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Stop Kill-Mails for High-Sec Kills.
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McOboe
Viscosity
#1 - 2012-01-01 04:03:14 UTC  |  Edited by: McOboe
Alright, so we all know that there are issues with war-decs against newbies. Rather than tackle the HUGE problem of re-working the war-dec system, let's try another approach. What do high-sec griefers want? STATS. Sure, they could be the sadistic type that just like to watch people suffer, but ultimately, the ones that target newbies are trying to boost their PvP standings on websites such as the BattleClinic Killboard. I could understand the need for a kill-mail- to let a person know who killed them so that revenge can be had. However, IMHO, the kill-mails do more harm than good when it comes to griefer wars.

So let's just stop the high-sec kill-mails. If I'm not mistaken, that is the key engine that fills the stats of BattleClinic. If you get no credit for your kills, then why bother war-dec'ing newbies? Three benefits from this- 1.) War-dec system stays basically the same. 2.) Griefer wars would be drastically reduced. 3.) Wars against mega-industrials have the green light.

Probable complaints- 1.) Players won't know who killed them. Fine, then send an email only to that player that died, and no one else. 2.) Newbies need to learn to fight. True, but NOT in a griefer war. Griefers WANT newbies to fight back. In reality, the best defense a newbie has is to avoid them by scanning local and having all WTs on watch-list. Newbies taking up the fight against griefers is the wrong thing to do. 3.) Mercenaries would be out of a job. Wrong. They would still be hired on by the mega-industrials, who have the funds to pay for their services. Newbies often neither have the funds to hire them, nor the awareness of the existence of mercenary corps in the first place.

Thoughts?
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#2 - 2012-01-01 04:20:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
Newbies have signed up for pvp server, and they ought to know that!

BTW with flawed alliance hopping they can wipe out the wardec for a small fee to alliances that offer that service.

Killmails dont need to be fixed, because killmails don't matter. Its pewpew what matters and tears and nerdrage.
McOboe
Viscosity
#3 - 2012-01-01 04:38:33 UTC  |  Edited by: McOboe
Nestara,

True! This is indeed a PvP game, and newbies do need to learn ways to cope with it. But be honest- should a player get ANY credit for killing a newbie in high-sec? It's like a high-schooler beating up a grade schooler. Do you think his friends would be "high-fiving" him after that? Possibly, but unlikely. Sure, they may get a kick out of it, but let's stop giving them credit for it.

As for the whole alliance hopping deal, that's a different, but definitely related topic. And yup, I totally understand the tears and rage-quiting aspect of PvP. I advise newbies to learn to suck it up and move on.
Goose99
#4 - 2012-01-01 04:52:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
I personally think all kms should be removed. Epeen feature was bad back when it was implemented, and is bad now. Back in the days, there was real pvp, and then... there were kms -> blobs + risk aversion.

This should be a good start. +1
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#5 - 2012-01-01 05:09:19 UTC
McOboe wrote:
Nestara,

True! This is indeed a PvP game, and newbies do need to learn ways to cope with it. But be honest- should a player get ANY credit for killing a newbie in high-sec? It's like a high-schooler beating up a grade schooler. Do you think his friends would be "high-fiving" him after that? Possibly, but unlikely. Sure, they may get a kick out of it, but let's stop giving them credit for it.

As for the whole alliance hoping deal, that's a different, but definitely related topic. And yup, I totally understand the tears and rage-quiting aspect of PvP. I advise newbies to learn to suck it up and move on.


Its not a credit at all. If you're real newbie, of even if you aren't but you're in noobship or noob frigate, prolly gatecamps will just let you pass. Only in sov null you'll be nuked even in a noobship, but that's understandable.

Too nobody will suicide gank anyway if the target don't have worthwhile cargo or ship fittings, and whoever has expensive cargo ship and fitting isn't a newbie, except of course if he's mining in the middle of the ganking season instead of station trading hauling or running missions.

