of the good old wrecking-ball before rebuilding it can proceed .. CCP did it once with their fabulously thought out and implemented Dominion (Trololololol) and something tells me they are aware that they need to go beyond even that level of disruption to really sort it which explains why it has so far taken them six+ months to release the promised follow-up blog to the "what we are working on in rgds. to null" blog.

The flow of tears will be epic.
Thredd Necro
Doomheim
#127 - 2011-12-27 15:52:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Thredd Necro
Imigo Montoya wrote:
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Eve WAS an open game. The state changed when average server population frew above 30-35k or so (3+ years ago) and massive permanent blocs formed


No bloc is permanent, no matter how massive it is. Take the NC for example - it wasn't that long ago that people were complaining about the big blue blobfest, and look at it now.

It is also very possible to get into nullsec. There are NPC stations all over the place to make a home out of and plenty of alliances do just that. And for those who want to have a presence on the map and don't mind the odd invasion, it is also possible to stay under the radar of the big blocs and take a few systems of sov. Alternatively there are alliances who recruit corps, particularly those with combat records and not even necessarily good ones.

Where there's a will, there's a way.


Blocs may not be permanent but look at the very former soviet union...it was around for quite a whileBlink

Remember that the essence of a good gank or ambush is to MINIMIZE risk and effort and while many are, muggers and pirates on the whole are usually not the hardest working people on the planet. It was always destined to happen that large enough power blocs would develop in EVE to reduce available, convenient, combat. If sov rules are adjusted to speed up certain aspects of conflict and aren't very carefully balanced it could lead to fewer blocs and even less combat as there will be fewer opponents to fight.Attention

Regardless of what some groups might like to think, in many ways 0.0 will just keep becoming more and more like highsec. It's just human nature.Twisted

Just like in Real Life.Bear

He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which. - Douglas Adams

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2011-12-27 15:58:31 UTC
ban npc forum alts from CSM forums
Nullbeard Rager
Doomheim
#129 - 2011-12-28 00:08:24 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
ban npc forum alts from CSM forums


Yes! We must ban npc forum alts...as they are NPCs and not PCs they must be bots and botting is against the EULAAttentionPirate

Field of Trolls:  "If you chum it, they will come."

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#130 - 2011-12-28 00:28:02 UTC
Exhibit A: ^^^
Nullbeard Rager
Doomheim
#131 - 2011-12-28 00:36:32 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Exhibit A: ^^^


Yup just keep on spamming...Pirate

Field of Trolls:  "If you chum it, they will come."

Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#132 - 2011-12-28 07:40:33 UTC
While Nicolo is doing so in a very succinct and terse manner, he does make a very valid point. It's far too easy for somebody to make an alt to hide behind and post any kind of trash anonymously.

Trolling is particularly common in these forums (all of eve-o, not just the CSM sub forum) which is just a big waste of time and space (as entertaining as it may be for the troll). The anonymity of an NPC corp character makes it very hard to tell who is simply uninformed and who is just trolling.

Then again, NPC corp characters can't post in CAOD and look how that turned out.
Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2011-12-28 15:47:31 UTC
Yeah less anonymity sounds great .... but would make reprisals way too easy ... then you'd only hear dominant points of view and ideas ... we'd miss out on the unexpected out of the box ideas from folks who don't belong to Goonswarm or TEST :)

Better to allow "oversharing" .... it's easy enough to ignore the posts you don't like.
Nullbeard Rager
Doomheim
#134 - 2011-12-28 16:02:56 UTC
Takara Mora wrote:
Yeah less anonymity sounds great .... but would make reprisals way too easy ... then you'd only hear dominant points of view and ideas ... we'd miss out on the unexpected out of the box ideas from folks who don't belong to Goonswarm or TEST :)

Better to allow "oversharing" .... it's easy enough to ignore the posts you don't like.


Exactly.

Field of Trolls:  "If you chum it, they will come."

Thredd Necro
Doomheim
#135 - 2011-12-28 16:19:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Thredd Necro
Imigo Montoya wrote:
While Nicolo is doing so in a very succinct and terse manner, he does make a very valid point. It's far too easy for somebody to make an alt to hide behind and post any kind of trash anonymously.

Trolling is particularly common in these forums (all of eve-o, not just the CSM sub forum) which is just a big waste of time and space (as entertaining as it may be for the troll). The anonymity of an NPC corp character makes it very hard to tell who is simply uninformed and who is just trolling.

Then again, NPC corp characters can't post in CAOD and look how that turned out.


