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[Bounty Hunting] A Solution to Create a Near-perfect System

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Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2015-07-28 04:50:09 UTC
Boba Mereel wrote:
Your negativity is unecessary, counterproductive, and nonconstructive.



Whats counter productive is you dodging what is being brought up and taking things WAY out of context to suit your means. You requested I re-explain because apparently I didn't do it well enough the first time. So I did.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Boba Mereel
Doomheim
#82 - 2015-07-28 05:52:07 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Boba Mereel wrote:
Your negativity is unecessary, counterproductive, and nonconstructive.



Whats counter productive is you dodging what is being brought up and taking things WAY out of context to suit your means. You requested I re-explain because apparently I didn't do it well enough the first time. So I did.


Could you display you ideas to improve my idea in bullet form?
Sigras
Conglomo
#83 - 2015-07-28 08:32:04 UTC
Banana1x wrote:
Sigras wrote:
then what's to stop me from collaborating with my target and splitting the bounty? I also like content that new players can jump right into, but:

Bounty is paid out on 20% damage done. Exactly as it is now.

Oh, you mean the terrible broken system that nobody uses because pretty much everyone agrees it is both terrible and broken... That system? you want to keep with that system?

Banana1x wrote:
Sigras wrote:
1. I dont think bounty hunting is the kind of thing that 1 day noobs should be doing

Why not? A new player could be an effective tackle ship in a small gang of bounty hunters.

That is true, but high sec aggro mechanics are among the most frustrating in the game to figure out, and this frustration would lead have the opposite effect of the player retention you were going for. If they are in a gang of hunters, then this is by no means a barrier to them because the gang (corp) would already have its reputation to draw new contracts.
Sigras
Conglomo
#84 - 2015-07-28 08:38:17 UTC
Banana1x wrote:
Sigras wrote:
2. I imagine that there would be bounty hunting corps like Mercenary Coalition that the new players could join to get into this content.

You can do this right now. Just get someone to pay you to wardec someone else.

That isnt how people hire groups like PL or MC to do things for them... nobody cares if you war dec an alliance, what they want are boots on the ground in 0.0

This system would allow alliances to provide performance based rewards for their mercenaries... something you cannot donow, or you could but it would be untenably difficult.

Banana1x wrote:
Sigras wrote:
3. I would rather have a good, water tight system that is inaccessible to new players than a crappy one that anyone can take part in (which is essentially what we have now)

I don't think what you've described is water tight. It's exclusionary and offers no real difference over the wardec mechanic.

you have yet to provide any evidence that this system is exclusionary... if you had a bounty profile that you could set up so that you could work for cheap or were willing to travel to hunt your target down, im sure you could find a niche that someone needs you to fill. And besides, Eve is supposed to be cut-throat.

If you think this feature proposal is in any way eclipsed by the war dec mechanic then you either dont understand the proposal or the war dec mechanics ... probably both.
Jason Amelana
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#85 - 2015-07-28 09:02:22 UTC
I love The Idea!Shocked
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#86 - 2015-07-28 14:20:12 UTC
Sigras wrote:
but high sec aggro mechanics are among the most frustrating in the game to figure out

I hear this all the time, actually high sec aggression is extremely easy to understand.

-5 or below shoot on sight if you can catch them - no concordoken.
Your corp has an active war dec against the corp your intended target is in - shoot on sight no concodoken.
Your target has a criminal flag - shoot on sight no concordoken.
For virtually all other situations if you shoot you will get the visit from concord.
Seems awfully easy to understand to me, but hey I guess I am just crazy or maybe just stupid enough that I easily see through these supposedly hard to understand things.

I still believe that the biggest problem any bounty hunting system faces is the Concord mechanic and the simple question.
Outside of the war dec system should players be able to eliminate Concord from the equation?

If not then bounty hunting is dead in high sec unless it is tied to the criminal flag system in some way since the criminal flag system already bypasses Concord.

If you do think players should be allowed to bypass the Concord mechanic then specifically what limits do you place on the system to prevent it from being used as a tool to harass / grief other players? And I do mean specific here not some vague reference to "x" something or another.

I am going to pick on my son for an example.
He has 5 accounts, even if each character can only place 1 bounty at a time he could still keep 15 other characters under permanent bounties if he choose to do so. If he gets his real life friends who all have 5 accounts each in on the harassment / griefing thing they could keep 375 characters under permanent bounties.
What in your system would prevent this?
Can this type of activity be prevented when / if you allow players to take Concord out of the equation?
How high do you have to raise the ISK fees to try and prevent this?
If you raise them that high would that make the system to expensive for anyone to actually use?

