These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

CSM Campaigns

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

A New Voice for a New Eden

First post
Author
Lemon Verbena
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-07-18 10:14:36 UTC
For those of you that are curious...

The Council of Stellar Management is designed to represent the interest of the entire player base.
While i feel that alot of good has come out the the CSM, i also feel that new players have (for the most part) been marginalized.

As a new player i find it more than a little unsettling that our "elected" representatives; (A) don't truly represent the actual players, and (B) have on many occasions used their influence to further their personal or alliance goals.

I am not condemning the idea of the CSM, its' past, or present members.
I am speaking to the new players, and players yet to join EVE. I feel that we need a voice, but to achieve that we need to be proactive.

Make sure you get out and Vote!

I support Liam Oliphants. I believe he will provide a fresh perspective and a new (player) voice for a New (new) Eden.
Liam Oliphants
Doomheim
#2 - 2015-07-18 19:24:18 UTC
While a lot of you will look at this thread and wonder why I didn't start it, I've actually been on the fence on the whole thing. I'm currently a very new player to EVE Online. I didn't know the CSM was a thing until a day or so ago. I think Lemon is right though. All of the voice that is (more than likely) getting through to CCP is from players who have been here for quite a while. Just like with any group of representatives, stagnation is never a good thing. All players need to be equally represented to the best of the CSM's ability for a more accurate portrayal of the voice of EVE Online's player base.

So, consider this my official campaign for CSM. I'll get back to everyone here on the forums as I come up with what I hope to bring to the table as it comes to me. Remember, I am a new player. I need to do some research, figure out things. My overall goal at the moment, is to hope to make EVE Online even more new player friendly. Not to say I want to dumb the game down, not at all. I like the overall complexity of the game, and I am (for the most part) having fun with it. The game would still be niche, and not for everyone to just be able to pick up and play. My goal isn't to flood EVE with new players because it becomes TOO accessible.

So yeah, umm, vote for me for the next elections if you want a fresh voice for the CSM.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#3 - 2015-07-19 17:50:51 UTC
Liam Oliphants wrote:
While a lot of you will look at this thread and wonder why I didn't start it, I've actually been on the fence on the whole thing. I'm currently a very new player to EVE Online. I didn't know the CSM was a thing until a day or so ago. I think Lemon is right though. All of the voice that is (more than likely) getting through to CCP is from players who have been here for quite a while. Just like with any group of representatives, stagnation is never a good thing. All players need to be equally represented to the best of the CSM's ability for a more accurate portrayal of the voice of EVE Online's player base.

So, consider this my official campaign for CSM. I'll get back to everyone here on the forums as I come up with what I hope to bring to the table as it comes to me. Remember, I am a new player. I need to do some research, figure out things. My overall goal at the moment, is to hope to make EVE Online even more new player friendly. Not to say I want to dumb the game down, not at all. I like the overall complexity of the game, and I am (for the most part) having fun with it. The game would still be niche, and not for everyone to just be able to pick up and play. My goal isn't to flood EVE with new players because it becomes TOO accessible.

So yeah, umm, vote for me for the next elections if you want a fresh voice for the CSM.


Yeah so

Do you know who the members of the CSM are and what platform they ran on?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Liam Oliphants
Doomheim
#4 - 2015-07-20 00:20:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Oliphants
Malcanis wrote:


Yeah so

Do you know who the members of the CSM are and what platform they ran on?


No I don't. I suppose this is the part where I go study my EVE Online History so I can see how it's changed over the years and see (if any) mistakes that were made, so that I can not repeat those same mistakes, or make a similar one. Let me go do some research, and I'll get back to you on this.

EDIT: After doing a little bit of research into the CSM X campaign, I've discovered that I don't care. I am a new player to EVE Online, and my point in running is to be a voice for the new players. I can't say that I will be able to speak on behalf of ALL of the new players, but my opinion as a new player shouldn't be to far off from most of them. True, I don't care about going pew pew in space, but there are honestly a handful of other games that allow me to blow up ships in space if I honestly wanted to do that. EVE means so much more to me than the combat aspect of it, and I'd like to see the other aspects grow.

