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PLEX Idea - Demurrage Currency

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Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#61 - 2015-07-20 07:54:27 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

"as per CCP" - CCP already opened that can of worms, they allow you to pay for game time and select goods, with an in game item, which can only be put into the game by being purchased with real world dollars. Once in-game that item can be traded for "real world" services.

Did you not read the post you responded to or are you saying it is all a lie - CCP don't accept plex as payment, they didn't give a "monetary value" of the donated plex to the charities.

The primary things helping to keep plex prices high - The cost in "real world value" of a plex - Whether that cost be time spent "earning" it in game, or $$$$ spent buying it from CCP.

Would you buy plex from CCP if it was being traded for 100 million isk on the in-game market?

If plex were being sold at 50% off, how many do you think CCP would sell? - Would flooding the in-game market with 50% off plex have any affect on its "real world value". Yes it would, by reducing CCP's earnings from plex sales - it has a real world value.

The price plex is brought and sold for IS its "real world value" and is initially set by CCP as real world income.

Can Plex be used to purchase something you can use outside of New Eden, giving it a real world value - Yes it can
You can quite easily work out the "real world value" of a plex ( as set by CCP) - Go to the fanfest booking site, or is Fanfest an in game item?


NB; 1 Plex is more valuable in "real world value" to me than it is to a resident of the US.
1 Plex for a US resident cost $19.95
1 Plex for an AU resident currently costs $27.06


No they did not. PLEX have no real world value...if they did you could call the police if they get destroyed in a Gank. No...really.

Seriously ? You believe the ability to call police is a valid comment to twist the facts?
Try refuting the facts with facts - Show me how plex has no real $ value, when the company that sells them places a real dollar value on them.


I wonder why, after B-R there was a cost in plex = $ associated with the battle, when plex has no $ value? What was it, 350k USD worth of ships destroyed, based on the cost of plex to replace them?
But your saying plex has no real world value in monetary terms so how did they reach that figure?


Yes, seriously. That is why they say that not only do in game items have no real world value, but that you don't own them. You are technically "renting" them.

That people use PLEX as a sort of de facto exchange rate does not change this. It is also often done to give non-Eve players a scope of the massive destruction...i.e. the shock value when somebody says, "That battle resulted in almost $250,000 destroyed," it sounds much more shocking to a non-Eve player than saying 85 titans died. I have done this at work. If I say, 85 titans died they go, "Okay, so?"* When I say, "Those 85 titans have a real world equivalent of $250,000!!" Then they say, "Really, that's impressive."

Let me explain....

Early on in my Eve career I was wondering why RMT and botting was not allowed. Yes, there is the issue with runaway inflation. But a lawyer also gave the following reasons,

1. If in game assets have real value, then the theft of the assests could result in one or more players calling the police (yes really).
2. If ISK has real world value via allowing RMT, then CCP could be seen as a bank, and have to conform to various banking laws.
3. If CCP goes bankrupt we could all be considered creditors, especially those people who have say 1 trillion in in game ISK and assets, which even with today's bloated PLEX prices would be just under $20,000.

So, not only for game balance (the run away inflation issue) but these other reasons the EULA basically says,

1. You don't own the stuff your characters or the stuff they acquire, you are effectively renting them, in fact you own nothing associated with your account, corporation, alliance, etc. If you created, a corp or an alliance logo...good chance CCP owns that too.
2. Those stuffs, have no real world value.

*Out of about 20 people in my group I have exactly 1 person who knew what a "big deal" losing a titan was and he is a complete and total nerd like we are.

Actually if CCP were to go broke tomorrow anyone in possession of plex that has not been redeemed would be a creditor. The same way anyone who had paid in advance for services provided by CCP would be.
Plex, unlike isk, has a real dollar value, placed on it by CCP. CCP use this dollar Plex = X to provide services to players; 1 plex = 30 days of game time - X amount of plex will get you a ticket to fanfest.

Your doing what many do and presuming plex = isk, when it really doesn't - It represents in-game and limited out of game commodities as provided by CCP, who created their own currency (Plex) to afford its use in such ways.

Plex, unlike isk, allows you to play Eve. You can't activate 30 days of game time with 1 billion isk, why not? It needs to be converted to plex so it has a dollar value to CCP.

If CCP stopped allowing plex as game time, you could justifiably say Plex has no $ value. Whilst ever you can pay for game time and other CCP related things with Plex, it will have a dollar value.
As a commodity,1 plex (which CCP value at $19.95 USD) is worth exactly $14.95 USD ~ 30 days game time.