There are as many opinions about this as there are players in the game but one thing just seems to make sense.
CCP has restricted the bounty system to it's current form because they cannot find any other way to protect players from abuses of the system, or they are not willing to dedicate the dev time to work out and implement a better system. My vote is on the former that they cannot figure a way to allow a more open bounty system that cannot be abused.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2015-07-28 18:12:25 UTC
Boba Mereel wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Boba Mereel wrote:
Your negativity is unecessary, counterproductive, and nonconstructive.



Whats counter productive is you dodging what is being brought up and taking things WAY out of context to suit your means. You requested I re-explain because apparently I didn't do it well enough the first time. So I did.


Could you display you ideas to improve my idea in bullet form?


No I can't. A bad idea like this can't be salvaged. You cannot have both 'Safe high sec via concord' and mechanics which grant you random freedom to shoot anyone who happens to have a bounty, and happens to get there name drawn from a hat, free of Concord response. Not while anyone can place a bounty at any point. And restricting bounties to just kill rights is pretty narrow and pointless, given that you can already make kill rights available to everyone for free. Bounty hunting is a useless system, and has no real place in eve, not while concord is a thing. Get rid of concord and faction police then yeah, it becomes viable. But again, there cannot be concord and no concord at the same time in any better of a way than crime watch and war decs already allow while maintaining any semblance of balance.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#88 - 2015-07-28 19:16:28 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Sigras wrote:
but high sec aggro mechanics are among the most frustrating in the game to figure out

I hear this all the time, actually high sec aggression is extremely easy to understand.

-5 or below shoot on sight if you can catch them - no concordoken.
Your corp has an active war dec against the corp your intended target is in - shoot on sight no concodoken.
Your target has a criminal flag - shoot on sight no concordoken.
For virtually all other situations if you shoot you will get the visit from concord.
Seems awfully easy to understand to me, but hey I guess I am just crazy or maybe just stupid enough that I easily see through these supposedly hard to understand things.

I still believe that the biggest problem any bounty hunting system faces is the Concord mechanic and the simple question.
Outside of the war dec system should players be able to eliminate Concord from the equation?

If not then bounty hunting is dead in high sec unless it is tied to the criminal flag system in some way since the criminal flag system already bypasses Concord.

If you do think players should be allowed to bypass the Concord mechanic then specifically what limits do you place on the system to prevent it from being used as a tool to harass / grief other players? And I do mean specific here not some vague reference to "x" something or another.

I am going to pick on my son for an example.
He has 5 accounts, even if each character can only place 1 bounty at a time he could still keep 15 other characters under permanent bounties if he choose to do so. If he gets his real life friends who all have 5 accounts each in on the harassment / griefing thing they could keep 375 characters under permanent bounties.
What in your system would prevent this?
Can this type of activity be prevented when / if you allow players to take Concord out of the equation?
How high do you have to raise the ISK fees to try and prevent this?
If you raise them that high would that make the system to expensive for anyone to actually use?

There are as many opinions about this as there are players in the game but one thing just seems to make sense.
CCP has restricted the bounty system to it's current form because they cannot find any other way to protect players from abuses of the system, or they are not willing to dedicate the dev time to work out and implement a better system. My vote is on the former that they cannot figure a way to allow a more open bounty system that cannot be abused.


Honestly there is nothing against a person placing bounties on all of EvE, i knew a guy once called a bounty bot because thats all he did to people, put a 100k bounty on them. think it was part of his own personal intel network doing that.

Anyway the idea is to set a minimum limit before someone can even be chased by a hunter....if you or your son really wish to waste the time doing this then go ahead, nothing is stopping you...emergent play and all that.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#89 - 2015-07-28 19:22:18 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Boba Mereel wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Boba Mereel wrote:
Your negativity is unecessary, counterproductive, and nonconstructive.



Whats counter productive is you dodging what is being brought up and taking things WAY out of context to suit your means. You requested I re-explain because apparently I didn't do it well enough the first time. So I did.


Could you display you ideas to improve my idea in bullet form?


