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Is this (newbie) fitted algos any good?

Author
Dibujor Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2015-07-28 09:13:35 UTC
Do Little wrote:
There are a lot of moving part in a fit.

Damage control is one of the best tanking modules in the game. Fit one unless there is a really good reason not to. Get Hull upgrades to level 4 so you can fit DCU 2.
Power diagnostic unit improves shield, capacitor and power grid - very useful module.

Your fit in PYFA shows Adaptive Invulnerability Field 1 which uses more capacitor than the Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field. Change modules and your capacitor will last a lot longer.


Now I'm advancing in my understanding of fittings thanks to all the answers here :D.

What I didn't quite grasp before was that "tiers within tiers" thing. It's not common in other games, there diferently named things usually mean diferent types of powers or enhancements, while " better modules" of the same kind have the same name with a Mk2 or something like that.

So you have Tech 1, Tech 2, etc and then, WITHIN the tech levels you have another tier, and that's the meta (yep, I know Tech 2 is meta 5 and so on, but still). So say the F85 is a better tech one damage control as it's meta 2 and even better are the pseudoelectron containment field and internal force field array (meta 3 and 4) until you get to Damage Control Unit II. Cool

I can get to the F85 atm due to prices skyrocketing from there. So you think is worth it dropping one Damage Drone amplifier to get the Power diagnostic Unit (we're talking Soe arc here). It must be noted that I have Drones @4 (so only 4 drones flying) and Light Drones @4 with no other drone skills learned or queued atm)

Oh man, I read your first post and my eyes skipped the "limited" on the invulnerability. Damn, I bought the wrong one. Well, time to fly again my Velator to Dodixie to sell this and buy the correct one. The limited adds a full minute to my capacitor, from 2:40 to 3:30 according to Pyfa.


Haruchai Khan wrote:
Not in my experience. The posters in NCQ&A are unfailingly helpful. Even better, they give varied answers that make one think, as in this thread.

Just a couple of months in myself, and I'm learning so much from this thread too. Thanks for starting it and for all the answers so far.


That was my impression reading the posts before starting this thread. The answer here are not just "change this for that" but, informing where I have a doubt. As with almost everything in life I don't like the "push this button and then click here" kind of advices. I don't only want to know the "how" but also the "why".
Memphis Baas
#22 - 2015-07-28 10:09:21 UTC
Keep in mind that destroyers aren't really designed for melee-range brawling. A destroyer has the defenses of a frigate (in terms of the size of armor or shields you can put on it), but does NOT have the agility or the small size (signature radius) of a frigate. So as a result, a frigate with an afterburner can achieve a close orbit and reduce 50% - 75% of incoming damage from this "speed tank", whereas a destroyer will take full damage.

It becomes important if you're thinking of increasing your DPS by switching to short-range blasters. Destroyers aren't designed for that. They're designed to overwhelm frigate targets with a full rack of long range guns and drones, but otherwise somewhat glass cannon.

If the Algos doesn't cut it against Dagan, try to use pyfa to see if you can achieve sufficient DPS for his shields with a drone and blasters Tristan frigate, or upgrade to a drone Vexor cruiser (oversized tank to sit and take the punishment, frigate sized weaponry). Basically, if you can't do the fast kill that a destroyer provides, you'll have to try the slow roast with either an agility/speed frigate or a brick cruiser.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-07-28 12:38:26 UTC
I don't really agree with the above.

Destroyers can quite easily get under the guns of most battleships, the difference between 35 and 70 sig radius when comparing that to the sig resolution of medium and larger guns is pretty insignificant.

And they can quite as easily overwhelm frigate targets with short range weapons as they still use small sized weapons and often have tracking bonuses or have the slot layout to make it easier to kill smaller targets.

A tristan with low skills won't even come close to 100 dps, particularly as you will likely be using only 4 t1 drones at this point.

I did dagan with a catalyst with a full load of blasters using antimatter ammo and i literally did nothing except orbit 500 and F1 after I got in range.
Dibujor Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2015-07-28 13:30:29 UTC
Mmmm, I do have the catalyst they give you as reward from the last advanced military mission. I've tried a quick fit with blasters and canibalizing the fit from the algos. So I can try my hand at doing more fittings. Something like this:



[High]

8x Limited Light Ion Blaster I (Antimatter) - Anything more than this chews my capacitor

[Med]

1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner - for get in range
Medium F-S9 Regolith Compact Shield Extender

[Low]

2x Mark I Compact Power Diagnostic System - Gives me power Grid and capacitor and shield recharging
F85 Peripheral Damage System - For damage control

[Rigs]

3x Small Core Defense Field Extender I - Maybe change this for shield hardeners adecuated to
the damage type Dagan does?