Or, in really simple terms - If plex did not exist, how would you play Eve??

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Anthar Thebess
#62 - 2015-07-20 09:15:05 UTC
The issue in plex is that it is best investment.
Every thing in game ( especially base currency ) constantly loosing its value.
People are just buying Plexes to not lose.
Simple example.

When i started to play :
- Plex <300mil
- BS hull was around 60mil , and people where flying battle cruisers , you could loose 10 of them and close your total lose in 100mil

Now :
- Plex ~1bil
- Bs Hull around 180mil , people are flying T2/T3 ships/Faction Battleships , loosing 1 is from 150 to 400mil

For me the problem is not the PLEX price for new people, but basic play costs.
If you come to play EVE , and assume that you will be plexing your accounts - thats just stupid, especially now.
But when you come to a game and want to fly basic fleet/roam ship and it cost you 5hours of farming - then there is something broken in basic concepts, as ships in eve die , and die , and simply die, you are not getting new hull, and all the fitting , the only thing you are getting is a noobship.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
#63 - 2015-07-20 09:19:06 UTC
I'm sort of on the fence between you two guys at this stage.

I am adamant that PLEX can be said to have a real world value, but legally speaking it does not, as Teckos says, for legal reasons ingame assets aren't ours and specifically are said to not have any "real world value".

But I would say this is no different to those vouchers/coupons you can get that have "No cash value."

Legally speaking they are absolutely irredeemable against currency. For legal reasons this is printed on the McDonalds vouchers I see on the back of bus tickets.

However, these things are redeemable against a cost which you would otherwise incur, so long as you wish to incur it. I pay less, I get a free drink, I am able to redeem my vouchers against going to a zoo with my family (Tesco Clubcard is this example for anyone who doesn't have this kind of system locally).

So for me to be able to look at my 1000 points on whatever system in the real world gives them to me and say "They have no real world value." is, in my mind, both true and false simultaneously - and this is where you guys are opposing each other. Legally speaking my points are not currency, but they can be directly used to save me currency, or, as I have seen happen, be sold to another party at a reduced rate so they can save themselves currency.

They have a convenience value OF a real world value. If I gave you a piece of paper which said "IOU £100" you might argue is has no real value, but if I gave you a legitimate voucher for £100 any good or service in existence in the real world, as far as most people would be concerned, it has value because it replaces £100 in their pocket with the voucher.

In Eve that's the point, PLEX is, as far as I can see, like a voucher which can be redeemed against anything ingame (Traded for ISK, ISK traded for whatever), select out of game goods or services (Fanfest, Eve Vegas (Last year but not this year I think?) charity etc) but was paid for in a "real world currency".

Personal Standings Services - Free 3rd Party & Collateral Holding Service - 7+ Day Old Corps for Highsec POS Sales
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2015-07-20 14:41:41 UTC
Just pay your account and don´t play to pay your subscription.

-1
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#65 - 2015-07-20 17:22:45 UTC
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
I'm sort of on the fence between you two guys at this stage.

I am adamant that PLEX can be said to have a real world value, but legally speaking it does not, as Teckos says, for legal reasons ingame assets aren't ours and specifically are said to not have any "real world value".

But I would say this is no different to those vouchers/coupons you can get that have "No cash value."

Legally speaking they are absolutely irredeemable against currency. For legal reasons this is printed on the McDonalds vouchers I see on the back of bus tickets.

However, these things are redeemable against a cost which you would otherwise incur, so long as you wish to incur it. I pay less, I get a free drink, I am able to redeem my vouchers against going to a zoo with my family (Tesco Clubcard is this example for anyone who doesn't have this kind of system locally).

So for me to be able to look at my 1000 points on whatever system in the real world gives them to me and say "They have no real world value." is, in my mind, both true and false simultaneously - and this is where you guys are opposing each other. Legally speaking my points are not currency, but they can be directly used to save me currency, or, as I have seen happen, be sold to another party at a reduced rate so they can save themselves currency.

They have a convenience value OF a real world value. If I gave you a piece of paper which said "IOU £100" you might argue is has no real value, but if I gave you a legitimate voucher for £100 any good or service in existence in the real world, as far as most people would be concerned, it has value because it replaces £100 in their pocket with the voucher.

