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Starting skills levels should increase for new players

Author
Ultim8Evil
Exit-Strategy
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#21 - 2015-07-22 00:47:51 UTC
This is a good idea, but it needs to be structured/guided.

If a new player starts with a pool of 1-2m SP to distribute, how will they know where to usefully put it?

Follow me on Twitter for literally no good reason @TheUltim8Evil

Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#22 - 2015-07-22 00:54:10 UTC
EVE is non-linear unlike the WoW example posted up above. Skills make that possible. The only gap is in the wider selection of ships and equipment at the disposal of players with more SP. But no one can use every ship and every mod and every skill at the same time. And in ways, having so many such options can put one at a disadvantage; if they get rusty with a particular tactic on a particular ship while the newer player has but only focused on understanding that ship and it's current state for a given time.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Darth Terona
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#23 - 2015-07-22 00:54:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Terona
If they pick a class during the char creation; military, industrial, miner, explorer, broker,
Then the sp can be distributed for them

Would be cool to have a short vid for each job too. Like the one for races.


And for gods sake, update starting overview :)

As for the chars already in the game, give em a rundown of each job and a guide on redeeming sp.

If they mess up.. Hehe.
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#24 - 2015-07-22 01:23:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
I enjoyed my time beginning the game. The beginner agents were around to do missions for whilst learning the skills, the ones I needed were trained more than quick enough. After I got into an actual corp skills were something I figured out while mining for the corp, and we got some awox shenanigans on one of our mining ops. So one of the newbies decided to make his own corp and bring a few of us with him, and we did have some fun.


My point is skills are a non issue. Giving free skills isn't needed. At all.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?

Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#25 - 2015-07-22 02:15:55 UTC
Perhaps fiddling with lowering the modifiers on some of the Engineering and Navigation skills?

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#26 - 2015-07-22 03:19:34 UTC
Ultim8Evil wrote:
This is a good idea, but it needs to be structured/guided.
...


Totally agree with that.

The suggestions about a career choice is good, as long new players get well educated about the choices they have to make at the start, but I believe the first careers need to be about ship piloting, not anything else.

Traders, industry, mining, exploring skills do not change much with new technologies added in the ships race.

Have a new player have to make a choice between piloting a mining ship, or a hauler, or an explorer, or a fighting ship, and providing higher starting skill points in these areas make sense, as ships technologies is what evolves the most in Eve.

As a side note, I do not believe the game should refund any skill point for anyone. It is part of the diffculty to make a choice and having to live with these choices.

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project

Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#27 - 2015-07-22 03:27:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Saisin
Webvan wrote:
EVE is non-linear unlike the WoW example posted up above. Skills make that possible. The only gap is in the wider selection of ships and equipment at the disposal of players with more SP. But no one can use every ship and every mod and every skill at the same time. And in ways, having so many such options can put one at a disadvantage; if they get rusty with a particular tactic on a particular ship while the newer player has but only focused on understanding that ship and it's current state for a given time.


This is true, and one of the fundamentals trait of Eve that drew me in the game in the first place.

The vets get the widest options, while a newcomers can quickly specialize and compete in one field. But this is not really true.

At equal ship and skills levels, how-to-fly, implants, officiers mods(ISK), links, boosters and metagame are combining to make veterans way more efficient than a new player.
I wish these other aspects (except for the metagame and how-to-fly) would not override skills in such a significant amount.

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project

Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2015-07-22 03:48:33 UTC
Saisin wrote:


The vets get the widest options, while a newcomers can quickly specialize and compete in one field. But this is not really true.

At equal ship and skills levels, how-to-fly, implants, officiers mods(ISK), links, boosters and metagame are combining to make veterans way more efficient than a new player.
I wish these other aspects (except for the metagame and how-to-fly) would not override skills in such a significant amount.