That gives me 138 dps (theoretically the same as the algos with rails + drones), stable capacitor and 8.3 EHP. I read he has 12500 hp so it would take time.

I think I'll see when I get there. I've read from other players it is possible to beat him with a t1 frigate (one claims with a Tristan) but probably require players with far more knowledge of the game and skills than me. I guess the "easy" route is going Cruiser or asking for help in local once you get there
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2015-07-28 14:13:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Bastion Arzi
looking at your fit i can make siome suggestions.

i believe the adaptive invuln field I uses more cpu than the limited adaptive invuln. its name may have changed but check it out might save u having to use the cpu rig.

also try to meta the damage control. psuedoelecton field is prolly too expensive for u but one of the other versions may save you fitting room

edit - taking a quick look the f85 peripheral damage control may be the one you want it saves u like 4 cpu

also the limited adaptive invuln is 6 less cpu i think
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#26 - 2015-07-28 14:26:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Do Little
Pricing for meta damage controls is insane - either use the DCU 1 or invest a couple of days training hull upgrades 4 and fit DCU 2

On your PYFA window look for DPS under firepower - you are showing 137 on the screenshot you posted. This is enough to kill Dagan though it could take a while. Look for effective EHP under resistances - you are showing 9.74K, which should also be enough as long as you keep moving.

I would invest in capacitor. Train a couple of levels of afterburner and fuel economy. get capacitor operation to level 4. If you can run your afterburner for 10 minutes you should have no problem speed tanking everything the Arc can throw at you.

For a walkthrough of the Arc: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/The_Blood-Stained_Stars

Edit: looks like you will be tight for CPU - I would drop the DDA and fit a second Power diagnostic - this will give you more cap, more shield and more grid - probably won't need power grid management 4. Use the training time saved to skill another level of Gallente Destroyer - that will give you 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage which will compensate for removing the Drone Damage Amp

2nd Edit: With 5 guns fit, you can also significantly reduce CPU by training a level of Weapon Upgrades. Still think the 2nd PDU makes more sense than a DDA as long as you keep your DPS over 100. You are probably coming to the realization that there are a million different ways to do this - and no "absolutely" right way that everyone will agree on. I'm sure the Gallente purists are thinking this ship should be armor tanked!
Syrilian
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-07-28 14:39:21 UTC
Dibujor Crendraven wrote:
[quote=Do Little]There are a lot of moving part in a fit.



So you have Tech 1, Tech 2, etc and then, WITHIN the tech levels you have another tier, and that's the meta (yep, I know Tech 2 is meta 5 and so on, but still). So say the F85 is a better tech one damage control as it's meta 2 and even better are the pseudoelectron containment field and internal force field array (meta 3 and 4) until you get to Damage Control Unit II. Cool

I can get to the F85 atm due to prices skyrocketing from there. So you think is worth it dropping one Damage Drone amplifier to get the Power diagnostic Unit (we're talking Soe arc here). It must be noted that I have Drones @4 (so only 4 drones flying) and Light Drones @4 with no other drone skills learned or queued atm)

Oh man, I read your first post and my eyes skipped the "limited" on the invulnerability. Damn, I bought the wrong one. Well, time to fly again my Velator to Dodixie to sell this and buy the correct one. The limited adds a full minute to my capacitor, from 2:40 to 3:30 according to Pyfa.



To make things more complicated, you can't always say Tech 2 is better in all situations. Example: The ancillary armor repairer when loaded with nanite paste actually repairs faster than the t2 armor repairer; without paste the t2 armor repairer repairs faster. However in a frigate fight, the fight is usually over before you run out of paste therefore the ancillary is usually better.



Dibujor Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-07-28 16:50:42 UTC
Bastion Arzi wrote:
looking at your fit i can make siome suggestions.

i believe the adaptive invuln field I uses more cpu than the limited adaptive invuln. its name may have changed but check it out might save u having to use the cpu rig.

also try to meta the damage control. psuedoelecton field is prolly too expensive for u but one of the other versions may save you fitting room

edit - taking a quick look the f85 peripheral damage control may be the one you want it saves u like 4 cpu

also the limited adaptive invuln is 6 less cpu i think


Not sure if you're looking to the algos fit or the catalyst. This catalyst is just something I tried to fit "just in case" just for Dagan's mission. But yes, I bought the wrong one the first time, but now I have the limited version, it's lighter on the cpu. Unfortunately it doesn't save me from using the rig atm.