No I can't. A bad idea like this can't be salvaged. You cannot have both 'Safe high sec via concord' and mechanics which grant you random freedom to shoot anyone who happens to have a bounty, and happens to get there name drawn from a hat, free of Concord response. Not while anyone can place a bounty at any point. And restricting bounties to just kill rights is pretty narrow and pointless, given that you can already make kill rights available to everyone for free. Bounty hunting is a useless system, and has no real place in eve, not while concord is a thing. Get rid of concord and faction police then yeah, it becomes viable. But again, there cannot be concord and no concord at the same time in any better of a way than crime watch and war decs already allow while maintaining any semblance of balance.



are you afraid of bounty hunters? are you afraid of them having the real ability to enforce something as a style of play?

Gankers already go around despite Concord....maybe some people like the idea of being an actual privateer doing Concord's job before the target does something, or maybe hunting those that have done something to be bountied in the first place.

Seriously, I have a 10 million bounty on myself even....and I am not going to cry and whine if someone suddenly shows up to blap my tengu while missioning....all i can say is good luck hunter, even if they have friends so do i.
Sigras
Conglomo
#90 - 2015-07-28 19:48:48 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
I still believe that the biggest problem any bounty hunting system faces is the Concord mechanic and the simple question.
Outside of the war dec system should players be able to eliminate Concord from the equation?

If not then bounty hunting is dead in high sec unless it is tied to the criminal flag system in some way since the criminal flag system already bypasses Concord.

If you do think players should be allowed to bypass the Concord mechanic then specifically what limits do you place on the system to prevent it from being used as a tool to harass / grief other players? And I do mean specific here not some vague reference to "x" something or another.

I believe I would limit bounty hunting "privileges" to people including kill rights with their bounty. That way no additional mechanic needs to be created, everyone knows the kill right system and you have to do something bad to someone to get one against you.

I know that you can already purchase kill rights, but if I hire someone to go after you, I should really give them my kill rights on you in order to do the most damage possible... they should not have to buy them from me.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#91 - 2015-07-28 19:59:40 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
I still believe that the biggest problem any bounty hunting system faces is the Concord mechanic and the simple question.
Outside of the war dec system should players be able to eliminate Concord from the equation?

If not then bounty hunting is dead in high sec unless it is tied to the criminal flag system in some way since the criminal flag system already bypasses Concord.

If you do think players should be allowed to bypass the Concord mechanic then specifically what limits do you place on the system to prevent it from being used as a tool to harass / grief other players? And I do mean specific here not some vague reference to "x" something or another.

I believe I would limit bounty hunting "privileges" to people including kill rights with their bounty. That way no additional mechanic needs to be created, everyone knows the kill right system and you have to do something bad to someone to get one against you.

I know that you can already purchase kill rights, but if I hire someone to go after you, I should really give them my kill rights on you in order to do the most damage possible... they should not have to buy them from me.


ok still this idea does not include placing bounties on like corp thieves, an awoxer, etc......where is the retribution in that especially if that character simply resides in an npc corp for a lon period of time? hence the need for bounty hunters and an actually working profession, not this broken system we have right now.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#92 - 2015-07-28 20:03:49 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Why no bounties for bumping, ninja salvaging, scamming, scanning, site stealing, mission item theft, corp theft, spying, awful forums posting or any of the other hundreds of reasons we like to put bounties on one another?

Why should bounty hunting be a good guy thing? Are you saying boba fett was a good guy?



depending on the perspective you take....yes Boba Fett was a good guy, many smugglers and such feared and despised him...he worked on mostly contracts that of course came from the Empire...it was the lawful goverment of the time, so yes he was a good guy.
Boba Mereel
Doomheim
#93 - 2015-07-28 20:15:07 UTC
If I may ask, can everyone please re-read pages 1 and 2 from top to bottom again. There seems to be confusion over how the mechanics I came up with work. If clarification is needed please post your questions in a listed form so I may swiftly provide an appropriate answer, thank you.
Sigras
Conglomo
#94 - 2015-07-28 20:17:23 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
I still believe that the biggest problem any bounty hunting system faces is the Concord mechanic and the simple question.
Outside of the war dec system should players be able to eliminate Concord from the equation?

If not then bounty hunting is dead in high sec unless it is tied to the criminal flag system in some way since the criminal flag system already bypasses Concord.

If you do think players should be allowed to bypass the Concord mechanic then specifically what limits do you place on the system to prevent it from being used as a tool to harass / grief other players? And I do mean specific here not some vague reference to "x" something or another.

I believe I would limit bounty hunting "privileges" to people including kill rights with their bounty. That way no additional mechanic needs to be created, everyone knows the kill right system and you have to do something bad to someone to get one against you.