I'm not here to further some secret agenda, I'm here to maybe one day help a game deal with it's new player experience. With what little research I did into the CSM X campaign I noticed that a lot of the people who said they were specifically catering to the New Player crowd specifically were not elected. That tells me that as long as the general public hasn't changed by the time the next elections come around, that I probably don't stand a chance of being elected either. It saddens me to see such a great game have a player base willing to stagnate itself by not allowing the game to have a voice from a more recent player base. If the "bittervets" want to keep electing more "bittervets" into CSM, that's fine. Older players deserve a voice just as much as the new players do. However, when only the older players are getting their voice heard on topics, it will skew everything the CSM stands for in that direction, and the content CCP will release as a result will be likely skewed as well.

People probably wonder why EVE has such a terrible player turnover, and I have a good guess why. This game has been flooded with opinions and voices from players who want to see the game benefit themselves, and players like them, and all of the newer players have either quit the game before their opinion can even be heard, or their voices have been drowned out by the overwhelming roar (or cry if you will) of all the older more experienced players.

However, please correct me if I am wrong.
Lemon Verbena
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2015-07-20 10:39:22 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Liam Oliphants wrote:
While a lot of you will look at this thread and wonder why I didn't start it, I've actually been on the fence on the whole thing. I'm currently a very new player to EVE Online. I didn't know the CSM was a thing until a day or so ago. I think Lemon is right though. All of the voice that is (more than likely) getting through to CCP is from players who have been here for quite a while. Just like with any group of representatives, stagnation is never a good thing. All players need to be equally represented to the best of the CSM's ability for a more accurate portrayal of the voice of EVE Online's player base.

So, consider this my official campaign for CSM. I'll get back to everyone here on the forums as I come up with what I hope to bring to the table as it comes to me. Remember, I am a new player. I need to do some research, figure out things. My overall goal at the moment, is to hope to make EVE Online even more new player friendly. Not to say I want to dumb the game down, not at all. I like the overall complexity of the game, and I am (for the most part) having fun with it. The game would still be niche, and not for everyone to just be able to pick up and play. My goal isn't to flood EVE with new players because it becomes TOO accessible.

So yeah, umm, vote for me for the next elections if you want a fresh voice for the CSM.


Yeah so

Do you know who the members of the CSM are and what platform they ran on?


The entire point of this thread, ( and associated campaign ) is about getting an actual new player on CSM XI..
Saying "Yeah so" instead offering any honest criticism or actual debate is the type of attitude that encouraged me to support Liam in the first place. The CSM would benefit from having the voice of a new player in its ranks... especially so, considering that CCP is very interested in getting new players.

Malcanis... "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt"

<3 <3 <3
Lemon :)
Tisiphone Dira
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-07-20 12:35:53 UTC
Ugh. I just hate how it's year round campaigning now, no break after an election, it's right on the next one. If I wanted a baby-faced infant in charge I'd have voted for Kevin Rudd

*Rimshot*

Ok, where do you stand on the following issues:

Some say the new player experience does not adequately prepare new players for the harsh realities of New Eden. I propose that Aura returns to the tutorial, only this time she is here for vengeance for her unfair dismissal. She ganks the player with her catalyst, taunts them, and tells them to HTFU. Thoughts?

Have you stopped murdering puppies? Yes or no answers only thanks, I don't want your life story.

How old is too old? Is Chance not good enough for you? Are you interested in a timely torpedo delivery straight to your hull?

What's your life story?

Have you accepted James 315 as your personal saviour of highsec?

Why should people vote for somebody trying to fill a niche and yet can't be bothered to do some basic research to establish whether or not that niche is already being filled?

What are you actual proposals for the NPE? Concrete proposals, enough wishy-washy "I'm for the newbie" "fix the new player experience" stuff.