In Eve that's the point, PLEX is, as far as I can see, like a voucher which can be redeemed against anything ingame (Traded for ISK, ISK traded for whatever), select out of game goods or services (Fanfest, Eve Vegas (Last year but not this year I think?) charity etc) but was paid for in a "real world currency".


Here is another point to consider...taxes. If your in game assets and currency (including PLEX) have real world value and are appreciating...various tax agencies might want to have a word or two with you. And trust me some tax agencies are just that picky (e.g., California will charge property taxes on ships docked in its harbors no matter how short the stay, if your cargo ship is there for an hour, they will be sending you a pro-rated property tax bill for that hour).

As for things like various points with say credit cards, the thing is you cannot use them as currency. You can't take various vouchers and start treating them like money. Not sure which law enforcement agency will come after you (here in the U.S. maybe the local cops, maybe the Secret Service--they handle things like counterfeit money as well as protecting the President), but pretty sure somebody will. After all, the point of fiat money is that the government says it has value, if other people start popping up with their own fiat money that may undermine the faith in the government’s currency. Undermine that faith enough and you’ll have a currency crisis which is not fun at all.

So while they are often perceived as having value, they are not currencies. Similarly with PLEX both in and out of game. They are not currency in the game. They are not currency out of the game. And out of game their legal standing is quite clear. Of course, if you feel it has value to you or even if most players feel that way, its fine, but doesn’t change the fact that legal they have no value (once they are turned into an in-game item).

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2015-07-20 18:01:42 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
The issue in plex is that it is best investment.
Every thing in game ( especially base currency ) constantly loosing its value.
People are just buying Plexes to not lose.
Simple example.

When i started to play :
- Plex <300mil
- BS hull was around 60mil , and people where flying battle cruisers , you could loose 10 of them and close your total lose in 100mil

Now :
- Plex ~1bil
- Bs Hull around 180mil , people are flying T2/T3 ships/Faction Battleships , loosing 1 is from 150 to 400mil

For me the problem is not the PLEX price for new people, but basic play costs.
If you come to play EVE , and assume that you will be plexing your accounts - thats just stupid, especially now.
But when you come to a game and want to fly basic fleet/roam ship and it cost you 5hours of farming - then there is something broken in basic concepts, as ships in eve die , and die , and simply die, you are not getting new hull, and all the fitting , the only thing you are getting is a noobship.


As I noted, inflation in the game is fairly minimal from what I can see, aside from the PLEX market. My guess is that it has always been 5 hours of farming to get that Ship™. In fact, in looking at the price history of the hyperion it was pretty stable except in 2012, when it saw a considerable rise in price. But I'm thinking that was due to the change in rogue drones (they used to drop alloys that could be refined into minerals). With the change over to bounties, the removal of alloys, the cost of minerals increased leading to an increased cost of all goods. Oh, and the change to mission loot drops as well. However, since that change the price of a hyperion has been pretty flat since April 2012.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#67 - 2015-07-20 18:08:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Teckos Pech wrote:
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
I'm sort of on the fence between you two guys at this stage.

I am adamant that PLEX can be said to have a real world value, but legally speaking it does not, as Teckos says, for legal reasons ingame assets aren't ours and specifically are said to not have any "real world value".

But I would say this is no different to those vouchers/coupons you can get that have "No cash value."

Legally speaking they are absolutely irredeemable against currency. For legal reasons this is printed on the McDonalds vouchers I see on the back of bus tickets.

However, these things are redeemable against a cost which you would otherwise incur, so long as you wish to incur it. I pay less, I get a free drink, I am able to redeem my vouchers against going to a zoo with my family (Tesco Clubcard is this example for anyone who doesn't have this kind of system locally).

So for me to be able to look at my 1000 points on whatever system in the real world gives them to me and say "They have no real world value." is, in my mind, both true and false simultaneously - and this is where you guys are opposing each other. Legally speaking my points are not currency, but they can be directly used to save me currency, or, as I have seen happen, be sold to another party at a reduced rate so they can save themselves currency.

They have a convenience value OF a real world value. If I gave you a piece of paper which said "IOU £100" you might argue is has no real value, but if I gave you a legitimate voucher for £100 any good or service in existence in the real world, as far as most people would be concerned, it has value because it replaces £100 in their pocket with the voucher.

In Eve that's the point, PLEX is, as far as I can see, like a voucher which can be redeemed against anything ingame (Traded for ISK, ISK traded for whatever), select out of game goods or services (Fanfest, Eve Vegas (Last year but not this year I think?) charity etc) but was paid for in a "real world currency".