And yes player should get credit for beating like a school bully on someone weak and defenseless. If the other side isn't weak and defenseless you prolly need to gtfo not to get beating yourself. That's in the core of the game. You always have to pick your fights in Eve, and being in better ship with better skilled pilot or having more titans on your side, its the same really.
McOboe
Viscosity
#6 - 2012-01-01 05:23:55 UTC
Nestara,

Good points. Yeah, if you have valuable cargo and fittings, then of course you are a great target. I'd expect to get ganked or war-dec'd for my "stuff". And true, most low-sec gatecamps would let newbie ships pass, as they are unlikely to have desirable "stuff". And I have no issues with suicide-ganking either. And of course, SOV space holders would kill pretty much anyone that is not a friendly.

So are you saying then that want the "high-sec" kill-mails to continue? What is your justification?
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#7 - 2012-01-01 05:30:36 UTC
McOboe wrote:
Nestara,

Good points. Yeah, if you have valuable cargo and fittings, then of course you are a great target. I'd expect to get ganked or war-dec'd for my "stuff". And true, most low-sec gatecamps would let newbie ships pass, as they are unlikely to have desirable "stuff". And I have no issues with suicide-ganking either. And of course, SOV space holders would kill pretty much anyone that is not a friendly.

So are you saying then that want the "high-sec" kill-mails to continue? What is your justification?


If you wanna killmails to be removed, ask to be removed completely and not selectively as its unfair only kills in low and null to show. I don't think highsec gankers have lesser right than others to see their kill on the killboard, together with fittings.
McOboe
Viscosity
#8 - 2012-01-01 05:39:02 UTC
My reasons for removing the high-sec emails are similar. I WANT the folks in low-sec/null-sec to get credit for their kills, so it encourages griefers to go there. Basically, to show that you get credit for fighting in a place where folks fight back. I see now that this is more of a disgreement between us on an opinion. And if you talk about fairness, I don't think it's particularly "fair" for a newbie to get brutally blasted into dust by a high-sec griefer through an exploitation of the war-dec system. In my view, it's much fairer to award that griefer zero points for that effort. And, as BattleClinic, an outside entity, would have to change their rating systems, the only internal solution is to remove high-sec kill-mails, or remove kill-mails completely.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#9 - 2012-01-01 05:47:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
Highsec gankers aren't griefers. What's according to EULA and CCP rules isn't griefing, no matter you want to show it as such, because it suits your argument.

And number of kills or isk ratio isn't rating in any way, because its very easy to skew. that isk ratio might be valuable only to sov power blocks as some measure of success on corp and alliance scale.

In short, only way not to lose isk in pvp is not to pvp at all.

You want one legitimate playstyle to be discriminated against, and killmails not to show. If it were illegitimate, I could understand, but its completely legitimate.
McOboe
Viscosity
#10 - 2012-01-01 06:01:59 UTC
You still have not provided a valid counter-argument. Yes, what they are doing is within good keeping of the EULA and CCP. Yes, CCP does not extend their definition of "griefer" to them. I'm fine with that. However, you've flip-flopped on your original statement regarding kill-mails and awarding credit. You said earlier that you want to give credit to those in high-sec by allowing them the benefit of kill-mails. Yet now, you are saying that numbers of kills and ISK ratio isn't a rating, and thus doesn't really matter. So then, by your new statement, I can infer that you support kill-mails going away altogether. But later, you talk about SOV power blocks, who may value that data, which then indicates that you want kill-mails to continue. And as for your statement about PvP and losing ISK, how is that relevant to this discussion? And what's this talk about "legitimate" playing styles? My suggestions help to push those that prey on newbies into low-sec. I haven't said a thing about "preventing" them from killing newbies. My goal is to lessen the current "encouragement" that they receive from the killboard systems.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#11 - 2012-01-01 06:04:46 UTC
McOboe wrote:
You still have not provided a valid counter-argument. Yes, what they are doing is within good keeping of the EULA and CCP. Yes, CCP does not extend their definition of "griefer" to them. I'm fine with that. However, you've flip-flopped on your original statement regarding kill-mails and awarding credit. You said earlier that you want to give credit to those in high-sec by allowing them the benefit of kill-mails. Yet now, you are saying that numbers of kills and ISK ratio isn't a rating, and thus doesn't really matter. So then, by your new statement, I can infer that you support kill-mails going away altogether. But later, you talk about SOV power blocks, who may value that data, which then indicates that you want kill-mails to continue. And as for your statement about PvP and losing ISK, how is that relevant to this discussion? And what's this talk about "legitimate" playing styles? My suggestions help to push those that prey on newbies into low-sec. I haven't said a thing about "preventing" them from killing newbies. My goal is to lessen the current "encouragement" that they receive from the killboard systems.