There once was a ganker named tisi

A stunningly beautiful missy

To gank a gross miner

There is nothing finer, cept when they get all pissy

Baaldor
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#7 - 2015-07-20 21:33:16 UTC
Lemon Verbena wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Liam Oliphants wrote:
While a lot of you will look at this thread and wonder why I didn't start it, I've actually been on the fence on the whole thing. I'm currently a very new player to EVE Online. I didn't know the CSM was a thing until a day or so ago. I think Lemon is right though. All of the voice that is (more than likely) getting through to CCP is from players who have been here for quite a while. Just like with any group of representatives, stagnation is never a good thing. All players need to be equally represented to the best of the CSM's ability for a more accurate portrayal of the voice of EVE Online's player base.

So, consider this my official campaign for CSM. I'll get back to everyone here on the forums as I come up with what I hope to bring to the table as it comes to me. Remember, I am a new player. I need to do some research, figure out things. My overall goal at the moment, is to hope to make EVE Online even more new player friendly. Not to say I want to dumb the game down, not at all. I like the overall complexity of the game, and I am (for the most part) having fun with it. The game would still be niche, and not for everyone to just be able to pick up and play. My goal isn't to flood EVE with new players because it becomes TOO accessible.

So yeah, umm, vote for me for the next elections if you want a fresh voice for the CSM.


Yeah so

Do you know who the members of the CSM are and what platform they ran on?


The entire point of this thread, ( and associated campaign ) is about getting an actual new player on CSM XI..
Saying "Yeah so" instead offering any honest criticism or actual debate is the type of attitude that encouraged me to support Liam in the first place. The CSM would benefit from having the voice of a new player in its ranks... especially so, considering that CCP is very interested in getting new players.

Malcanis... "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt"

<3 <3 <3
Lemon :)



Why would CCP be so interested in a New Player that has no idea what Eve is all about?

It would be the same thing as walking into someones business, not knowing anything about it, or very little and start telling them to change this or that.

Liam Oliphants
Doomheim
#8 - 2015-07-20 22:57:47 UTC
My role isn't to be some saint or hero to come fix all your problems. It isn't to be some villian who came and wrecked everything either. My role is to be a voice for change, preferably good change, but change nonetheless. With my little experience from my corp I've joined. I've come to the realization that a lot of "bittervets" like to use a circular logic defense mechanism when you try to talk to them about how EVE needs to change. You're all sitting on your self made thrones for the empires you've built over time. Well here's a history lesson for you guys. Empires don't last. They crumble and fade over time. Some were lucky enough to make it into the history books, others were forgotten. If people are so adamant on keeping EVE's player base stagnant, then the game is going to die off, and everyone loses because EVE is such a great game. EVE would be better if it had the ability to change and evolve with it's player base. What are you bittervets going to do with all this stuff you've done in EVE when you die? Not your character either, I'm talking about you, the player, dying. Everything you've done won't matter.

I think it's in everyone's best interest that EVE continue to live and evolve over time so that future generations of players have the chance to be able to experience what a great game this is. Your killboards and amount of ISK you earned over your lifetime, while recorded for all of history, will be just that, a record in the history books. After we are all gone and future generations pick up this game, they won't care about most of the things that we did either. Some of them might see our records has challenges, and try to break them, and set new records. However, none of that will matter if the game stagnates and dies off.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-07-21 00:45:48 UTC
If you have questions, feel free to contact me as I have already said that I will not be running for a position next term. I may have been in more elections than any other candidate. (maybe) I would recommend that you go back through last year's analysis of candidates to make sure that you are not immediately dismissed. It can happen if you start out on the wrong foot.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Liam Oliphants
Doomheim
#10 - 2015-07-21 01:03:19 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
If you have questions, feel free to contact me as I have already said that I will not be running for a position next term. I may have been in more elections than any other candidate. (maybe) I would recommend that you go back through last year's analysis of candidates to make sure that you are not immediately dismissed. It can happen if you start out on the wrong foot.

