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War against escalated play costs

Author
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#81 - 2015-07-22 19:05:59 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Teckos, I agree with you to some extent, hence I used the word attempt.

Where there is a lack of monopoly there will always be someone undercutting others, and cutting their own margin in the process. The day miners get together and start controlling mineral output for profit is the day that hell freezes over, it takes a special kind of organisation to do something as bold as monopolising raw materials, and miners are too self absorbed to do it.



Is it really that, anyone can mine but not everyone can build something. Even if a large group of people got together to try and control mineral prices, they'll just be undercut by the others.
It depends how they go about it, killing every miner that isn't part of your organisation would work to a certain extent, you don't have to control the whole supply, just the vast majority of it. Unfortunately it requires effort, teamwork and numbers; many are unwilling to invest in the first, which leads to a lack of the last two

For an example look to the Gallente ice interdiction campaign that goons ran a while back, while it turned out to be an unsustainable campaign in the long run it certainly had an effect on the price of certain items.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Avvy
Doomheim
#82 - 2015-07-22 19:22:41 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Teckos, I agree with you to some extent, hence I used the word attempt.

Where there is a lack of monopoly there will always be someone undercutting others, and cutting their own margin in the process. The day miners get together and start controlling mineral output for profit is the day that hell freezes over, it takes a special kind of organisation to do something as bold as monopolising raw materials, and miners are too self absorbed to do it.



Is it really that, anyone can mine but not everyone can build something. Even if a large group of people got together to try and control mineral prices, they'll just be undercut by the others.
It depends how they go about it, killing every miner that isn't part of your organisation would work to a certain extent, you don't have to control the whole supply, just the vast majority of it. Unfortunately it requires effort, teamwork and numbers; many are unwilling to invest in the first, which leads to a lack of the last two

For an example look to the Gallente ice interdiction campaign that goons ran a while back, while it turned out to be an unsustainable campaign in the long run it certainly had an effect on the price of certain items.




Don't know that campaign but the fact it was unsustainable doesn't surprise me.

If a group did manage to artificially keep mineral prices high in a region all what would happen is that region would become more attractive to other regions. I just don't see it happening where minerals are concerned, certainly not over a long period of time.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#83 - 2015-07-22 19:39:03 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Teckos, I agree with you to some extent, hence I used the word attempt.

Where there is a lack of monopoly there will always be someone undercutting others, and cutting their own margin in the process. The day miners get together and start controlling mineral output for profit is the day that hell freezes over, it takes a special kind of organisation to do something as bold as monopolising raw materials, and miners are too self absorbed to do it.


I would say that it is that there are two problems (maybe 3):

1. Number of miners.
2. Lack of barriers to entry.

These two things make organizing miners a very difficult task. If we also consider that many miners are not combat oriented players, that makes it even worse. For example, if they were combat oriented they could set up a group and if people refuse to join then they go gank them. But I just don't see miners doing that.
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

It depends how they go about it, killing every miner that isn't part of your organisation would work to a certain extent, you don't have to control the whole supply, just the vast majority of it. Unfortunately it requires effort, teamwork and numbers; many are unwilling to invest in the first, which leads to a lack of the last two

For an example look to the Gallente ice interdiction campaign that goons ran a while back, while it turned out to be an unsustainable campaign in the long run it certainly had an effect on the price of certain items.


Granted, that for somethings you don’t have to control all of the market. But for many minerals it would be problematic (e.g. veldspar, scordite). But still you’d want to control the entire market if you want to set prices.

Consider this historical counter example, Standard Oil, it has often been called a monopoly, but Standard never had 100% control of the oil business. And Standard did not behave as a monopolist. During the years Standard existed the price of kerosene actually dropped. And unlike many monopolies Standard had very low costs and was quite innovative. For example, where other refineries would dump gasoline in rivers, Standard figured out a way to use it to run their machinery and thereby lower costs. They also took what was considered a useless by-product and marketed it to people….Vaseline. While Standard screwed over the railroads by demanding lucrative shipping rates and even kick-backs which is what helped them take over their competition…they were a surprisingly bad monopoly in terms of raising prices and reducing output. Probably because they never had 100% control of the market…and of course, there was the discovery of oil elsewhere on the continental US (Texas, California, etc.) which dealt Standard a serious blow in terms of the refining business.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Ciba Lexlulu
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#84 - 2015-07-23 00:41:31 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
T1 cruisers are worthless , like faction ones.
Lack of T2 resist makes them easy targets.
Like stated before - if flying logistic ship was fun thing to do all people in fleet would fly only them.


Not sure we are playing the same game bud.. Unless you are trolling.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#85 - 2015-07-23 05:07:43 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
T1 cruisers are worthless , like faction ones.
Lack of T2 resist makes them easy targets.
Like stated before - if flying logistic ship was fun thing to do all people in fleet would fly only them.