Here is another point to consider...taxes. If your in game assets and currency (including PLEX) have real world value and are appreciating...various tax agencies might want to have a word or two with you. And trust me some tax agencies are just that picky (e.g., California will charge property taxes on ships docked in its harbors no matter how short the stay, if your cargo ship is there for an hour, they will be sending you a pro-rated property tax bill for that hour).

As for things like various points with say credit cards, the thing is you cannot use them as currency. You can't take various vouchers and start treating them like money. Not sure which law enforcement agency will come after you (here in the U.S. maybe the local cops, maybe the Secret Service--they handle things like counterfeit money as well as protecting the President), but pretty sure somebody will. After all, the point of fiat money is that the government says it has value, if other people start popping up with their own fiat money that may undermine the faith in the government’s currency. Undermine that faith enough and you’ll have a currency crisis which is not fun at all.

So while they are often perceived as having value, they are not currencies. Similarly with PLEX both in and out of game. They are not currency in the game. They are not currency out of the game. And out of game their legal standing is quite clear. Of course, if you feel it has value to you or even if most players feel that way, its fine, but doesn’t change the fact that legal they have no value (once they are turned into an in-game item).


Sorry but they do have value in-game, they are worth 30 days of game play which has a value of $14.95 USD. They can also be exchanged for out of game items provided by CCP - But we've been all through this, you just don't want to admit, your wrong.

Oh and just to make really sure - Nothing has value until someone says it is worth something - BITCOINS. Can't see them, can't hold them but you can certainly buy things with them.
An item doesn't have to be currency to hold value - Your car has value but is not currency, same as a loaf of bread. Difference is, Plex is used as a currency because it is redeemable for services.

NB; I'll be sure and think of you especially, on my next trip to Fiji or Bali, paid for with flybuys points. Pretty sure the companies who support flybuys would disagree with you over their value and legality.


(I wonder how food stamps (that is what people who can't afford food are given to go shopping with isn't it?) would fit into your "vouchers have no value" "the police will come for you" ideas. What about gift vouchers, is walmart or whatever it is called breaking some law by selling pieces of paper, called vouchers and allowing them to be redeemed for goods?

*Plex re-sellers, like CCP have to pay tax on income derived from selling PLEX.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Marsha Mallow
#68 - 2015-07-20 18:28:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsha Mallow
Teckos Pech wrote:
So while they are often perceived as having value, they are not currencies. Similarly with PLEX both in and out of game. They are not currency in the game. They are not currency out of the game. And out of game their legal standing is quite clear. Of course, if you feel it has value to you or even if most players feel that way, its fine, but doesn’t change the fact that legal they have no value (once they are turned into an in-game item).

Plex are a promissory note or IOU for gametime and a liability for CCP. ISK is a virtual currency in a fantasy setting which the issuer is under no obligation to honour and which has no intrinsic value. Whilst ISK value appears to be set by players dictating ingame supply and demand it's regulated by CCP’s control over faucets & sinks. Plex prices also have real $ boundaries defined by CCP who set the baseprice players or authorised resellers pay. Both can be categorised broadly as 'money' because they represent mediums of exchange, units of account and stores of value. The promissory value of a Plex by the issuer is fixed (30 days gametime). If a fiat currency existed in EvE it'd be Plex, not ISK, if you accept that fiat currencies are debt currencies. You might take that a step further and argue that ISK is actually a credit currency because it’s digital, but that’s a bit of a stretch in a gaming environment. If you treat Plex as a commodity or commodity-backed currency there's still an expectation that the attached debt will remain fixed (30 days gametime) and can be redeemed in full.

You can try to make the argument that once a player purchases Plex with $ they are ‘renting’ access to digital items which remain the property of CCP. That is how the EULA and TOS refer to these exchanges. But unused Plex are recorded on CCP's financial statements as a liability, which technically makes people in possession of Plex creditors of CCP games. In the event of a dispute over these conflicting definitions creditors might win. EULAs aren't internationally recognised or enforced to the degree that consumer rights and trading regulations are. This type of transaction has the whiff of a financial agreement, and selling these in an unregulated environment without a contract is increasingly risky.