As for meta the damage control... the f85 is the best I can do, and that's what I have. Any other thing gets out of my budget. :D

Do Little wrote:

Pricing for meta damage controls is insane - either use the DCU 1 or invest a couple of days training hull upgrades 4 and fit DCU 2

On your PYFA window look for DPS under firepower - you are showing 137 on the screenshot you posted. This is enough to kill Dagan though it could take a while. Look for effective EHP under resistances - you are showing 9.74K, which should also be enough as long as you keep moving.

I would invest in capacitor. Train a couple of levels of afterburner and fuel economy. get capacitor operation to level 4. If you can run your afterburner for 10 minutes you should have no problem speed tanking everything the Arc can throw at you.


Anything over the f85 enter into the millions range of prices. About the damage, yep both the Catalyst and the Algos fit have the same dps (algos 137 turrets + drones and catalyst 138 just blasters). Catalyst only has 7k EHP though.

I don't know how feasible is training all those skills. Guess when I finish training those I'll be over with the SOE Arc lol. I'm training hull, drones and cap management. Though perhaps training gallente destroyer @2 should be faster and make up for the damage.

Indeed there are millions of ways of doing this it seems. But is fun seeing the alternatives and learning how and why to do it. :D. Have to try your suggestions in Evemon and Pyfa to come up with a plan... up until now I queued mostly thinking on exploration more than pew pew.

Syrilian wrote:

To make things more complicated, you can't always say Tech 2 is better in all situations. Example: The ancillary armor repairer when loaded with nanite paste actually repairs faster than the t2 armor repairer; without paste the t2 armor repairer repairs faster. However in a frigate fight, the fight is usually over before you run out of paste therefore the ancillary is usually better.


Indeed, either I learn or I end up crazy.

I must THANK YOU all for your help and really helpful info.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#29 - 2015-07-28 18:18:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
With regards to the SoE epic arc, your fit should be able to handle the majority of it with no problems, there are 2 missions towards the end that may give you trouble, Chasing Shadows and Our Man Dagan.

If you do find yourself struggling, put a shout out in local for help. You'll either get another newbie like yourself to team up with and perhaps help if they're also running the arc, or an older player who will roll up in a something ridiculous to give you a hand.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Dibujor Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2015-07-28 19:40:01 UTC
Yep, yesterday I parked in Arnon and tonight when I arrive home I'll begin the missions and touch the fitting as I go. I'm enjoying all this theorycrafting though. Pretty good advise here not just for the Soe Arc but leveling and fitting in general. I've understood more with this thread than reading guides and tutorials.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#31 - 2015-07-28 23:13:21 UTC
Dibujor Crendraven wrote:
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
wowzers.

newbro comes in with newbro questions, gets answered with useful, solid information....

FAITH IN NEW EDEN RESTORED!



haha, is that usually not the case?


sometimes, newbros just get trolled.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

Cara Forelli
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#32 - 2015-07-28 23:13:52 UTC
Some more basic info on meta modules I copy/pasted from an old post of mine -

Cara Forelli wrote:

Tech 1 and Tech 2 modules are created by players. There are other mods called "meta" modules or "named" modules which are dropped by npcs and can't be made by players. If you click the "attributes" tab in the info window you can see the "meta number" which gives you a rough idea how effective the module is.

Here is the order:

-Tech 1 (Meta 0)
-Meta 1
-Meta 2
-Meta 3
-Meta 4
-Tech 2 (Meta 5)
-Storyline, Faction, Deadspace, Officer (meta 6 - 14)

For a new player, fitting "meta" mods is very useful. The Meta 1-4 modules only require the skills of the tech 1 variant, but give better performance. Sometimes the meta 4 version is actually slightly better than tech 2. In most cases, the meta modules are also easier to fit with respect to CPU and powergrid so they are sometimes used by players than can use tech 2 variants but have tight fitting requirements.

If you aren't sure which module to buy, select any of them and show info. Then go to the variations tab and click compare to compare the statistics of each. Sort by meta number and first look at the attribute you are interested in (HP for a shield extender for example). Then compare the CPU and powergrid needs and choose the one that best suits your needs.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

Dibujor Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2015-07-29 07:51:03 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:

sometimes, newbros just get trolled.

