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TerminalDogma press release regarding Jamyl Sarum I
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iyammarrok
Drunken Beaver Mining
#41 - 2015-07-28 15:01:57 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Scanning is not an assault prohibited by any CONCORD codicil, else any person using a cargo scanner would trigger a DED response. At the time Raish was shot, he had communicated compliance with the holdoff order and was in the process of retreating.

He used an Entosis Link on her ship, which, by definition, is a module designed to infiltrate, compromise and sabotage systems to gain control over them or the entire object. This is in absolutely no way comparable to traditional scanning modules such as cargo or ship scanners. Any comparison of the EL to these modules is naive.
He had never communicated compliance with the request to cease and desist, nor has he ever shown any sign of moving to the requested distance from the titan. He only stopped linking the ship after he "learned what they wanted to learn". Even after that, he was not retreating, but idling around in relative proximity to the titan and fleet.


And here we go again.

You once again claim that Raish used 'an entosis link' on the titan.
An entosis link WILL NOT ACTIVATE when used against capsuleer piloted vessels.

This has been proven, it is fact.

Ergo, Mentor Raish did not use an entosis link.
He may have used a piece of technology similar to an entosis link, or even the technology an entosis link is derived from, however, it is fact that the item you are so adamant has been used, cannot have been used.

Furthermore, an entosis link, even if used, allows it's user to project a portion of their conciousness onto it's target to cause an effect as desired by it's user.
Your description of it's effects upon nullsec sov structures is therefore moot, as it is the pilot who desires to claim space that destroys the structure in question, not the link itself.

It is widely observed, that the Circadian seekers have entosis link like scanning ability, that does not have such a damaging effect, and that effect can, and often is, used upon capsuleer piloted vessels. it is also widely observed that these scans, when performed, have no discernable negative effects.

it is therefore, a relatively safe assumption, that the scanning device used by Mentor Raish, was far more likely to be akin to the non-damaging version (or utilisation) observed in use by Circadian seekers, rather than the aggressively utilised versions that cause damage in null.

It is also worth noting that I have yet to see a report of a Capsuleer detonating a Jovian observatory through repeated use of a standard entosis link upon one, so the claim that they invariably cause cataclysmic system failure and destruction is proven false.

Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#42 - 2015-07-28 15:03:17 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Haruchai Khan wrote:
If the Entosis Link scan cannot lock these ships


They cannot.


As far as we know. We know there are many things we are prohibited from activating in certain locations. We can't activate smartbombs within certain ranges of stations in high security space, we can't even see significant parts of civilian traffic in space and more. Obviously this is a reasonable precaution by the powers that be, or there wouldn't be a station left in New Eden or planets that hadn't gotten a taste of a battleship broadside, sooner or later.

Since we know the ship had an Entosis link equipped, a fairly standard one as far as the report shows, and every eye witness to the event saw what would appear to be an Entosis link activated, that remains the most likely thing to have happened. He locked the vessel and activated the Entosis link on it.

We can't, but that doesn't mean the Entosis link is somehow lacking the capability. It just means we don't have the capacity to make it happen, just like with certain other limited hardware on our vessels.

So, a few assumptions to make, reasonable or not.

1. What was used was indeed an Entosis link.
2. SoCT has figured out a way to use the hardware differently than intended or...
3. The hardware is intended for this purpose but capsuleers in general are prohibited its use.

This implies...

4. SoCT's actions were indeed legally mandated and accepted by those regulating such use of the hardware or...
5. SoCT has found a way past the limitations of capsuleer interfaces.

From this, things get a bit too far into wild and baseless assumption lands, but there are some fairly interesting possibilities suggested by these assumptions.

Of course, they might be entirely wrong. Simply put, we need more information and the SoCT seems to be the ones holding most of the answers we seek, including whatever they obtained from Her Imperial Jammies.
iyammarrok
Drunken Beaver Mining
#43 - 2015-07-28 15:07:27 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Borascus wrote:

I'm also surprised a failure in the succession trials is good enough for the (albeit mighty) Amarr Empire, given their demands for sacred flesh. How can it be that a failure in the succession trials is still considered sacred. Jamyl failed the succession trial. Originally,that was God's will.


God is omnipotent. You can't be omnipotent without the ability to change your mind.

I have to wonder if you're mistaking terminology here Rodj.

You can clearly be omnipotent without changing your mind. Power alone does not require reason.

Omnipresent, that's also a possibility. Everywhere and everywhen, no need even for sentience for this to be the case.

Omniscient, now, that is the difficult one. The ability to 'change your mind' and claim that it was simply the right time for a change would be remarkably useful in this regard.

Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#44 - 2015-07-28 15:32:29 UTC
A God can change its mind in the same manner that a river can change its course. What's a wild turn to the fish is a stationary bank to the river.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#45 - 2015-07-28 15:44:20 UTC
iyammarrok wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
God is omnipotent. You can't be omnipotent without the ability to change your mind.