It's not a valid point at all and Nicolo is just trolling. People post all manner of garbage and silliness on their mains all the time.

Ask people to post their verified Real Life info as a way of gaining access to the forums and see how that works out if you seek to eliminate anonymity.Blink

If SOMEONE doesn't have enough experience to tell if the OP knows what they are talking about then it stands to reason that perhaps THAT person doesn't know what THEY are talking about and so THEY need to STFU, regardless of which toon the OP is posting on, yes?Big smile

If a post seems to be a troll then STOP RIGHT THERE and walk away. Trolls typically want attention at any cost. Replying for ANY reason especially to say it's a stupid or irrelevant post means the troll wins and is encouraged to NOT do the one thing people keep SAYING they want the trolls to do--STOP posting.

For instance, Nicolo posted what he posted to get a reaction and it isn't relevant or helpful to the thread and he did it more than once. That's Trolling 101, kids.

Trolling against trolls is still trolling and it encourages trolling.

Try setting an example instead of doing the equivalent of running though a mall firing a pistol to promote handgun control.Roll

He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which. - Douglas Adams

Selina Steel
Doomheim
#136 - 2012-01-01 20:34:45 UTC
ps3ud0nym wrote:


Blah.



No.

Thredd Necro wrote:


Blah, blah?



No.

/end

Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2012-01-02 05:47:29 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:


Every highsec-carebear could log off and un-install EVE tomorrow and we'd barely notice apart from the reduced lag in market systems. The things we go to empire for are seeded by NPCs (skillbooks, BPOs), imported from other 0.0 regions (minerals), or manufactured by highsec alts of 0.0 based players.

There is no 'us against them' because most of 'them' are so irrelevant to any aspect of 0.0 existance that they're barely noticeable.


As a hi-sec player atm I could not agree with you more. I fully accept your premise that we are irrelevant to you and others like you.

Then again...you're not spectacularly relevant yourself.



Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2012-01-02 08:09:25 UTC
We've had more impact on EVE Online: A Bad Game, than you have. Just sayin'.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2012-01-02 17:08:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Hiply Rustic
The thing is, there is a place for both playstyles. Forcing a player where they don't want to go ultimately forces them where CCP does not want them to go, elsewhere.

If, as so many say, HiSec players are irrelevant to the NulSec players then why the hate? It's not exclusive to EvE in any way shape or form, nor are the NulSeccers breaking any new ground with carebear bashing. It's been going on far longer than EvE has existed and has been done every bit as artfully (artlessly?) in other games...with results just as profound. As in not at all profound. PvPers have been hurling insults at PvEers since the genre came to encompass both playstyles, and I don't see that changing. In the case of EvE it's even muddied beyond that because there are certainly PvPers in HiSec, so now the bashing isn't even based on how one choose to play, but rather where one chooses to play...which frankly makes even less sense.

The game is not a themeparked sandbox that takes a new player by the hand in hisec, through a guided progression themepark which then drops them naturally into a nulsec sandbox. It's simply not designed that way. It could have been, but it wasn't. In a sandbox the players make the game...or games...from within a framework implemented by the devs.

That two distinct games have developed within that framework is not a bad thing, and it has created an environment which has a sustainability that a nulsec-only or hisec to nulsec forced funnel would not. CCP now has a game which someone who wants a minimum of risk can play at the same time that high-risk adrenaline junkies can get their fix. From their perspective that has to be a good thing. They will not nerf one of those games into the ground at the request of those favoring the other game. It's not in their best interests to do so, and it won't happen.

The way to attract new blood to nulsec is not to berate and belittle your carebear counterparts, any more than the Darktide community's constant mocking of the rest of the Asheron's Call population caused people to migrate to that FFA server. You need to convince people playing in hisec that they truly are missing out on a lot of fun and that they won't be simply entering a world where they are nothing but cannon-fodder lured there for the benefit of the old blood.

I haven't seen anything here that comes close to that.

Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.

Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2012-01-02 17:19:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Takara Mora
I like what you're saying Hiply ... let's stop trying to force the two playstyles together and instead maximize both .... keep them loosely coupled (i.e.-ganks and pirating allowed as they currently are) ... but maybe if we stop trying to pretend that they have some deep transcendant dependence on each other, it would open up more viable long term game design options for CCP to retain more players in both communities.

IOW, why NOT allow nullsec to be completely independent of Hisec? Wouldn't bug me, as a mainly PVE/WH player in the slightest ... and why NOT create more ENDGAME type PVE content in Hisec (Incursion type stuff is maybe a good try so far).