Not sure what's wrong with such layout? That's a straght forward scheme - first in more to win. You simply can not equlize vets and greenhors in such a manner when last one would be happy and touch the vets level.
Consider you are as one of the vets and your thread is only because you want your alts be much effective and provide you high level of results in a short period of time vs. go to char bazar and burn billions for a proper toon.

Nothing to do with newbro.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#29 - 2015-07-22 03:53:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Saisin wrote:
At equal ship and skills levels, how-to-fly, implants, officiers mods(ISK), links, boosters and metagame are combining to make veterans way more efficient than a new player.
Why, you buying me some of that stuff, man? lol you're richer than me and I've been at it possibly (looks at profile) a lot longer than you (unless just a younger char like mine is). Send me a 3bil manticore setup, Bro, I know you got one wasting away. I just have less than a year of training into it for this char and a little more to go, I'll get owned otherwise Cry
Not fair... nuh-uh Lol
"how-to-fly" = point and shoot then run away lol

Yeah Webby only has a few T2 ships but he has the core skills. I don't see the prob under a year of training.. and most bling is just a sinkhole. Even on my mostly mission runner char, I run like I'm going to get blowed up for sure, often even just undocking t1 ships with nothing but t2 mods. I don't drop PLEX into the game (and a newbie can though - imo a waste), nor do I mindlessly farm. I don't even have any mining skills to speak of on any char. Other than pew, about the only other skill I have is trading. But what I do have I just train it all up, or close to it. My third char, about 5 weeks of training, and is a blast to play. Just 1 T1 frig, quite a lot of fun to fly and all T2 fit. imo any newbie would do well with it.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2015-07-22 04:21:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Ultim8Evil wrote:
This is a good idea, but it needs to be structured/guided.

If a new player starts with a pool of 1-2m SP to distribute, how will they know where to usefully put it?


Even if you tell a new player where to put them they wont, by and large, listen.

When I started out I had a few friends. Several of them would train this or that as they wanted to fly this ship or that. I would argue, train your core skills first. Eventually when we wound up in a NS alliance I was getting into fleets in a T2 fit sniper BS, they had to be content with support ships and eventually they all buggered off back to HS unhappy that they couldn't fly a BS, etc.

They eventually came around and trained those skills. One guy...took him forever to train even 1 type of T2 large guns (by then I had generalized to Amarr, Caldari and Gallente large guns).

I was lucky, I read some stuff on a few websites, listened to the older vets in my corp/alliance, and it worked out okay for me.

Most new players...they'll, by and large, squander an extra SP they get then be back here whining. I put all my SP in to [insert racial name here] BS but I still can't fly it!!!!

Is training the support skills sexy and fun? No, not really. But when you get them all to 4 you'll be able to fit a pretty decent ship...be it a cruiser, frigate or whatever. Get them to 5 and you'll have quite a feeling of accomplishment. Of course, if it were handed to you on a platter you'll still have that disgusting sense of entitlement and be back here whining you don't have both Amarr and Gallente carrier 4.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2015-07-22 04:26:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Perhaps fiddling with lowering the modifiers on some of the Engineering and Navigation skills?


Yeah so the new people can justify not training them for an even longer period of time and they can come here and whine bitterly for an even longer period.

Oh, and are you going to tweak fitting requirements for modules and what not too? Or are you going to be happy seeing all your current fits become no longer possible.

Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2015-07-22 04:35:44 UTC
Saisin wrote:
Webvan wrote:
EVE is non-linear unlike the WoW example posted up above. Skills make that possible. The only gap is in the wider selection of ships and equipment at the disposal of players with more SP. But no one can use every ship and every mod and every skill at the same time. And in ways, having so many such options can put one at a disadvantage; if they get rusty with a particular tactic on a particular ship while the newer player has but only focused on understanding that ship and it's current state for a given time.


This is true, and one of the fundamentals trait of Eve that drew me in the game in the first place.

The vets get the widest options, while a newcomers can quickly specialize and compete in one field. But this is not really true.