You can clearly be omnipotent without changing your mind. Power alone does not require reason.


Except, of course, that if you can't change your mind, then there is something you can't do. If there's something you can't do, you're not omnipotent, kinda by definition.

The old 'can God make a rock so heavy he can't lift it' thing? The answer is 'yes, but by doing so, he ceases to be God, so he chooses not to'.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#46 - 2015-07-28 15:50:38 UTC
iyammarrok wrote:
You once again claim that Raish used 'an entosis link' on the titan.
An entosis link WILL NOT ACTIVATE when used against capsuleer piloted vessels.

This has been proven, it is fact.

Ergo, Mentor Raish did not use an entosis link.


CONCORD's analysis of the wreckage confirmed Mentor Raish used a standard 2nd-Generation Entosis Link. The wreckage itself showed no unusual technology.

This leads to two possibilities:

1)CONCORD is lying. Never ever ever ever rule this out.

2)The reason it worked wasn't on the Mentor's ship, but on the ship... being piloted by the person who gave the Entosis shielding to the rest of the cluster. The person who clearly, by virtue of giving it to the rest of the cluster, has had this technology for long enough to not feel like it was an advantage she couldn't let anyone else get a hold of.

Which means there's a good chance it's a technology the Amarr have already made progress developing further. Perhaps even adapting it for the Empress' Avatar.

Is there proof for this? Nope. But it can't be ruled out at this time. All we know is that something on one of those ships was decidedly non-standard... and CONCORD says the Gnosis wasn't it.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#47 - 2015-07-28 15:58:27 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Haruchai Khan wrote:
If the Entosis Link scan cannot lock these ships


They cannot.


As far as we know. We know there are many things we are prohibited from activating in certain locations.


As far as we know, yes - which includes directly locking up an Avatar and trying it, though I admit, I wasn't flying a Gnosis at the time. I should get my Gnosis configured with an Entosis Link to test that on one of our Avatars.

Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
From this, things get a bit too far into wild and baseless assumption lands, but there are some fairly interesting possibilities suggested by these assumptions.

Of course, they might be entirely wrong. Simply put, we need more information and the SoCT seems to be the ones holding most of the answers we seek, including whatever they obtained from Her Imperial Jammies.


Indeed. You know, the more I think about it, the more curious it is: why was he so close?

As mentioned, CONCORD says it was a Tech II Entosis Link. The one on my Onyx functions to 250 kilometers. He was ordered to withdraw to 100 kilometers.

Why not just sit at range and flip her the bird?
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#48 - 2015-07-28 16:22:41 UTC
Interesting point, which frankly lends a certain bit of credibility to the notion that he knew exactly what would happen and did in fact bank on it. As stated earlier, SoCT aren't fools.
Natheniel
Kurupt.
Sedition.
#49 - 2015-07-28 18:00:17 UTC
Have you guys even considered the chance that jamyl wasn't actually in a capsule piloting the avatar? Just because she's a capsuleer doesn't mean she can't stand on the bridge of a non capsuleer ship.

"Life is as a storm, one must be prepared for the hardship and scorn. But with in this is a light, one for which we must fight. For hope is our weapon and our dreams are our shield. When fully armed we can not be felled from the field."
Feu dAstres
Nox Draconum Holding Corp
#50 - 2015-07-28 18:24:54 UTC
And ... if Jamyl is implanted with stolen Sleeper technology, she may be much the same as the original Templars in many aspects.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#51 - 2015-07-28 21:23:06 UTC
Natheniel wrote:
Have you guys even considered the chance that jamyl wasn't actually in a capsule piloting the avatar? Just because she's a capsuleer doesn't mean she can't stand on the bridge of a non capsuleer ship.


Certainly possible.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#52 - 2015-07-28 21:31:14 UTC
Unlikely. I've never seen a capsuleer vessel fly under one name but actually be piloted by another.

Of course, possible but unprecedented as far as I know.
Will Gauss
TerminalDogma
Lucky Starbase Syndicate
#53 - 2015-07-29 02:26:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Will Gauss
Essentially, SoCT is claiming that their investigation was in regards to an existential threat to the cluster. Jamyl's claim is that she was attempting to cease SoCT's scanning of her vessel. Given that the order to fire came after SoCT scanning had completed, we can falsify and invalidate Jamyl's claim and view her statements with less credibility when seen through the lens of her recent erratic behavior and questionable reappearance. We are left therefore, with SoCT appearing to consider Jamyl an existential threat. Given Jamyl's response to this, it is enough to raise my eyebrow. TerminalDogma would not normally buy into another's credibility alone, but SoCT, and the Directorate which gave rise to it has a history of looking out for our well being. I will therefore trust the Directorate and those who answer to it such as SoCT well above the restricted and potentially illegitimate Empress who has recently essentially gone rogue and is discarding her obligations left and right.