That’s all slightly off topic because the discussion here is about the practice of hoarding, reselling and the speculation of people leveraging their ingame wealth to intervene in the Plex market. It’s colloquially known as ‘gouging’ for a reason, and there are real-life comparisons which can be made with certain types of commodity being restricted from over-trading. It might be better to refer to this as the ‘gametime market’ for the purposes of this topic. The proposal here isn’t that CCP should set a specific ingame value for gametime and then enforce it (although Blizzard do, so it’s not an outlandish suggestion). The transaction between the Plex buyer and CCP is irrelevant. This proposal is to introduce limits upon the degree to which players are able to intervene in the gametime market as 3rd party speculators. The ingame Plex market is relatively young and the mass involvement of players (and dramatic Plex increases) in it appears to have spiked following the decline in the use of GTCs in favour of ingame Plex. The original 30/60/90 day GTC market was mostly direct trades between players buying and selling (there’s still a Timecode Bazaar forum in sell orders) with a minority of speculators who had to be prepared to wait significantly longer to profit from investments.

Making Plex tradable only once or limiting the number of times they can be sold would benefit CCP from a reporting point of view because they would be able to recognise the profit on them faster and reduce their liabilities. Allowing gametime tokens to degrade would breach the fixed debt value of gametime, which is a problem. Placing a restriction upon the method of exchange wouldn’t necessarily mean that sellers acquire less ISK for their $ when they come to sell them ingame. It would restrict third parties from profiting on the transaction and it might slow down Plex inflation. Slowing down Plex inflation benefits CCP as well as ingame Plex buyers because it protects their revenue via direct sales (if this time next year a buyer can buy a Plex and expect to sell it for two billion ISK, their Plex revenue will drop).

I have a few more things to add but I might try break the posts up or it'll be an even bigger wall of text. Some interesting points made so far though. I still think this one would be better in MD than F&I.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#69 - 2015-07-20 18:30:13 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
I'm sort of on the fence between you two guys at this stage.

I am adamant that PLEX can be said to have a real world value, but legally speaking it does not, as Teckos says, for legal reasons ingame assets aren't ours and specifically are said to not have any "real world value".

But I would say this is no different to those vouchers/coupons you can get that have "No cash value."

Legally speaking they are absolutely irredeemable against currency. For legal reasons this is printed on the McDonalds vouchers I see on the back of bus tickets.

However, these things are redeemable against a cost which you would otherwise incur, so long as you wish to incur it. I pay less, I get a free drink, I am able to redeem my vouchers against going to a zoo with my family (Tesco Clubcard is this example for anyone who doesn't have this kind of system locally).

So for me to be able to look at my 1000 points on whatever system in the real world gives them to me and say "They have no real world value." is, in my mind, both true and false simultaneously - and this is where you guys are opposing each other. Legally speaking my points are not currency, but they can be directly used to save me currency, or, as I have seen happen, be sold to another party at a reduced rate so they can save themselves currency.

They have a convenience value OF a real world value. If I gave you a piece of paper which said "IOU £100" you might argue is has no real value, but if I gave you a legitimate voucher for £100 any good or service in existence in the real world, as far as most people would be concerned, it has value because it replaces £100 in their pocket with the voucher.

In Eve that's the point, PLEX is, as far as I can see, like a voucher which can be redeemed against anything ingame (Traded for ISK, ISK traded for whatever), select out of game goods or services (Fanfest, Eve Vegas (Last year but not this year I think?) charity etc) but was paid for in a "real world currency".


Here is another point to consider...taxes. If your in game assets and currency (including PLEX) have real world value and are appreciating...various tax agencies might want to have a word or two with you. And trust me some tax agencies are just that picky (e.g., California will charge property taxes on ships docked in its harbors no matter how short the stay, if your cargo ship is there for an hour, they will be sending you a pro-rated property tax bill for that hour).

As for things like various points with say credit cards, the thing is you cannot use them as currency. You can't take various vouchers and start treating them like money. Not sure which law enforcement agency will come after you (here in the U.S. maybe the local cops, maybe the Secret Service--they handle things like counterfeit money as well as protecting the President), but pretty sure somebody will. After all, the point of fiat money is that the government says it has value, if other people start popping up with their own fiat money that may undermine the faith in the government’s currency. Undermine that faith enough and you’ll have a currency crisis which is not fun at all.

So while they are often perceived as having value, they are not currencies. Similarly with PLEX both in and out of game. They are not currency in the game. They are not currency out of the game. And out of game their legal standing is quite clear. Of course, if you feel it has value to you or even if most players feel that way, its fine, but doesn’t change the fact that legal they have no value (once they are turned into an in-game item).