m


Thank you. It means a lot to me that you are willing to at least offer help. I'll be sure to keep that in consideration as time goes on.
Baaldor
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#11 - 2015-07-21 13:28:49 UTC
Liam Oliphants wrote:
My role isn't to be some saint or hero to come fix all your problems. It isn't to be some villian who came and wrecked everything either. My role is to be a voice for change, preferably good change, but change nonetheless. With my little experience from my corp I've joined. I've come to the realization that a lot of "bittervets" like to use a circular logic defense mechanism when you try to talk to them about how EVE needs to change. You're all sitting on your self made thrones for the empires you've built over time. Well here's a history lesson for you guys. Empires don't last. They crumble and fade over time. Some were lucky enough to make it into the history books, others were forgotten. If people are so adamant on keeping EVE's player base stagnant, then the game is going to die off, and everyone loses because EVE is such a great game. EVE would be better if it had the ability to change and evolve with it's player base. What are you bittervets going to do with all this stuff you've done in EVE when you die? Not your character either, I'm talking about you, the player, dying. Everything you've done won't matter.

I think it's in everyone's best interest that EVE continue to live and evolve over time so that future generations of players have the chance to be able to experience what a great game this is. Your killboards and amount of ISK you earned over your lifetime, while recorded for all of history, will be just that, a record in the history books. After we are all gone and future generations pick up this game, they won't care about most of the things that we did either. Some of them might see our records has challenges, and try to break them, and set new records. However, none of that will matter if the game stagnates and dies off.


First off although I have been around a bit, I am not a bitter vet. Not even sure why that term is even used.

Change for the sake of change is not a solution, and to make a change is not moving forward.

A qualified, well thought, balanced reasoning to make a change, is something i can work with, even if i do not agree with it, I can understand it and work with it.

You on the other hand, with your diatribe of hate towards anyone that has had any sort of success or has invested in sort of time, seems bent marginalizing players that have stuck with this game and CCP through all the frustrations, trials and tribulations through out the years.

Actually, you should probably thank a "Bitter Vet" for sticking with the game so you and others can enjoy it also.
Liam Oliphants
Doomheim
#12 - 2015-07-21 21:46:44 UTC
I don't even have an official platform as far as what I would like to address as far as actual in-game mechanics and stuff goes. The next elections are still quite a ways away from my understanding. I've told everyone I would get back to them as I figure things out. Besides, isn't the whole point of the CSM to be representatives of the players of EVE? That makes it a similar function as the House of Representatives here in the US. To me, it seems both systems are flawed because not everyone is being equally being represented.

Without getting too much into Religion, do some research on the House and you'll see that the majority of it's members are Christian in some form or fashion. While, if you were to look at the US population, not all of us are Christian. I myself am an Atheist. I'm not being properly represented by that fact alone. That's all just a small portion of it too. The LGBT community isn't being properly represented either.

Which leads me to the CSM. New players aren't being properly represented. Well here I am running for CSM to represent New Players. New players aren't going to understand everything about EVE, I don't either. New players aren't as experienced as the older players, I'm not either. New players are going to make mistakes, I have, and will continue to mistakes, no one is perfect.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2015-07-22 12:53:38 UTC
You talk a lot about representation, but this requires identification from those who choose to vote for you ... I don't see much of an expression of your opinions about the game, what are you doing in EvE, why, what's good, what's bad, why, and how it shall go in future in your opinion. The alternative is to shine with your actions in game, so that people know what you stand for, but this requires time and effort of course. You don't like PvP, that's what I read, but is there more?

I'm my own NPC alt.

Baaldor
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#14 - 2015-07-22 15:01:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Baaldor
Liam Oliphants wrote:
I don't even have an official platform as far as what I would like to address as far as actual in-game mechanics and stuff goes. The next elections are still quite a ways away from my understanding. I've told everyone I would get back to them as I figure things out. Besides, isn't the whole point of the CSM to be representatives of the players of EVE? That makes it a similar function as the House of Representatives here in the US. To me, it seems both systems are flawed because not everyone is being equally being represented.