You're discriminating against one group of players because you personally don't like how they play the game, even though their playstyle is legitimate.

I say killmails for all or killmails for none, or its unfair. Really I can't explain the obvious anymore.
Jenson Andedare
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-01-01 06:17:09 UTC
McOboe wrote:
It's like a high-schooler beating up a grade schooler.


This is the only point I disagree with you on. High schoolers and grade schoolers are too close in age/skill levels for an accurate comparison of the typical noobhunter wardec type. A more accurate comparison would be a Navy SEAL beating up an infant. They purposely seek out targets that have no chance against them simply to rack up kill scores to boost their ratings.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#13 - 2012-01-01 06:22:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
Jenson Andedare wrote:
McOboe wrote:
It's like a high-schooler beating up a grade schooler.


This is the only point I disagree with you on. High schoolers and grade schoolers are too close in age/skill levels for an accurate comparison of the typical noobhunter wardec type. A more accurate comparison would be a Navy SEAL beating up an infant. They purposely seek out targets that have no chance against them simply to rack up kill scores to boost their ratings.


Tell me which war is fair?

Did the USA acually give Bin Laden some nukes and other weapons so that forces are matched?

And the game is all about that.
Bearilian
Man Eating Bears
#14 - 2012-01-01 06:23:30 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:


You're discriminating against one group of players because you personally don't like how they play the game, even though their playstyle is legitimate.

I say killmails for all or killmails for none, or its unfair. Really I can't explain the obvious anymore.


as McOboe has stated very clearly, you are not making any valid points except one. its not fair to only do it in high sec. but in reality this is your only argument because i get the feeling that you dont want any removed. it would not be discrimination of any kind. discrimination implies singling out an individual or group from an event. If no one recieves kill mails in high sec this is just reagion wide rule, there is no one that cannot go to low and try to earn their km there. you need to stop arguing yourself in circles please, because you are starting to make a fool of yourself. you stated that "one group" of people would be discriminated against, yet you tried to argue that there is no such thing as "griefers", but are you trying to say that there are people who live in high sec, war decking noobs and we should pamper their self indulgence of "bragging rights"?
Grogidubnus
Monkey Steals The Peach
#15 - 2012-01-01 06:25:03 UTC
Let me try to fully understand where you're coming from... You started playing a PVP-based game, and want the PVP to be removed from a massive portion of it? That's what I'm reading from your emo-teen whining.
You can't avoid PVP in Eve, you may get away with not seeing the business end of a blaster for a while, but it will eventually present itself to you no matter how many precautions you take.
You want to remove high sec KMs. Why? It certainly will NOT cut down on the wars in high sec. The KMs are nice sure, but the ransoms and expensive gear that some people drop is the motivator for me. (and most other high sec PVP'ers I'm sure)
If you want to move PVP to low and null, I'd say you'd need to move all asteroids other than veldspar to low and null. It's only fair.
I love carebear rants about how high sec PVP should be considered harassment or a violation of the EULA when this is a PVP game that affords players the opportunity to make isk in a non-violent way. Take what was given to you gratefully, because you were also given ways to avoid wars.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#16 - 2012-01-01 06:27:00 UTC
Bearilian wrote:
Nestara Aldent wrote:


You're discriminating against one group of players because you personally don't like how they play the game, even though their playstyle is legitimate.