I know that you can already purchase kill rights, but if I hire someone to go after you, I should really give them my kill rights on you in order to do the most damage possible... they should not have to buy them from me.


ok still this idea does not include placing bounties on like corp thieves, an awoxer, etc......where is the retribution in that especially if that character simply resides in an npc corp for a lon period of time? hence the need for bounty hunters and an actually working profession, not this broken system we have right now.

This is the benefit of the system I detailed earlier where you could hire specific people to take out your target wherever they were.

Maybe theres a corp who specializes in high sec ganking, and sure their prices are high, but they also have a good success rate, and they are known for their high isk take downs.

in my system you could place a bounty on anyone, but that doesnt make them free game in high sec unless you have kill rights.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#95 - 2015-07-28 20:25:56 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
I still believe that the biggest problem any bounty hunting system faces is the Concord mechanic and the simple question.
Outside of the war dec system should players be able to eliminate Concord from the equation?

If not then bounty hunting is dead in high sec unless it is tied to the criminal flag system in some way since the criminal flag system already bypasses Concord.

If you do think players should be allowed to bypass the Concord mechanic then specifically what limits do you place on the system to prevent it from being used as a tool to harass / grief other players? And I do mean specific here not some vague reference to "x" something or another.

I believe I would limit bounty hunting "privileges" to people including kill rights with their bounty. That way no additional mechanic needs to be created, everyone knows the kill right system and you have to do something bad to someone to get one against you.

I know that you can already purchase kill rights, but if I hire someone to go after you, I should really give them my kill rights on you in order to do the most damage possible... they should not have to buy them from me.


ok still this idea does not include placing bounties on like corp thieves, an awoxer, etc......where is the retribution in that especially if that character simply resides in an npc corp for a lon period of time? hence the need for bounty hunters and an actually working profession, not this broken system we have right now.

This is the benefit of the system I detailed earlier where you could hire specific people to take out your target wherever they were.

Maybe theres a corp who specializes in high sec ganking, and sure their prices are high, but they also have a good success rate, and they are known for their high isk take downs.

in my system you could place a bounty on anyone, but that doesnt make them free game in high sec unless you have kill rights.


Then all your asking is not change the system at all, because what you are asking is how things are NOW.
Sigras
Conglomo
#96 - 2015-07-28 21:37:26 UTC
so you're saying that I can place a bounty on you that pays out 100% instead of 20% but is only redeemable by Boba Fett?

Wow, I should totally do that... /sarcasm

Seriously, the only problem with the bounty system is that the 20% payout is not enough motivation for anyone to actually hunt them, but I understand why that restriction is in place, so people dont suicide to their own alts.
If you could specify only certain people being able to redeem the bounty, it would eliminate that problem so you could pay 100% or even 300% if you really really wanted that person dead.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#97 - 2015-07-28 23:14:37 UTC
Sigras wrote:
so you're saying that I can place a bounty on you that pays out 100% instead of 20% but is only redeemable by Boba Fett?

Wow, I should totally do that... /sarcasm

Seriously, the only problem with the bounty system is that the 20% payout is not enough motivation for anyone to actually hunt them, but I understand why that restriction is in place, so people dont suicide to their own alts.
If you could specify only certain people being able to redeem the bounty, it would eliminate that problem so you could pay 100% or even 300% if you really really wanted that person dead.


That is why, i and it seems a few others are not opposed to a system that will give a random contract to a hunter that is...
1.) Required to have a .05 Sec Status
2.) does not have a bounty on himself already
3.) and can only get a portion of said bounty by killing target, to get the rest you have turnn in like say a corpse to the agent you got the bounty from.

Really the most breaking about the bounty system as is right now....is the fact it is totally player generated. to make the profession actually work (imo) besides being a working profession is that it REQUIRES npc interaction.
Boba Mereel
Doomheim
#98 - 2015-07-28 23:36:55 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Sigras wrote:
so you're saying that I can place a bounty on you that pays out 100% instead of 20% but is only redeemable by Boba Fett?

Wow, I should totally do that... /sarcasm

Seriously, the only problem with the bounty system is that the 20% payout is not enough motivation for anyone to actually hunt them, but I understand why that restriction is in place, so people dont suicide to their own alts.
If you could specify only certain people being able to redeem the bounty, it would eliminate that problem so you could pay 100% or even 300% if you really really wanted that person dead.