Sorry but they do have value in-game, they are worth 30 days of game play which has a value of $14.95 USD. They can also be exchanged for out of game items provided by CCP - But we've been all through this, you just don't want to admit, your wrong.

Oh and just to make really sure - Nothing has value until someone says it is worth something - BITCOINS. Can't see them, can't hold them but you can certainly buy things with them.
An item doesn't have to be currency to hold value - Your car has value but is not currency, same as a loaf of bread. Difference is, Plex is used as a currency because it is redeemable for services.

NB; I'll be sure and think of you especially, on my next trip to Fiji or Bali, paid for with flybuys points. Pretty sure the companies who support flybuys would disagree with you over their value and legality.


(I wonder how food stamps (that is what people who can't afford food are given to go shopping with isn't it?) would fit into your "vouchers have no value" "the police will come for you" ideas. What about gift vouchers, is walmart or whatever it is called breaking some law by selling pieces of paper, called vouchers and allowing them to be redeemed for goods?

*Plex re-sellers, like CCP have to pay tax on income derived from selling PLEX.


I never said PLEX don't have value in game. Just that they are not currencies and that they have no real world value.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
#70 - 2015-07-20 18:50:28 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


I never said PLEX don't have value in game. Just that they are not currencies and that they have no real world value.


I'll help take ownership of this quote, I did in my OP, which was obviously not particularly well worded, state that PLEX and anything else act as a currency inside Eve. Just in case anyone is reading along not knowing where he got that statement from, I've already admitted I was probably incorrect and at the very least wrote it poorly.

Personal Standings Services - Free 3rd Party & Collateral Holding Service - 7+ Day Old Corps for Highsec POS Sales
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#71 - 2015-07-20 18:53:18 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
So while they are often perceived as having value, they are not currencies. Similarly with PLEX both in and out of game. They are not currency in the game. They are not currency out of the game. And out of game their legal standing is quite clear. Of course, if you feel it has value to you or even if most players feel that way, its fine, but doesn’t change the fact that legal they have no value (once they are turned into an in-game item).

Plex are a promissory note or IOU for gametime and a liability for CCP. ISK is a virtual currency in a fantasy setting which the issuer is under no obligation to honour and which has no intrinsic value. Whilst ISK value appears to be set by players dictating ingame supply and demand it's regulated by CCP’s control over faucets & sinks. Plex prices also have real $ boundaries defined by CCP who set the baseprice players or authorised resellers pay. Both can be categorised broadly as 'money' because they represent mediums of exchange, units of account and stores of value. The promissory value of a Plex by the issuer is fixed (30 days gametime). If a fiat currency existed in EvE it'd be Plex, not ISK, if you accept that fiat currencies are debt currencies. You might take that a step further and argue that ISK is actually a credit currency because it’s digital, but that’s a bit of a stretch in a gaming environment. If you treat Plex as a commodity or commodity-backed currency there's still an expectation that the attached debt will remain fixed (30 days gametime) and can be redeemed in full.

You can try to make the argument that once a player purchases Plex with $ they are ‘renting’ access to digital items which remain the property of CCP. That is how the EULA and TOS refer to these exchanges. But unused Plex are recorded on CCP's financial statements as a liability, which technically makes people in possession of Plex creditors of CCP games. In the event of a dispute over these conflicting definitions creditors might win. EULAs aren't internationally recognised or enforced to the degree that consumer rights and trading regulations are. This type of transaction has the whiff of a financial agreement, and selling these in an unregulated environment without a contract is increasingly risky.

That’s all slightly off topic because the discussion here is about the practice of hoarding, reselling and the speculation of people leveraging their ingame wealth to intervene in the Plex market. It’s colloquially known as ‘gouging’ for a reason, and there are real-life comparisons which can be made with certain types of commodity being restricted from over-trading. It might be better to refer to this as the ‘gametime market’ for the purposes of this topic. The proposal here isn’t that CCP should set a specific ingame value for gametime and then enforce it (although Blizzard do, so it’s not an outlandish suggestion). The transaction between the Plex buyer and CCP is irrelevant. This proposal is to introduce limits upon the degree to which players are able to intervene in the gametime market as 3rd party speculators. The ingame Plex market is relatively young and the mass involvement of players (and dramatic Plex increases) in it appears to have spiked following the decline in the use of GTCs in favour of ingame Plex. The original 30/60/90 day GTC market was mostly direct trades between players buying and selling (there’s still a Timecode Bazaar forum in sell orders) with a minority of speculators who had to be prepared to wait significantly longer to profit from investments.