At equal ship and skills levels, how-to-fly, implants, officiers mods(ISK), links, boosters and metagame are combining to make veterans way more efficient than a new player.
I wish these other aspects (except for the metagame and how-to-fly) would not override skills in such a significant amount.


This is always going to be the case. Take a new player give him an character with 100 million SP and he'll likely have his ass handed to him by a player who has a character with 50 or 60 million SP who earned those SP via training and at the same time playing the game.

It is totally unreasonable to expect a 5 or 10 million SP pilot to be able to beat a 100 million SP veteran player in single combat (generally speaking). However, in this game you are NOT relegated to single combat. A 100 million SP vet is going to find himself hard pressed against even a modest number of 5-10 million SP characters...if they were even somewhat smart in the skills they trained.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#33 - 2015-07-22 04:52:01 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Perhaps fiddling with lowering the modifiers on some of the Engineering and Navigation skills?


Yeah so the new people can justify not training them for an even longer period of time and they can come here and whine bitterly for an even longer period.

Oh, and are you going to tweak fitting requirements for modules and what not too? Or are you going to be happy seeing all your current fits become no longer possible.

Roll


whut?

Lowering some key Navigation/Engineering skills from 4x or 5x down to 2x or 3x suddenly kills fitting?

seriously? read what i said before jumping to wild conclusions.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2015-07-22 05:13:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Perhaps fiddling with lowering the modifiers on some of the Engineering and Navigation skills?


Yeah so the new people can justify not training them for an even longer period of time and they can come here and whine bitterly for an even longer period.

Oh, and are you going to tweak fitting requirements for modules and what not too? Or are you going to be happy seeing all your current fits become no longer possible.

Roll


whut?

Lowering some key Navigation/Engineering skills from 4x or 5x down to 2x or 3x suddenly kills fitting?

seriously? read what i said before jumping to wild conclusions.


Yes, you have never had a "tight" fit where you just barely get the fit on there? For example, my mining character has a skiff fit where if you changed CPU management from 5% down to 4% he'd have to change the fit and reduce the tank....i.e. make him more vulnerable to being ganked if in HS....okay I could go out and by an implant, but how does that help a new player? Similarly for a scythe set up for one of our fleet doctrines...nerf CPU management down to 3%/level fit no longer works. Wont work with 4%/level either. Exequror fit doesn't work either.

Edit:

I have an aguoror fit where if you nerf Power Grid Managment from 5%/level to 4%/level it is no longer viable. An enyo fit where if PG Management or CPU Management are dropped down to 3%/level it wont work.

Edit II: Unless you are talking about the rank of the skill, but even then...most of the "Key Engineering" skills have a rank of 1 or 2 alreay. Some are 3 and the only other "key" skill in engineering would be Advanced Weapons Upgrades which is, admittedly rank 6.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#35 - 2015-07-22 05:20:43 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Perhaps fiddling with lowering the modifiers on some of the Engineering and Navigation skills?


Yeah so the new people can justify not training them for an even longer period of time and they can come here and whine bitterly for an even longer period.

Oh, and are you going to tweak fitting requirements for modules and what not too? Or are you going to be happy seeing all your current fits become no longer possible.

Roll


whut?

Lowering some key Navigation/Engineering skills from 4x or 5x down to 2x or 3x suddenly kills fitting?

seriously? read what i said before jumping to wild conclusions.


Yes, you have never had a "tight" fit where you just barely get the fit on there? For example, my mining character has a skiff fit where if you changed CPU management from 5% down to 4% he'd have to change the fit and reduce the tank....i.e. make him more vulnerable to being ganked if in HS....okay I could go out and by an implant, but how does that help a new player? Similarly for a scythe set up for one of our fleet doctrines...nerf CPU management down to 3%/level fit no longer works. Wont work with 4%/level either. Exequror fit doesn't work either.



since you clearly don't understand, i'll try and use small words: i'm talking about changing the training time modifier on certain skills, not the benefit the skills impart once trained.