Without getting too much into Religion, do some research on the House and you'll see that the majority of it's members are Christian in some form or fashion. While, if you were to look at the US population, not all of us are Christian. I myself am an Atheist. I'm not being properly represented by that fact alone. That's all just a small portion of it too. The LGBT community isn't being properly represented either.

Which leads me to the CSM. New players aren't being properly represented. Well here I am running for CSM to represent New Players. New players aren't going to understand everything about EVE, I don't either. New players aren't as experienced as the older players, I'm not either. New players are going to make mistakes, I have, and will continue to mistakes, no one is perfect.


Not sure why you brought up LBGT, religion or politics, this is video game, not a platform for your own political and social views. Now to correct you, 76.4 % of the population of the United States declares themselves as Christians, so your analogy of trying to draw that the majority of the Representatives do not represent the majority of the population is erroneous.

By declaring a run for some representative seat for a video game community, and all you spew is "Change" is very disingenuous. Change for any of us may have different meanings when you actually discuss what "Change" means. with in the same group of like minded individuals, "Change" still has different meanings and each individual may vote as to what they view as the change the want. But when it comes down to it, they have been tricked into believing this is what the platform is and becomes quickly disappointed and bitter towards the system,because the "Change" they voted for was not to be.

So far you have not presented a single thing that "New Players" are screaming for that requires representation. All you will aquire is a bunch of low information voters to make changes to a "Video Game" that they have no idea why it needs to be changed except for some emotionally invested ideas that really either been addressed or some veiled attempt to make some changes that benefit a small majority of the player base.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2015-07-22 16:51:28 UTC
The main problem with making new players your base for votes is the fact that a majority of new players don't vote. They are not directly represented by their own fault or by ignorance that the CSM even exists. That is just one of the hurdles you will have to jump.

But I take offence if you say that new players are not represented. Go into the Rookie Help Chat and you may come across Sugar, Steve, or myself interacting and helping. You don't have to be new to represent new players any more than you have to be an animal to support animal rights. What you need to be is able to communicate, to listen, become known to the voting public. Twitch, blog, podcasts,whatever, step 1 is always get known. I will amend that with getting known/famous in a good way. There are some notorious candidates who are very well known but unlikely to be elected.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Harrigan VonStudly
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#16 - 2015-07-23 13:16:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Harrigan VonStudly
Let's just call this what this is. It's a coathanger up the yazoo.

You're really going to allow your "official" CSM campaign to begin as a post from someone else who started a topic that you happen to agree with? And you're going to research Eve first to learn more about it but want to run for and be on the CSM so you can represent players that are as clueless as you?

There's a red biohazard bag over there for that coat hanger and its catchings ---->
Mynxee
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#17 - 2015-07-23 14:52:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Mynxee
Liam,

By the time the next CSM campaign season and elections roll around, you won't be a new player anymore and will have a very different take on the game, the community, and the CSM if you put in the effort to inform yourself on those fronts.

Before you judge the effectiveness of current and former CSM members relating to new player support, you might want to do some research into what they are actually DOING in-game and out. A few relevant examples: Sugar, Mike, Chance, Cagali Cagali, and even myself. We--and others--have been engaged in helping new players and communicating with CCP in various channels on the subject of new player challenges for awhile now. Incidentally, not all good ideas for helping new players (or anything else) are delivered straight to CCP through the mouths of the sitting CSM. CCP folks are well tuned in to the community via forums, Twitter, the Tweetfleet Slack, and elsewhere. If you want to be in that loop, you need to be tuned into and active in those places.

While more can always be done to help new players get a good start and become invested in the game, I don't see CCP as the primary solution for accomplishing that. Experienced players will *always* do a better job of helping new players get a good start. Yes, Opportunities could be better but they will evolve and hopefully that will happen. Yes, CCP could provide better ways for new players to reliably discover player corps that are a good fit. Yes, CCP could provide tools for more experienced players to use to build custom missions or tutorials for new players (this is me dreaming and wishing, here). But at the end of the day, this is an extremely complex, highly nuanced, meta-driven game. I believe strongly that only through interaction with experienced players can a new player truly discover all there is to EVE in terms of mechanics, options, careers, and more.