Making Plex tradable only once or limiting the number of times they can be sold would benefit CCP from a reporting point of view because they would be able to recognise the profit on them faster and reduce their liabilities. Allowing gametime tokens to degrade would breach the fixed debt value of gametime, which is a problem. Placing a restriction upon the method of exchange wouldn’t necessarily mean that sellers acquire less ISK for their $ when they come to sell them ingame. It would restrict third parties from profiting on the transaction and it might slow down Plex inflation. Slowing down Plex inflation benefits CCP as well as ingame Plex buyers because it protects their revenue via direct sales (if this time next year a buyer can buy a Plex and expect to sell it for two billion ISK, their Plex revenue will drop).

I have a few more things to add but I might try break the posts up or it'll be an even bigger wall of text. Some interesting points made so far though. I still think this one would be better in MD than F&I.


Price gouging for a luxury good. JFC. Roll

Cry me a river.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Marsha Mallow
#72 - 2015-07-20 19:50:25 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Price gouging for a luxury good. JFC. Roll

Cry me a river.

You can roll your eyes like a stroppy teenager and mutter about Social Justice Warriors to the adulation of the other internet pea-brains and I'll be just as entertained as the next person. But your comments are littered with economic jargon (some of it contradictory or irrelevant) which suggests you some knowledge you want to show off. I'm starting to wonder if there's any understanding there, because that Hyperion remark is dim for all sorts of reasons.

Remember your earlier comment 'market forces will solve the issue?' That stance derives from Smith advocating free market economics to justify minimal governmental economic interference. It's been adopted by free market capitalists and is not an apolitical stance. If you want to take it into lunatic fringe territory look at Rand's principle of 'rational selfishness.' Bear in mind the early draft of one of her essay collections was titled 'The Fascist New Frontier' and it should be clear that debates over free markets vs regulation have ideological elements. This is also pertinent to the recent financial crisis, and I find your earlier reference to Gresham's Law is hilarious in this context, see here (scroll down for a transcript of the lecture):

Quote:
Economic theory has been used to change the world in its own image, with the connivance of governments that relaxed regulations to enable these changes. Business people took full advantage of the opportunities thus offered. The results include a financial system which proved fatally fragile and austerity policies which are not only personally and socially disagreeable but may also be self-defeating. Worst, in two countries so far, the crisis has undermined democracy.

This is not a private squabble amongst academic economists but a matter of profound public importance.


You should check this by Amartya Sen. Actually, anyone with an interest in economic theory should, it's accessible to lay readers and non-academics. Pay particular attention to the section on 'entitlement' because you're using the phrase colloquially when it has an different (and less insulting) meaning in economic theory. His study of the 1940s Bengal famine highlighted that famines can occur even when there is enough food because of macro shortages which local bureauracies deliberately ignored in favour of allowing the market to correct itself. In fact, bureacratic failure caused the death of 1.5m people due to unregulated hoarding and price gouging. The author was awarded the Nobel Prize in Economics for this, and it is used by governments to inform policy. See here for commentary on the ethics of speculating on food prices or here for a presentation on water. Water is actually a really hot topic in economics and there's masses of info available.

If gametime is treated as a luxury item rather than a basic commodity, the 'invisible hand' of the market won't correct Plex inflation. New player retention isn't strong enough, and this is a virtual closed world economy with a finite supply of players. The most valuable unit of currency in EvE are players. Allowing free market corrections in this context quite literally means allowing gougers to exacerbate unsubs in the hope that new player retention will correct the deficit and maintain supply. That's not a sustainable policy.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2015-07-20 20:30:31 UTC
Make it so, I can't wait for the day that we see 4~5b idk for a plex because no one wants to buy one IRL and there are too few of them left in game.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#74 - 2015-07-20 20:37:14 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Make it so, I can't wait for the day that we see 4~5b idk for a plex because no one wants to buy one IRL and there are too few of them left in game.



Heh....probably the outcome of such a boneheaded policy.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Melek D'Ivri
Illuminated Overwatch Group
#75 - 2015-07-22 00:23:21 UTC
Marsha Mallow, you seem to have an extremely good grasp of economics and the sociology of gaming, so I for one must admit I'm kind of enjoying each time I see a new post from you. You have an understanding of the people behind the keyboard, and the mental effects of in game actions and events on them and I'm not going to write you off as agreeing with the OP that started this thread, but you at least seem to appreciate the viewpoint and ideas generated, and I for one feel you understand the discussions taking place.