For example, Navigation is a 1x skill, High Speed Maneuvering is a 5x skill, Jump Drive Calibration is a 9x skill and so on.

Make High Speed Maneuvering a 2x or 3x skill, for training time only.

Do you get it now?

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2015-07-22 05:27:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Perhaps fiddling with lowering the modifiers on some of the Engineering and Navigation skills?


Yeah so the new people can justify not training them for an even longer period of time and they can come here and whine bitterly for an even longer period.

Oh, and are you going to tweak fitting requirements for modules and what not too? Or are you going to be happy seeing all your current fits become no longer possible.

Roll


whut?

Lowering some key Navigation/Engineering skills from 4x or 5x down to 2x or 3x suddenly kills fitting?

seriously? read what i said before jumping to wild conclusions.


Yes, you have never had a "tight" fit where you just barely get the fit on there? For example, my mining character has a skiff fit where if you changed CPU management from 5% down to 4% he'd have to change the fit and reduce the tank....i.e. make him more vulnerable to being ganked if in HS....okay I could go out and by an implant, but how does that help a new player? Similarly for a scythe set up for one of our fleet doctrines...nerf CPU management down to 3%/level fit no longer works. Wont work with 4%/level either. Exequror fit doesn't work either.



since you clearly don't understand, i'll try and use small words: i'm talking about changing the training time modifier on certain skills, not the benefit the skills impart once trained.

For example, Navigation is a 1x skill, High Speed Maneuvering is a 5x skill, Jump Drive Calibration is a 9x skill and so on.

Make High Speed Maneuvering a 2x or 3x skill, for training time only.

Do you get it now?


Dude, look at Evemon, or open the skills. Most of them are already rank 1. And the term is not modifier, but rank. So before you get all stupid about me not reading learn to write. Roll

Oh, and many of the Nav skills are pretty low too for new players.

Warp Drive Operation Rank 1
Navigation Rank 1
Afterburner Rank 1
Evasive Maneuvering Rank 2
Fuel Conservation Rank 2

You have a bit of a point with High Speed Maneuvering and Acceleration Control (Ranks 5 and 4) respectively. Otherwise all the other skills are jump drive skills which are 5 and above...and probably for good reason and not something a new player should be worried about.

Roll

And just because you've been such a complete jackass,

Power Grid Management Rank 1
CPU Management Rank 1
Capacitor Emissions Systems Rank 2
Capacitor Systems Operation Rank 1
Electronic Upgrades Rank 2
Energy Grid Upgrades Rank 2
Energy Pulse Weapons Rank 2
Nanite Operation Rank 2
Weapons Upgrades Rank 2
Capacitor Management Rank 3
Nanite Interfacing Rank 3
Thermodynamics Rank 3

12 out of 14 skills are Rank 3 or lower in Engineering. The two exceptions being Advanced Weapons Upgrades and Capital Capacitor Emissions Systems. Like the latter is really something a new player should be worried about.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Velarra
#37 - 2015-07-22 06:04:36 UTC
How do you tell the difference between a new player & a new character?

In the hands of an established player who's started a fresh account?
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#38 - 2015-07-22 08:15:50 UTC
Darth Terona wrote:
Having to wait about for two weeks or more before you can even try entry level positions puts off a lot of people.


what do you define as entry level?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#39 - 2015-07-22 08:26:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Lan Wang wrote:
Darth Terona wrote:
Having to wait about for two weeks or more before you can even try entry level positions puts off a lot of people.


what do you define as entry level?

hah, I went through newbie training like two years ago (wanted to answer newbie questions better with updated system as I did with the old), it took about three weeks of normal play. Tutorial -> Career Agent missions -> Sisters of EVE epic arc. [insert scorn here] Roll

And if you guys are so worried about "newbies" while you are posting in forums, how come we don't see you posting in the Q&A forum with the rest of us helping new players with their questions?? Smells fishy to me... Straight

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#40 - 2015-07-22 08:31:22 UTC
Yes, new players should be able to fly a Hulk from day one.