T1 cruisers are worthless: No.

Faction cruisers are worthless: No.

The lack of T2 resists makes them easy targets: It also makes them cheap, and weren't you complaining about the price of doctrine ships?

If logistics were fun everyone would fly them: No, because you still need dps. And logistics is, IMO, more of a challenge. Nobody tells you who to rep, you have to watch broadcasts, lock up people and try to spread your reps...keeping an eye on who is catching reps and who isn't. Yeah you might not get KMs, but...more to the game and KMs.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Anthar Thebess
#86 - 2015-07-23 08:09:29 UTC
I am not complaining about the price of T2 and faction ships.
I only pointed out that CCP shifted ships "worth to fly" from battle cruisers and battleships to T2 cruisers and faction battleships.

Some people pointed that i am poor , well i am.
I am typical nullsec poor guy that after years of living in nullsec have 4-6bil/month flowing into the wallet ( and i know that is not much , but it is enough to me)

Problem is that i got to this point by crating myself big collection of high skilled characters ( thanks to character bazaar) - this took time , and new guys who come to this game don't want to spend years , they want to have fun now.

What was wrong in the battle cruiser class ?
That is was cheep T1 ship doctrine , not using moongoo in production?
New guys could pretty fast get into them and have fun with others - when the battle cruisers where most commonly used ships in the game we had 35-40k on line , and national channels where full of new people.

TL;DR:
- CCP actions put us in position, that good ships are expensive ( good ships = compared to old battlecruiser capabilities )
- people who are affected the most - are new players - they have low income , are unaware of many things and have to pay more and more for new ships
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#87 - 2015-07-23 09:18:52 UTC
Been avoiding this thread, after hovering over the preview. But now that I read some of it, all I have to say is
what?

& #30 ftw

that is all.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

davet517
Raata Invicti
#88 - 2015-07-23 11:31:04 UTC  |  Edited by: davet517
Forgetaboutit. Eve is an old game. Senior Citizen old, as MMOs go. PvP in Eve looks a lot like PvP did in the "old age" of EQ1 PvP. Not really possible for newbies to compete with old timers, and a good percentage of the "newbies" that you meet are really alts created by old timers that have been "twinked", (expensive fits, booster alts, e-war alts) in order to kill any actual newbies who happen to fly by. They're the equivalent of a de-leveled rogue with an epic weapon named "N00bkill3r" hanging out in a level 12 area.

That's the way it is trying to be a new player in an old game. Everybody (except you) knows every trick in the book. Sorry.

You can still have fun as a new player in an old game. You just have to pick your spots, and fly under the radar. Even in an old game, some people still suck, so there are still targets out there for you if you can avoid notice. You need to avoid notice, though. If you, say, put together a large newbie alliance and try to take a 0.0 region, you're going to have a bad time. You french-fried when you should have pizzaed.

You can still play Eve as a new player. You just have to be crafty, until you become an older player, and/or make some powerful friends.

To address the OP directly, CCPs track record when it comes to intervening in the meta is really, really, not great. You are, in effect, praying to Loki, the God of Mischief. Who knows what you'll get? The way to handle it is the way that it is being handled. The players themselves are stepping up and giving newer players the hand-up that they need. Orgs like Karma Fleet, and Horde, and maybe an older and a little wiser Brave Newbies, giving a new bro a hand up and a proving ground for those who are good enough to advance, and the countless tutorial creators, bloggers, and tool creators out there that give a new bro a clue in a game that can be pretty confusing.
Lady Areola Fappington
#89 - 2015-07-23 12:14:42 UTC
The "problem" with Eve has way more to do with information needed to play, than anything else. The reason why a total newb is useless...they're a total newb. They don't yet understand how to play Eve. Stuff like not mixing guns, the different tank styles, etc.

It's not something you "fix" with game mechanics. Hand a newbie 40M SP, 2Bil ISK, and no more information, and they'll go down in (very expensive) balls of flame. We see it CONSTANTLY with ALODS. Teach a newbie fitting basics, tackle, range control, and how to set up an overview, and you'll have a leep PVP slayer within a week.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#90 - 2015-07-23 12:46:46 UTC
davet517 wrote:
Forgetaboutit. Eve is an old game. Senior Citizen old, as MMOs go. PvP in Eve looks a lot like PvP did in the "old age" of EQ1 PvP.
And what new technology do you speak of that allows huge blob warfare on a single shard from wherever you are physically located in the world? Or should I say other than EVE?

Even in the heyday of EQ1 we couldn't get a few hundred people in a zone w/o crashing it. Heck it'd crash the zone with 100 people in it and there were always zones going down. A modern game, say GW2, doesn't work any differently, it's just scripted combat with a few costly AOE's, same thing. Hit the population limit and the zone fragments into another instance. That's progress?