Plex is not a right, it's nothing inherited, but it is a unique and cherished part of EVE, that most people get a little bit of a jolt when they hear from me, "Yes, you actually CAN pay a monthly sub on in game currency." I see shady little corners of the market all the time where people buy up everything so they can monopolize and resell at whatever price they want to, if they have the ISK to back it and the ability and skills to make it personally profitable to them. I'm sure it happens, but I sincerely hate to think that players with inordinate amounts of ISK really are driving up prices just for their amusement and benefit, which would point to likely being players that sell PLEX they've personally purchased.

I do make enough money in real life to subscribe to EVE Online, and I have at times done just that, because I wanted to at the time, not out of necessity in game. I enjoy the ideas and concepts behind PLEX, but I freely admit that I dread PLEX day every month. More important to me, is the new players to EVE. They are coming into this game, hearing about how great PLEX is , how they can never pay a dollar for EVE if they can't/don't want to, but then they see their ability to make ISK in game, and PLEX prices, and instantly see the mentality, "Subscribe or die, scrub." I support the idea that most if not all new players that aren't being brought to the game by a friend through Buddy System are probably going to have to subscribe to EVE at least for one month, simply because it's true. I've had friends that managed to make over a billion isk their first week in EVE, but that's a different topic entirely from this one. I personally budget my in game "fun money" because I know longevity is worth more to me than trying out a PVP marauder just because I had the ISK for it. But many new players that barely can scrape together enough to PLEX are more than likely going to have 0 fun money and get little enjoyment out of the game. I've spoken with people that loved the game and just couldn't grind it out each month, so that was the end of EVE for them. I've had friends leave over PLEX prices even if they could afford them, they simply did not want to. What I see is a portion of the veterans of EVE leaving because it's for them grind isk, make plex, spend some money that's leftover. Rinse. Repeat. I see new players that have a huge barrier in their face leaving many of them unable to stay with the game. My feelings aside, I just want to see new players have a better experience in game, because their is some fantastic communities on here, better than ANY OTHER GAME EVER, and I personally feel for folks that have little, and EVE is basically their only real life enjoyment. I don't feel those folks should get subsidized on EVE, I in fact *kicks soapbox back before it's too late* subsidizing EVE would just flat out suck for everyone; but I do feel like something outrageous is going on with PLEX prices and it needs fixing.

I also want to point out a very blatant fact many people ignore. Typically 10% off PLEX sales coincide with a PLEX-sink event. Ability to view an event live, attend said event, participate in a tournament; CCP may provide a reason to give an influx of PLEX in game, but from what I have seen watching them and what they do the last 4 years, they probably consume more of those PLEX than the add to the in game market (because yes, spacerich pilots on EVE don't have to buy real PLEX to use them on those events as far as I know, they can simply drop 5 billion ISK on a bunch of PLEX) and factor in how many participants use this route...
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2015-07-22 01:36:28 UTC
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
However, PLEX is the only currency that is backed against "real world" currency, directly. It's attached to a real world value and therefore it will always have value; unlike trit or Veld or Vindicators it actually carries value both as sub time and its percieved value.

It's backed by real-world fiat currency which acts a lot like the fiat currency ISK in EVE Online. The relative stability of this fiat currency is a testament to the stability of the value of PLEX. Its worth will adjust a lot over time, but it will only adjust a lot in response to major economic changes.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#77 - 2015-07-22 03:51:54 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
However, PLEX is the only currency that is backed against "real world" currency, directly. It's attached to a real world value and therefore it will always have value; unlike trit or Veld or Vindicators it actually carries value both as sub time and its percieved value.

It's backed by real-world fiat currency which acts a lot like the fiat currency ISK in EVE Online. The relative stability of this fiat currency is a testament to the stability of the value of PLEX. Its worth will adjust a lot over time, but it will only adjust a lot in response to major economic changes.


The stupid is getting strong in this thread.

Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#78 - 2015-07-22 03:52:13 UTC
Damn double posting...

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2015-07-22 09:27:21 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
The stupid is getting strong in this thread.

Roll

Agreeing with trends supported by tremendous amounts of statistical data isn't stupid, regardless of how counter-intuitive the trend(s) may be.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2015-07-22 10:06:00 UTC
why should i spend my rl money on a plex for it to go out of date? its not a carton of milk and it also not cheap, i will sell my plex for as much as i want to sell it for and going out of date to benefit you is not a good idea

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*