TerminalDogma therefore will until evidence surfaces simply accept SoCT's determination that Jamyl Sarum I is an existential threat to the cluster and extend this status to anyone who takes orders from a chain leading to Jamyl. Once evidence arises this position will be re-evaluated to reduce the faith and trust and replace it with reason and evidence however.
The Golden Serpent
A Drunken Squirrels' Conspiracy for Revenge
#54 - 2015-07-30 09:54:16 UTC
Will Gauss you're such a big huge fedo stinking liar, and you're putting words in the mouth of the SOCT.

Also God brought her holiness back to life, it didn't violate the sacred flesh doctrine, don't you know anything? No you don't know anything and your mouth is covered in feces and your breath stinks.

Either that guy, I forgot his name....he was scanning on his own and doing it in such a stupid way no one could believe SOCT was behind it and even if it was it wouldn't put its name to such a stupid action, acting like a terrorist at an event only Amarrians should have been and.

AND also he was probably a capsuleer no one would do something so stupid without being a capsuleer.

I will tell you once if you ever target anyone in Amarr they will shoot you back Empress or not.

Also Max Singularity WAS THERE and she did not shoot him, he probably wasn't scanning her ship like a creepy perverted criminal terrorist, even though that's what he is but targeting for whatever reason is AN ACT OF WAR.

IT IS!

-:¦:-•:'":•.-:¦:-•* K H A N I D •-:¦:-•:''''*:•-:¦:-
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#55 - 2015-07-30 12:06:14 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
It was clear to those witnessing the event, that there was something quite abnormal with the situation.
As a standard T2 entosys link would be incapable of locking onto and affecting the titan, it was clearly not standard.
We do not know the effects within the titan, the fact they were aware of it implies there were effects.
The effects were such Jamyl identified it as an attack.

Only the participants were aware of what was truly happening.

If my ship was being shaken apart, I would not care if the attacker told me he was only being friendly.

I would blow him out of he sky and let God decide his guilt.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Arrendis
TK Corp
#56 - 2015-07-30 13:30:53 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
As a standard T2 entosys link would be incapable of locking onto and affecting the titan, it was clearly not standard.


Or the titan wasn't. Jamyl Sarum handed out station/IHUB/TCU Entosis shielding to the rest of the cluster like it was nothing. An Avatar generates a hell of a lot more power than a TCU. It's not impossible that her Avatar's using Entosis shielding.

Someone should conduct testing on that, purely for research purposes. Fifteen hundred Tornados should do.
Borascus
#57 - 2015-07-30 13:31:54 UTC
It's entirely plausible that the Society of Conscious Thought was attempting to ascertain why there was no record of Jamyl Sarum in the cluster for 5 years, surely such information would be present within the Titan's logs?

The remaining member states might not have another chance to ascertain her whereabouts if the rumours of the Auctoritas are true, that it is truly impenetrable and cannot be scanned.

A miracle 5 years in the making it might be, but we can take from Empress Jamyl's spectacular return, while CONCORD was disabled, that existential threats to the cluster might be a reality we face, a reality Empress Jamyl might bring about.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#58 - 2015-07-30 15:26:51 UTC
iyammarrok wrote:


And here we go again.

You once again claim that Raish used 'an entosis link' on the titan.
An entosis link WILL NOT ACTIVATE when used against capsuleer piloted vessels.

This has been proven, it is fact.


And titans can't operate in high sec space.

Oh wait...

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#59 - 2015-07-30 16:25:53 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
iyammarrok wrote:


And here we go again.

You once again claim that Raish used 'an entosis link' on the titan.
An entosis link WILL NOT ACTIVATE when used against capsuleer piloted vessels.

This has been proven, it is fact.


And titans can't operate in high sec space.

Oh wait...

My gosh, Mr Blake. You are my favourite poster on these forums :) I hope I am half as witty as you when I grow up.
Will Gauss
TerminalDogma
Lucky Starbase Syndicate
#60 - 2015-08-01 19:33:13 UTC
In response to concerns that were raised following NERC's participation in the fleet to retake Safizon from the Drifters alongside PIE and CVA, I would like to issue the following clarification:

The existential threat designation is a book-keeping one which affects investigative interest and suspicion, and is -not- a declaration of war or shooting hostilities. New Eden Research Coalition is so named for good reason. We are a scientific organization, with the objective of cluster safety above all else, advancement beyond this. No good scientist takes propositions simply on faith, and only temporarily accepts Matshi Raish's designation on faith due to the strangeness of the whole situation. AT this time, NERC will not be opening fire on Amarr Empire assets unless fired upon first. It is also pointed out that the degree and severity of evidence which would be necessary to convert the designation to a declaration would likely see the Empire already in revolt.

There is however, ample evidence for the Drifters being an existential threat to the cluster, which has NERC willing to take up arms against them alongside other entities similarly willing to take up arms agaisnt them, which has NERC in the somewhat awkward position of having the enemy of their enemy being designated an existential threat. NERC will happily fly with PIE and CVA for the purpose of resisting the Drifter threat, and has set both organizations +10 in the absence of direct evidence of either plotting the failure of the cluster.
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