That is why, i and it seems a few others are not opposed to a system that will give a random contract to a hunter that is...
1.) Required to have a .05 Sec Status
2.) does not have a bounty on himself already
3.) and can only get a portion of said bounty by killing target, to get the rest you have turnn in like say a corpse to the agent you got the bounty from.

Really the most breaking about the bounty system as is right now....is the fact it is totally player generated. to make the profession actually work (imo) besides being a working profession is that it REQUIRES npc interaction.


Yep, that bascially sums up everything I said in the original post and pages 1&2. Smile
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#99 - 2015-07-29 02:27:03 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Honestly there is nothing against a person placing bounties on all of EvE, i knew a guy once called a bounty bot because thats all he did to people, put a 100k bounty on them. think it was part of his own personal intel network doing that.

Under the current system no one even cares if they have a bounty because it is meaningless UNLESS you provide the proper situation to allow someone to kill you to collect. In other words you have to do something that gives you a criminal flag, or something that gives a player kill rights that can be sold. Under the system as stated in the OP anyone can put a bounty on any other player same as it is now. The difference in the OP idea is that the very act of placing that bounty makes you a legitimate target for a bounty hunter even if you have NO CRIMINAL FLAG and NO KILL RIGHTS against you and even in high sec you would have NO Concord protections. It is this ability for a player to so easily bypass Concord protections that I am most concerned about.


Boba Mereel there is no confusion in my mind in fact you even stated it plainly back on page 1.
Boba Mereel wrote:
The bounty right allows the hunter to kill the target anywhere(except in stations of course), anytime. Please note that bounties will more often than not be placed on pirates and gankers more than anything else, so killing pirates and gankers in lowsec and highsec will actually help the flow of trade as now there is a force to counteract pirates and gankers.

It is your opinion that bounties would for the most part be placed on gankers etc and in that you are wrong. Never underestimate the ability and the willingness of players to use game mechanics simply to harass and grief others simply because they can. And it is for this reason that the only time a player should be allowed to negate Concord protections is under a war dec.

Max Deveron wrote:
ok still this idea does not include placing bounties on like corp thieves, an awoxer, etc......where is the retribution in that especially if that character simply resides in an npc corp for a lon period of time? hence the need for bounty hunters and an actually working profession, not this broken system we have right now.

In many ways I am inclined to agree with you and I need to respond to these as separate items.

For corp thieves a system could be set up that allows for a CEO / Directors for lack of a better way of describing it issue a request for an arrest warrant. If sufficient information to prove guilt was provided then the thief would gain a criminal flag making him vulnerable to bounties and they would not have Concord protections because of the criminal flag.

AWOXers are a non-issue, the CEO already has the tools required to handle this in the game. If the CEO does not allow intra-corp aggression the an AWOXer gains a criminal flag for shooting a corp mate. Bounty is placed and bounty hunter is free to engage without Concord since the target has a criminal flag. If the CEO allows for intra-corp aggression and you do not like the possible outcomes then leave the corp, or have a serious talk with your CEO.

For either of these to work the criminal flag timer would have to be extended a lot. But then I do not see a problem with that as the current timer is to short by abolut 3 or 4 days anyway so extending it to cover the 3 days a bounty would be valid covers both ideas.

As you can see from these brief examples we can come to a workable solution to the bounty hunter problem without opening it up as the OP has suggested in ways that can and would be abused to harass and grief others.
Boba Mereel
Doomheim
#100 - 2015-07-29 02:44:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Boba Mereel
Quote:
It is your opinion that bounties would for the most part be placed on gankers etc and in that you are wrong. Never underestimate the ability and the willingness of players to use game mechanics simply to harass and grief others simply because they can. And it is for this reason that the only time a player should be allowed to negate Concord protections is under a war dec


A bounty can't be placed on a person unless they agress you and then kill you. Under no other circumstances will you be able to place a bounty. There would be a limit to how many bounties one person can place at a time to prevent griefing, but it is literally impossible to grief someone with this system due to the fact they have to attack you first, then kill you. You will not be given the option to place a bounty if you agressed the person first.

Also once a persons bounty placement queue is full, if they get killed again the right to place a bounty on the person that killed them will be put on a wait list and will become avalible to place once the queue has a free space. It should only take around 10 minutes for a bounty slot to be emptied do to the fact bounties will be swiftly acquired by bounty hunters.

Also also..... you only can keep the right to place a bounty on someone for 24 hours after the offer.

Also also also..... if the bounty queue (for whatever reason) stays full past 24 hours, and the offer time limit for bounties on the wait list expires, then too bad.