I say killmails for all or killmails for none, or its unfair. Really I can't explain the obvious anymore.


as McOboe has stated very clearly, you are not making any valid points except one. its not fair to only do it in high sec. but in reality this is your only argument because i get the feeling that you dont want any removed. it would not be discrimination of any kind. discrimination implies singling out an individual or group from an event. If no one recieves kill mails in high sec this is just reagion wide rule, there is no one that cannot go to low and try to earn their km there. you need to stop arguing yourself in circles please, because you are starting to make a fool of yourself. you stated that "one group" of people would be discriminated against, yet you tried to argue that there is no such thing as "griefers", but are you trying to say that there are people who live in high sec, war decking noobs and we should pamper their self indulgence of "bragging rights"?


You're wrong because its a game feature to see the exact cargo and modules of ship you destroyed
A feature you wanna give to some and not to others, arbitrarily based on your prejudice.
McOboe
Viscosity
#17 - 2012-01-01 06:35:59 UTC
Lots of hostility in here! First, PvP is cool. Second, PvP is cool. Third, PVP IS COOL.

Alright, on to Nestara's recent post- outside of bragging rights, why would a person need to know what modules and other stuff were on the ship that they destroyed? And as a rebuttal to your incorrect statement of "A feature you wanna give to some and not to others, arbitrarily based on your prejudice", I ask you this- If it applies to EVERYONE in game, how is that discrimination?

As for Grogidubnus, did I ever say that I wanted PvP to stop? Did I ever say that war-declaration for ISK profit is bad? I do like your idea though of moving nearly all asteroids to low/null sec. As for the EULA, Nestara brought that up. Seriously, I don't even think you read my posts.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#18 - 2012-01-01 06:44:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
McOboe wrote:
Lots of hostility in here! First, PvP is cool. Second, PvP is cool. Third, PVP IS COOL.

Alright, on to Nestara's recent post- outside of bragging rights, why would a person need to know what modules and other stuff were on the ship that they destroyed? And as a rebuttal to your incorrect statement of "A feature you wanna give to some and not to others, arbitrarily based on your prejudice", I ask you this- If it applies to EVERYONE in game, how is that discrimination?

As for Grogidubnus, did I ever say that I wanted PvP to stop? Did I ever say that war-declaration for ISK profit is bad? I do like your idea though of moving nearly all asteroids to low/null sec. As for the EULA, Nestara brought that up. Seriously, I don't even think you read my posts.


Some prefer null, some low, and the third highsec pvp. And it's nice feature to know what all could've dropped, and for sov blocks, how much in isk will the enemy have to spend to cover lossees.

Removing it will not remove pvp from the game, in highsec or anywhere. However it is discrimination against certain playstyle, because all who prefer it will be denied the feature available to others.

Really, its not fair. What that could accomplish is bleed of subscriber numbers to other games, because there are other games with open pvp such as Eve as well.
McOboe
Viscosity
#19 - 2012-01-01 07:00:12 UTC
Nestara,

I hear you. There's a lot of folks that quit playing EVE as well due to their initial distaste for the "war-dec the newbie" style of play. More carebears in the game = more subscriptions for CCP. And I'm not an advocate of removing high-sec PvP. What I am providing is options for solving many of the issues that folks have with the current war-dec system and the impacts on newbie corps. The benefit of this idea is that it could be tested- CCP could implement it and see what happens. Who knows?
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#20 - 2012-01-01 07:05:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
McOboe wrote:
Nestara,

I hear you. There's a lot of folks that quit playing EVE as well due to their initial distaste for the "war-dec the newbie" style of play. More carebears in the game = more subscriptions for CCP. And I'm not an advocate of removing high-sec PvP. What I am providing is options for solving many of the issues that folks have with the current war-dec system and the impacts on newbie corps. The benefit of this idea is that it could be tested- CCP could implement it and see what happens. Who knows?


They would unsub only later, and hate the game and devs on top of it, because they wasted the time on a game that dont suit their playstyle.

Eve is a pvp game and sold as such. You have free trial to test it. Nobody can say he didn't know that this is a pvp game and pvp isn't discouraged.

And newbie corps really arent needed at all. Newbie corp consists of noob CEO that want to be a dictator while providing very little for fellow players, while established player even in a fledgling corp will be able to help and show the newbies how to play.
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