If you're serious about campaigning on a "new player voice" platform, I recommend you get informed and start doing something very visible and very tangible to gain credibility. I could point to Chance's WingspanTT videos, Mike's Operation Magic School Bus, Sugar's dedication to helping in the Rookie Help channel, Cagali's newbro focus in BRAVE, and my own corp's mission to help new players get started in exploration, Nova Haven, Pandemic Horde, KarmaFleet, etc. as a good examples of initiatives to help new players. Just having an opinion won't be enough to get you elected, no matter how many words you use to express it.

tl;dr Action speaks louder than words.

Lost in space, looking for sigs...

Blog: Cloaky Wanderer

Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#18 - 2015-07-24 22:18:07 UTC
So I'm not saying I'm the hero of newbros or anything, but surely there are few people more newbish than me who've ever been elected to the CSM? I mean I began my campaign when I was just 8 or so months into being a pilot.

And I'm sure other CSMers can tell you I have a special attraction to non-EVE players as a target audience.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#19 - 2015-07-25 20:38:42 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
So I'm not saying I'm the hero of newbros or anything, but surely there are few people more newbish than me who've ever been elected to the CSM? I mean I began my campaign when I was just 8 or so months into being a pilot.

And I'm sure other CSMers can tell you I have a special attraction to non-EVE players as a target audience.


Welcome to the most infuriating and demoralising part of being on the CSM

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Vikysya
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2015-08-10 22:09:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Vikysya
Liam Oliphants wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Yeah so

Do you know who the members of the CSM are and what platform they ran on?


No I don't.


Let me stop you there. If you don't know who the current CSMs are or have any idea what they represent then how do you know that the interests of new players are not already being represented. You are taking anecdotal evidence that you have overheard in your short time in Eve and assuming it is fact.

Liam Oliphants wrote:
EDIT: After doing a little bit of research into the CSM X campaign, I've discovered that I don't care.


You just keep digging yourself deeper don't you? If you can't even be bothered to continue digging to figure out what the CSMs represent then how can any player of the game trust you to dig and figure out what would actually improve the new player experience.

You keep mentioning that you want change but haven't said anything about what sort of change you will actually try to bring.

I get it, you've said it's early in the campaign and you haven't built a platform yet. Fine. I'd like to assert that you actually start planning something because if you continue making posts like the ones in this thread, nobody is going to take you seriously. That's just the way it is.

I'd also like to say that in my opinion you seem like you are just not ready for a position like this. You find out about CSM and then the next day consider yourself to be what the game needs to improve? I think that is wildly arrogant, especially considering you continuously assert that new players have no representation without actually doing any research so that you can give us evidence of this. I'm going to tell you now that there are current and past CSM members that certainly have New Players in their hearts. All of the CSM's ideas to improve new player experiences are not necessarily implemented by CCP, remember CSM acts as an advising group to CCP, not a controlling body for the direction of the game.

I'm going to use a little bit of Eve terminology below that you will most certainly hear in your time playing Eve if you stick around.

You are not a special snowflake. You are not the first extremely young (game-age) and uninformed player to run for CSM and you won't be the last. Just because you are a new player doesn't mean you know what is best for the new players. To be able to propose solutions to problems you need a deep understanding of the problems that exist and also knowledge of the history of solutions that have been tried. You've already proven that you aren't willing to put in this work with the posts that I quoted. New players don't [necessarily] need a new player to represent them. They need a player that's well-informed of the problems that new players face but also has a deep understanding of the mechanics in this game to be able to provide any sort of useful solution.

I'm sorry if you found this post difficult to read or discouraging. I'm not saying you shouldn't run but you need to put in more effort than you've demonstrated in this thread and I personally think you need a bit more time to mature as a player.
12Next page