Sadly that is true in every forum and coment section known to man all over the internet. Though that said some people are just looking for getting trolled if they haven't even bothered to search for the answer to their comments/questions before posting.

Glad this hasn't been my experience. Eve being a big and really old game I guess a lot of you are really tired of new people asking the same questions over and over and over again.

Cara Forelli wrote:

Some more basic info on meta modules I copy/pasted from an old post of mine -
Cara Forelli wrote:

Tech 1 and Tech 2 modules are created by players. There are other mods called "meta" modules or "named" modules which are dropped by npcs and can't be made by players. If you click the "attributes" tab in the info window you can see the "meta number" which gives you a rough idea how effective the module is.

Here is the order:

-Tech 1 (Meta 0)
-Meta 1
-Meta 2
-Meta 3
-Meta 4
-Tech 2 (Meta 5)
-Storyline, Faction, Deadspace, Officer (meta 6 - 14)

For a new player, fitting "meta" mods is very useful. The Meta 1-4 modules only require the skills of the tech 1 variant, but give better performance. Sometimes the meta 4 version is actually slightly better than tech 2. In most cases, the meta modules are also easier to fit with respect to CPU and powergrid so they are sometimes used by players than can use tech 2 variants but have tight fitting requirements.

If you aren't sure which module to buy, select any of them and show info. Then go to the variations tab and click compare to compare the statistics of each. Sort by meta number and first look at the attribute you are interested in (HP for a shield extender for example). Then compare the CPU and powergrid needs and choose the one that best suits your needs.


Thanks for that bit of info. I guess that explains the prices of some of the meta modules. The bit about the variations tab is most useful. I already knew the tab but didn't know you could compare them. I think the difficult part to this is the naming. If you only look at the market (being a new player) at first is difficult to get that for example "Basic Damage Control" "Interior Force Field Array" and "Pseudoelectron Containment Field" are all the "same" module in different "tiers", BDC being the basic version and the others being better meta versions of that.

It was for me at least, accustomed to other "space games" naming conventions where usually the better versions of a weapon or module are just called MkI, MkII, and so on. Pyfa and trying to fit this algos made it easier for me to understand, it "clicked". Sorting by "Module Market Group" and comparing you realize those are the same in better versions. The irony being that you have the same info in the market window inside the game (yeah I've always used the "detailed" version of the market window).

This is an overwhelming game with lots of info everywhere, sometimes getting something out of context helps you to understand it. :)
Cara Forelli
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#34 - 2015-07-29 16:32:16 UTC
Dibujor Crendraven wrote:
I think the difficult part to this is the naming.

I remember being completely overwhelmed by the market at first. Its organization does leave something to be desired. You'll pick it up pretty quickly though once you start to play with fittings.

I guess I should also point out that the meta levels of many of the items are currently being reworked to make the lower meta items more useful. The goal is to have each item serve a different niche rather than just being hands-down better or worse. If you look at the recently reworked microwarpdrives, for example, you'll see one that maximizes speed, one with a lesser capacitor penalty, one that uses less capacitor when cycling, and one with lower fitting costs but lesser speed. Conceivably there are situations where all of these are useful, giving the player more options than just "do I want to pay for meta 4 or not?".

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

Dibujor Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2015-07-29 19:18:00 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
Dibujor Crendraven wrote:
I think the difficult part to this is the naming.

I remember being completely overwhelmed by the market at first. Its organization does leave something to be desired. You'll pick it up pretty quickly though once you start to play with fittings.

I guess I should also point out that the meta levels of many of the items are currently being reworked to make the lower meta items more useful. The goal is to have each item serve a different niche rather than just being hands-down better or worse. If you look at the recently reworked microwarpdrives, for example, you'll see one that maximizes speed, one with a lesser capacitor penalty, one that uses less capacitor when cycling, and one with lower fitting costs but lesser speed. Conceivably there are situations where all of these are useful, giving the player more options than just "do I want to pay for meta 4 or not?".



Of course, as the game isn't complex enough as it is... lol. That opens the path for more tactics though, and even more valid fits.

Organization wise.... well, you can do pretty complex things while other really simple and common things are impossible. Interface design has advanced A LOT and this game is pretty old. Guess it's really difficult if not impossible to change the behaviour of some concepts.
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