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
#91 - 2015-07-23 13:11:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
This is just a lot of hand wringing over a hypothetical problem that a new player is extremely unlikely to have.

So let's focus on the point raised, it's not that T2 is expensive, or that no one flies T1 anymore, it's that this hypothetical person is in a specific group that demands he flies T2s or he be kicked.

But, any group that demands you bring a T2 and T3 and does not have any sort of SRP (hence, leaving you only the option to grind back the ship) will also demand in their recruitment process that you be self sufficient and have some proof or explanation of how. If you are too new to replace ships, or just don't want to, you wouldn't be recruited in the first place.

Maybe there's a scrub group out there that has zero recruiting standards or anything to offer but still think they can roll deep in bling doctrines. Once the unaware newbie gets in, he finds they whip people into doctrines they can't afford, in which case he was really unlucky and probably just needs to get out of there ASAP. (Who exactly are they anyway, name and shame, sounds like a bunch of shiny killmails are waiting to be harvested somewhere...)
Jenshae Chiroptera
#92 - 2015-07-23 13:39:19 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
... it's that this hypothetical person is in a specific group that demands he flies T2s or he be kicked.
It is beyond that.
One example:
Previously, a High Sec corp that has relatively new members and had a war declared on them could get into battlecruisers and give a good fight back. The effectiveness of that possibility is severly reduced currently.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Keno Skir
#93 - 2015-07-23 15:07:15 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Like stated before - if flying logistic ship was fun thing to do all people in fleet would fly only them.


You've said that twice and were not entirely correct both times imho. I think logistics is rare more because it's a different set of skills to those the average new combat pilot already has SP invested in. Also pretty much every new player wants killmails and just to feel like a big man (short man syndrome kinda). You're not going to get final blow on a killmail in a Logi, so new players aren't so interested.

I'm sure fun comes into it, but your point is a little narrow to cover the array of reasons that contribute to a demographic decision.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#94 - 2015-07-23 16:51:35 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
... it's that this hypothetical person is in a specific group that demands he flies T2s or he be kicked.
It is beyond that.
One example:
Previously, a High Sec corp that has relatively new members and had a war declared on them could get into battlecruisers and give a good fight back. The effectiveness of that possibility is severly reduced currently.


That's an example that's super dependent on the specific parties involved. The effectiveness of that has always been highly dependent on the competence of both the leadership and membership of the defender and of the aggressor. My first experience of highsec pvp was as the a defender in that exact situation flying a brutix and being successful.

I'm legitimately curious as to why you think this was the case previously but not now. I kind of agree, but I doubt for the same reasons.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#95 - 2015-07-23 17:01:59 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
... I'm legitimately curious as to why ...
Power creep! Twisted

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#96 - 2015-07-23 17:38:41 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
... I'm legitimately curious as to why ...
Power creep! Twisted

I disagree I think it's because of reverse power creep.
davet517
Raata Invicti
#97 - 2015-07-23 18:12:20 UTC  |  Edited by: davet517
Webvan wrote:
[quote=davet517]
Even in the heyday of EQ1 we couldn't get a few hundred people in a zone w/o crashing it. Heck it'd crash the zone with 100 people in it and there were always zones going down. A modern game, say GW2, doesn't work any differently, it's just scripted combat with a few costly AOE's, same thing. Hit the population limit and the zone fragments into another instance. That's progress?


Trying to imagine TIDI on an EQ1 raid. My brain just refuses to go there.

I wasn't talking about the technology, I was talking about the in-game situation that a new player finds when joining. It's not something that's going to be fixed by trying to return us to the golden age of Draeks Online. If you're a new player, you just just have to try to dodge far more powerful old players and find people whose butt you can kick while avoiding getting squashed like a bug.

Old game. Just the way it is. If CCP tries to fix it, there's a better than average chance they'll just F it up further. The old timers consistently stay one step ahead of whatever they try to do.
Ciba Lexlulu
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#98 - 2015-07-24 02:27:30 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:

I only pointed out that CCP shifted ships "worth to fly" from battle cruisers and battleships to T2 cruisers and faction battleships.

Some people pointed that i am poor , well i am.
I am typical nullsec poor guy that after years of living in nullsec have 4-6bil/month flowing into the wallet ( and i know that is not much , but it is enough to me)



This is the real reason you are complaining.

You are not complaining because T1 cruiser is weak vs T2. You are complaining about shift of the current Meta in nullsec.

Adapt. Move out of nullsec.

In lowsec, you do not need wtfomg OP T2 ship (read: basically just Ishtar) to have fun (read: allowed by FC to join fleet). You can roam solo or small gang to create your own content in T1 frigs and cruisers.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#99 - 2015-07-24 02:45:20 UTC
4-6 BILLION a month is poor? Spare a billion a month for a pennyless pilot then please?
You get SRP and 4-6 Billion per month. And you consider that poor? wtf!